Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pitting Rust against Voids

["James Frankland" <james@guernseysubmarine.com>]

hi vance

>It was kind of ugly in there with all the repairs.

yes, i can imagine.  At least it was inside.  This little bit on mine is outside so it will look a mess if i weld a few runs over it.  im probably being paranoid.  I'll leave it for now and have a think about it, ive got plenty of other things to be getting on with!

regards
james


----- Original Message -----
From: vbra676539@aol.com [mailto:vbra676539@aol.com]
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:25:36 -0500
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pitting Rust against Voids

James,

It probably doesn't, in reality, but it's always good to do repairs. I did not attempt to grind the new metal smooth, as it would have been nearly impossible to get it even, and might have caused more thinning. However, I took a grinder and knocked the tops off the beads, smoothing them down somewhat. It was kind of ugly in there with all the repairs.

Vance


-----Original Message-----
From: James Frankland <james@guernseysubmarine.com>
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 8:17 am
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pitting Rust against Voids



Hi Vance/Brent.

Just reading your posts on the pitting.  Vance, when you did your overlay
repairs, did you grind it smooth afterwards, or just leave the weld beads on?

I've just got one little area about an inch square on mine where i overdid it a
bit with the grinder.  I probably went down half a millimeter by accident.
Im tempted to put a few runs over it.  Not sure if it needs it though.

regards
James


----- Original Message -----
From: vbra676539@aol.com [mailto:vbra676539@aol.com]
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:30:01 -0500
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pitting Rust against Voids

Brent.

Both our subs were factory built, maybe even the same year. It sounds like yours
had bigger QC problems than mine, as the welds are good all the way around down
here in Florida. Mind you, mine was built twice, so to speak. It started off as
a K250, which explains the rolled angle iron frames instead of T-frames. It was
purchased and returned to George for upgrades, including a three hp aft thruster
(which weighs well over 100 pounds!!!!). He also?chopped the acrylic hatch rig
off and added a 4 port steel conning tower and steel hatch, too, plus battery
pods. The sub has definitely been through the mill a couple of times.

I'm ditching the old thrusters in favor of Minn-Kota 101s, one aft on a pivot
and two on a common shaft?just forward of the pressure hull and under the MBT.
Taking a lesson from Carsten, I'm going to try them on and off only, without
electronic motor controls. That gives me three speeds forward and reverse, and
the only worry I have is that even one of those things will be too fast when
operating near the bottom. We'll see.

One of the other problems would be that main ballast shell mating area on the
hull where you had problems. I hate that, so I'm building two tanks to fit
underneath the present shells, which will serve as streamlining and impact
protection only.? Each tank will have a six inch diameter extension for the
bottom opening and one of my pne
umatic poppets on top. This one is sort of a
testbed for what I want to do with the next one, so we'll see how it all works
out.

As far as the pitting is concerned, well, lesson learned. It's all better now. I
plan to keep it that way.

Vance


-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Hartwig <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>
To: PSUBSorg <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 6:43 pm
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pitting Rust against Voids



Nothing to it Vance,?? ;)'

Do you think my sub warranty is void yet??? Sounds like you sub was in much
worse shape then mine.? I have a few relatively small void and rust pitting
areas I'll need to weld up.? Most the bottom area is in great shape, except the
area on the tube that had the lead plates next to it.? Those will have to be
completely over layed. Most of that are is not deeply pitted, but the is a few
deep spots.? I feel much better about what I need to do on mine after hearing
your tale.?

At first I was scared that the bottom on the interior was badly pitted before I
cleaned the sub for the first time, since it was really rough down there. But as
it turns out they installed a type of truck bed liner coating that looks like it
protected that lower hull area very well. There is only a couple of small void
areas just above that coating.? My internal rolled angle iron ribs are in great
shape, other then then need to be blasted and painted.


http://cid-5085d10eb6afe47c.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Aft%20Head%20Voids


Here you can see the biggest pitting area on the top of the aft head, that was
under the FRP MBT.? They didn't use any primer in that area and it needed it.?
Also there are some small voids, that? were in the heads when they were
manufactured, that should of been welded over.?

http://cid-5085d10eb6afe47c.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Aft%20Head%20Voids/DSCN7812.JPG


Here is a picture of the kind of voids that I found next to the head weld beads
from to much power used.? I copper slag blasted a test area.? I couldn't at
firs
t figure out why the "paint" that was in the voids wouldn't blast out after
dwelling on that area for some time.? What I figured out, was that some one was
trying to hide the voids before painting and filled them with a type of rubber
caulking.? Pretty cool right.

