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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Important PSUBS Info - Please Read
Hi Jon,
I am a member of this group since many years. Just lurking now because of a
divorce, building a new home, women and such minor things. The parts of my
sub i build are under a thick layer of dust. So rather accidentaly a read
something about membership. To be honest i missed the discussion but i am
willing to be a member. I suppose the details have been discussed on this
group already so maybe you can inform me privately about the costs and how
to pay my contribution.
Greatings from The Netherlands,
Thijs Struijs
thijs-struijs@planet.nl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Wallace" <jonw@psubs.org>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Important PSUBS Info - Please Read
Thank you all for your comments. We certainly have stirred things up a
bit I guess.
I thoroughly understand your concerns as they have been expressed, and I
think we have taken precautions to create a membership that does not
unreasonably isolate or exclude anyone, is not elitist (newbie to expert
are welcome), does not restrict people from researching information, and
arguably does not restrict anyone from participating in online
discussions. If it were our intent to form an exclusive membership of
elitists, it would be very easy to do. I would simply clear the mailing
list, only add the people we wanted to participate, and then block
everyone else by ensuring I was the only one who could add people to the
list instead of letting people register on their own. Clearly we have not
taken this approach and I would ask that you all give it a chance, and
let's see how it unfolds. As we find things that don't work, we can
change them.
Regarding finances, we truly appreciate the offers that most of you have
made to donate money and support us. For those who have stated they were
willing to donate money to myself and Ray for operational costs, we ask
that you join PSUBS instead and support the organization through your
membership. From a business perspective it is better for any revenue to
go through PSUBS LLC, than myself or Ray privately. Your hard earned
money is better accounted for that way, and the government is happier that
way. It is not only a more legitimate way of doing business, but from a
financial perspective it will eventually lead to much better budgeting and
forecasting abilities than our current method which goes something like,
"hey Ray, how many t-shirts do you think we'll sell this year?"
Trying to secure some revenue for operations is only one reason for
creating a membership, and from my perspective not the most important one.
More important is the additional structure and legitimacy that membership
will provide the organization so we can secure recognition and respect
within the industry we are part of. This is the next step from just being
"a group of guys who talk about submarines", to an organization that has
influence and can draw the attention of industry peers as we grow. As a
legitimate organization we at least have a footing to work with when we
need, or want, the attention of our industry peers or potential speakers
for our conventions. This is hardly a threatening proposition. A "group
of guys casually talking" in a forum has little influence and legitimacy
to anyone other than the individuals participating in the discussion, and
even that is dependent upon the level of respect they hold for each other.
There is unquestionably much more potential for any one individual to be
excluded from the discussion between a "group of guys talking" in an
unorganized forum, than within a formal organization such as we are
proposing. It's somewhat ironic to note that the accolades numerous
people have extended regarding their experience with PSUBS over the years
is due to the fact that we have operated it in nearly the identical format
that we now simply want to formalize.
If all that is needed is a central location where a group of guys can go
to share information about their submarine, then PSUBS.ORG has fulfilled
its initial purpose and at the same time outlived it's usefulness. In
1997 when we formed PSUBS, the resources available today on the Internet
did not exist. Free websites, free email, free mailing lists, free
groups, and free web forums were simply not available. In 1997, our
domain name cost us $100/year. Today you can get domain names for about
$5.00 a year. We needed people with systems and software expertise, who
had good reliable hardware available, and a good internet backbone.
Today, with the free resources available on the Internet, there's no
requirement for any of that and no need for Ray or myself to host a
website or maintain a mailing list and web forum. Accordingly, there is
no need to donate money to Ray or myself for that level of service since
any one of you can open your own submarine list on a free server from
google or yahoo, and perform the same function. If all that is needed is
an informal group without structure, then we don't have to worry about
coordinating conventions, giving out awards, finding speakers, or fronting
money for expenses associated with them. Whenever the urge hits someone,
they can simply announce on the informal group list of their choice that
they are hosting a "sub-diving" weekend at their particular location.
Everyone who can make it, just finds a place to stay where they can, and
comes and goes as they please. You put your photos up on Flickr, you put
your video up on YouTube, and then simply put links to the same in your
messages to the group. You might have to put up with advertisements on a
free server, but you can always ask for donations from the group and pay a
fee so that the advertisements are suppressed.
PSUBS.ORG has outgrown a single purpose charter that limits it as a
resource to meet other people interested in talking about home-built
submarines. It has exceeded that goal by any measurement and should be
allowed to grow into other areas that benefit us as a group rather than
solely as individuals. We will be well served as individuals if we allow
PSUBS to become an organization that can represent us as a group and have
both impact and influence on our industry peers. Additionally, PSUBS has
grown bigger than any one of us, including myself and Ray. It has both
the visibility and momentum to survive us into another generation and
should be organized to do exactly that. The concept of having a formal
membership is foreign to us, but in 12 years we have come as far as we are
ever going to get in our current form. PSUBS is recognized worldwide, but
you won't find ABS or ASME sitting at our table, you won't find industry
partnering with us, and you won't find the Coast Guard, Navy, Federal or
local governments willing to talk about any concerns we might have,
because we are just a "group of guys who talk about submarines". Respect,
recognition, and acceptance come at the expense of some amount of
structure and management. The membership plan we have put in place is as
non-exclusive as you will find anywhere in regards to its impact on
non-members.
For those who share our vision, we welcome you to join us as a member and
help propel PSUBS into new areas, while maintaining what we have built
over the past 12 years. For those who feel this new vision is not worthy,
you are welcome to continue using our non-member services as they suit
you, and monitor our progress in hopes you see value in our vision at a
future time. If we must part ways because you feel you can do better by
forming your own group and move in your own direction, we wish you no
ill-will and hope we can work together with you in the future.
Jon
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The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
from our organization.
If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
link below or send a blank email message to:
removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
our server receiving your request.
PSUBS.ORG
PO Box 53
Weare, NH 03281
603-529-1100
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