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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Operation at the Discretion of the U.S Coast Guard
Jon, I didn't see your post until after I responded to Jay. I didn't know
about the sub rental data. I don't know if I would be comfortable doing
that unless I could have a qualified instructor in each rental sub. Much
like a drivers education car with a brake on the instructors side as well. I
wonder if having a instructor on board would fit in with the current laws?
If it did, then we have some options for making are subs more affordable,
and obtaining upgrades to are equipment with some earnings from time to
time.
With regards to Uboat-Worx, I suspect it wasn't so much to do with how many
passengers if any the subs would carry, but simply that it's a yacht bases
sub, that is competing with the Triton subs, at a much lower cost base. The
Uboat-Worx subs might not in some cases have as many toys aboard, or be able
to go as deep, but they look like a very nice, solid, and well thought out
sub that can see a hell of a lot of ocean. The both have pretty good surface
stability. Of which I'm a big fan of, as you might know.
Regards,
Brent
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jon Wallace" <jonw@psubs.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 6:11 PM
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sub Operation at the Discretion of the U.S
Coast Guard
Correct on all three issues, Ian.
Brent, when you talk to commercial developers keep in mind that they are
thinking in a commercial mindset and so anything they say is likely to be
in a commercial context. The second statement you cited by US Submarines
regarding the Coast Guard and private subs operating in US waters is
simply overly broad, and the same restrictions would apply to a Triton
classed submersible. The Coast Guard can certainly carry out their duties
of policing and enforcement, especially as it applies to security.
However they cannot simply make up rules or act arbitrarily. There is no
US federal law prohibiting the use of personal, non-classed submersibles,
anywhere. Asking you to provide a dive plan or minimally notify them that
you are diving in the vicinity seems like a good practice to me. Stopping
you in the water because they suspect you might be a threat or acting in
an illegal manner is no different then how they act for the same reasons
to any other vessel on the water. However, they cannot enforce something
like "Nah, you can't dive here because your sub is not ABS certified."
That kind of arbitrary enforcement would never survive a legal challenge
(in the US) and I don't believe the Coast Guard is either that stupid or
that arrogant to say such a thing.
Some time ago I did an exhaustive search of all US federal law pertaining
to use of coastal and inland waters under federal jurisdiction. Those are
posted on the website. Go to Resources & Reference and then look for
Guidelines. Those laws apply to PERSONAL use only. If you charge money
to a passenger, or even ask them to contribute to your operating costs
(gas to get to the launch area), you are now operating under commercial
rules and everything changes. Now the Coast Guard owns you. This is one
reason why self-discipline and self-enforcement, through the formation and
adherence to our own guidelines makes sense. It shows we are proactive
and don't need the government looking over our shoulders.
Regarding comments directed toward Uboat-Worx, I attribute those to
competition and marketing. At least one of Uboat-Worx products is a
single seat vessel and from that perspective the comment about not being
able to operate commercially is a red herring. I suspect its pretty
difficult to have a paying passenger when the only seat available is for
the pilot. You'll note when reading through the US federal law that
"renting" a sub for private use is not considered "commercial". So I
could purchase a dozen Uboat-Worx submarines and rent them by the hour to
tourists at some resort, all without violation of US federal law or
requiring any certification whatsoever. In large part, I've witnessed the
underwater business world (subs, scuba, etc) to be pretty much
dog-eat-dog. Get enough rum in me at the rum party and I'll tell you some
stories.
Jon
irox wrote:
Key phrases here are "commercially operate" and "legally carry passengers
for hire", so these
restrictions do not apply to psubs since we are not commercially
operating vessels, nor are we
carrying paying passengers. Also note this clause is not limited to
submersibles/submarines
be any vessel which is carrying paying passengers or being "commercially"
operating.
This is why Carl Stanley doesn't operating in US waters.
Ian.
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