http://cid-5085d10eb6afe47c.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Aft%20Head%20Voids/DSCN7806.JPG


Regards,
Szybowski




To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Side Thruster Removal on K-250 #118
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:15:22 -0500
From: vbra676539@aol.com

Brent,

I sympathize. The same thing happened to my K350 and we burned better than
thirty pounds of rod putting in overlays to get the wall thickness on the hull
cylinder back to something safe. I had some deep pits (although small in cross
section). Two areas were down to about .125". We used acoustic reflective
thickness measuring in a 1" grid pattern to map all that out, and ended up
throwing our hands in the air and overlaying very nearly all of the bilge from
the aft ellipse (which was okay) forward for almost two feet! Plus there were?a
handful of small spots forward of that. We even had to do some buildup on the
ring stiffeners in a few places. Man, you talk about putting some hours in
behind a welding hood!!! I'm here to tell you, that was a job.

Now I'm rebuilding the main ballast supports, and I've still got to add a couple
of penetrators. All that and be ready for sandblast and paint by the end of
February. Nothing to it, right?

Vance


-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Hartwig <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>
To: PSUBSorg <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 6:54 pm
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Side Thruster Removal on K-250 #118




Hi? Frank,

The sub has been painted a couple of times, and so I'm not sure what exactly
they did.? I think the original paint is still there, since it doesn't look like
the sub has ever been sanded or sand blasted.? All the little weld splatter is
still there, of which would of been very easy for th
em to sand off.? From the
looks of it, I would guess they only did stick welding on the sub, and did it
very quickly.? There is some voids next to some of the weld beads that look like
they used to much power for those welds, and then didn't make another bead to
clean it up. I plan to TIG those voids up. ? I have some pictures in regards to
this I'll post in a bit.

I've sanded some test areas, and there is a pretty good gray primer at the base
that is still protecting most of the exterior.? I don't see any of that primer
on the interior, so I think they skipped that coat in there.? Most the rust on
the sub is from it being left outside for the last 10 plus years, and allowing
water to get in thru a open hatch and not draining it.? I cleaned up the mud,
loose paint, and water about a year before I acquired the sub and drilled a .25"
hole at the bottom of each ribbed section, so it would at least drain, and not
deteriorate as fast as it was if it stayed there longer.?

The worst rust pitting is were the lead slabs were attached,since they didn't
put any spacers between the lead and the painted metal.? That area couldn't
breath and dry out easily.? So I might need to replace the main steel vertical
panels on both skids, as well as the lower horizontal strip, with SS.


Regards,
Szybowski




From: ShellyDalg@aol.com
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:58:27 -0500
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Side Thruster Removal on K-250 #118
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org


Hi Brent. Good pics. What type of paint was used on George's subs? I see where
the rust has gotten pretty bad in some spots, and I wonder if it's caused by
simple lack of maintenance, or not enough protection in the first place. Heavy
zinc paint stands up well if maintained properly. Where two components are
bolted together, there are several solutions to prevent rust. Delrin disks,
bushings inside the bolt holes, judicious painting of all exposed parts,
stainless, anodes, and lots of other ideas/methods are easy solutions.

I designed my s
ub so I can dis-assemble it quickly and easily for
maintenance/repair. I should be able to strip it down to the bare hull and
re-assemble it in a day, with minimal tools. That way I will be able to get it
clean after dives, and touch-up any paint that needs it, without having to sit
in the shop for a week. I like the idea of putting plastic/nylon bushings in the
bolt holes. Stainless bolts and nylon/stainless washers, so the potential for
rust is lessened. There are some places where I'll be using brass bolts with
stainless nuts, and some places where I'll use lead bolts with stainless nuts. I
have some parts that need to be very strong, and others that are designed to
break-away if needed. Brass fasteners are good in some spots because they may
need to be drilled out for removal. Here's a quick sketch of one place where
it's needed.

Because the fairing covers the mounting tab, I'll be welding a stainless nut
onto the bottom of the tab. The brass bolt head can be cut/ground off if need be
to remove the fairing. The nylon bushing keeps the different metals from
corroding together, and once the brass bolt head is gone, the bushing and
fairing can be lifted off. Then some vise grips will pull out the brass bolt, or
if needed, drill out the bolt because it's soft. This of course will only be
necessary if I don't maintain that particular connection and allow it to get
crusty.

http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=1578526&pid=10804946&myphotos=1

Spare bushings, washers, brass bolts, etc are just a few things to carry along
in the field for repairs/maintenance. I want to be able to repair this thing
with a minimum of tools when I'm out some where remote. Frank D.

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