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Brent,
Wow, you definatly hit the mother load of valves on the Pampanito web site
! I reviewed it quickly, there is a lot of information there !
I've been on the Pampanito a number of times, talked my way to the conning tower
! which is normaly closed of to the public. A lot of
different ways to skin the cat, I guess it's just a matter of your
individual application. Have to go now.
Brian
Brian, I'll have to check
out the large PVC spring check valves. I better stay up later and
produce models faster. :}'
I was thinking that is
would be great to have a couple of solid configurations that I could make for
myself and others if they so desired, as well as post the drawings and specs
so folks could make there own as well, if they wished
to.
I was
thinking I had seen some interesting vent valves on the WWII sub USS Pampanito
and I had and hit the mother load. Here In Figure 4-6.
WRT BLOW AND WRT OVERFLOW INTERLOCKING SYSTEM. there are two
interesting valve configurations you might find interesting
http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/air/chap4.htm
In
Figure 5-4. The 10-pound blow (flapper)
valve. is a hinge type valve. Notice the inset gasket in the
plunger face and the way it seals against a single large ridge on the land.
Perhaps the glued that gasket in.
Figure 5-5. List control
damper. showes yet another sealing means.
Figure 5-6. The 10-pound
blowing system swing check valve. shows another configuration of a
hinge type valve with a plunger/disc having the gasket mounted to
it. It looks like I might need to move my hinge axis up some
what and perhaps beef up the hinge as well.
http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/air/chap5.htm
Regards,
Szybowski
From: ojaivalleybeefarm@dslextreme.com
To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT
valve
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:24:22 -0800
Brent,
Frank
suggested a piston type looking thing that has a small diameter shaft in the
middle, and then the actual sealing plunger is like what you currently
have. Maybe take a look a large pvc spring check valve and see how
they design those valves. Your idea is just like that except it has a
control arm which opens and closes the valve. Or, something that
you may have already touched on, would be like a spring loaded check
valve and then the opening mechanism would push the valve open and the spring
would do the closing for you as you turn the handle linkage. But
that might not be what you want since it would be a momentary type control
valve. The other option is to have a actual piston which moves into a
position where there is a open passage for water/air to escape, kind of
like a giant hydralic control valve where there are passage ways for different
functions like on a fork lift or whatever. You wouldn't want too
much of a bearing surface however because of friction.
Better hurry and design it though ! 'cause
I'm going to need something like that soon.
Brian
"all this ,will someday come to pass, in Gods good
time" Cpt
Nemo
Hi Brian, Do you
have any materials in mind for the tube and piston. I can see a couple
of different configurations that have a piston riding inside a tube, with
holes at the top of the tube to allow the air out. Perhaps the piston
can be guided with spring rings, guide wheels mounted in the piston, or
other means. I can see the piston being moved by the same type of
spring loaded pneumatic actuator as we have been discussing, and having the
actuator mounted as it is on my last model. Meaning the piston would not be
moving collinear to the axis of the piston, allowing for the assembly to be
in a tighter spot as it is on my K boat.
If one has more room to work
with then I think a assembly like Jays would be easier to make and install
then my hinge type or your piston type, as I currently see them in my head.
I'll make a third assembly based on your suggestion, when I finish the other
two I'm in the middle of now.
Szybowski
From: ojaivalleybeefarm@dslextreme.com
To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT
valve
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:26:23 -0800
Brent,
What about making the valve a cylinder and have a bore that it travels
in. That way you would be assured that it would seat. Just a
thought.
Brian
That's not fun. I
tried it when I'm not signed in on a PC and a Mac, and it worked good for
me. Perhaps it's one of those things were you have to hold your breath and
think good thoughts. ;)'
Your a flickr.com fan, so
this might do the trick.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12242379@N05/
If you click on the
upper right hand corner of the pictures, you can see and download them in
a better size and quality if you wish.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12242379@N05/3198294928/sizes/l/
Szybowski
From: bottomgun@mindspring.com
To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT
valve
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:15:00 -0500
Brent,
This
URL is buried someplace within Windows Live it appears and is
inaccessible.
R/Jay
Respectfully,
Jay
K. Jeffries
Andros
Is., Bahamas
As
scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the
demand.
-Josh
Billings
From:
owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brent
Hartwig
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:47 PM
To:
PSUBSorg
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT
valve
I think this
should fit the bill Hugh. I remembered that I had set my limit
mate on the plunger land sub assembly to only allow the plunger to open to
20 degrees. So here it is at 40 degrees with a touch of Photoworks
rendering thrown in for good
measure.
http://cid-5085d10eb6afe47c.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Open%20to%2040%20degrees
Regards,
Szybowski
From:
brenthartwig@hotmail.com
To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT
valve
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:02:12 -0800
Hi Hugh,
Design review is one of the primary reasons why I
posted it, so it's all good.
There is a couple things going on in my assembly,
first the material I needed to add to the plunger above the O-ring, so It
would meet the bottom of the FRP cap that I cut out of the main FRP shell,
partly gets in the way when the valve is only opened part way as
shown. Adding that material and attaching the FRP cap, is mostly for
a clean look and a touch of hydrodynamics, which I'm not to worried
about.
I did
intend to open that valve farther, and there is plenty of room to do
so, but was having trouble with my mates on the plunger land part and
was not able to lock the plunger land to the MBT as I had planned.
It sits at about a 6.5031433...... angle and usually I can mate a odd
angle to other planes and/or surfaces and lock things down, but ever since
I reloaded my software I've not been able to ferret out the glitch.
At any rate your correct, and the valve needs to open further. There
is a fancy new locking mate feature on Solidworks 2008, but as luck would
have it I have 2007. But with assembly mates there is more ways then
one to skin a cat, so I'll just keep poking at it. If I try to open the
valve further as I currently have it, the plunger land starts to move down
with the plunger. Which of course is not what I need to
happen.
From:
hc.fulton@gmail.com
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:25:24
+1300
Brent,
Just
a comment on your MBT valve. If you alter the depth of the eat area
so that when it is open it has a larger gap it would help. With
valves you should have ¼ x diameter lift opening for the same area as the
hole.
Yours
appears to only have about ¼ inch opening. What is the ratio of
vertical gap to diameter in your drawing? It is what we call design
review. Hope it helps. Hugh.
.
From:
owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brent
Hartwig
Sent: 13 January 2009 17:30
To:
PSUBSorg
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT valve
Hey
Jay,
That assembly looks like it will work well to me, and
doesn't look to hard to manufacture, install, or maintain. It's good to
see some of your CAD work. It's basically along the lines of what I
was thinking of doing when I first started to think about large venting
options and from what I was thinking Vances mushroom vents might look
like. Having the closure spring inside the pneumatic actuator
simplifies things for use both. I like the sealing grooves you used. I had
thought at first that the mushroom vents would be partly above the MBT's
to let all the air out of the tanks and mount them. But both are
assemblies are basically hidden, and yet still let most of the air
out. Your blue components, namely the piston and the piston land, I
think might be able to be made out of UHMW plastic or the like, or
even acrylic for that matter. But I like UHMW for it's ease of machining,
much cheaper then SS, it's light so that helps in keeping the weight down
(since these are mounted higher up in the subs), and it's very corrosion
resistant as far as I'm aware of.
I can see how I could blend your assembly with mine
by using your type of upper rubber gasket and grooved plunger/piston, and
then just use a SS or UHMW retaining ring to hold the gasket in place
basically in the same way you've secured the gasket on
yours. The main reason I switched over my thinking from a piston to
a hinged plunger assembly was that the top of my MBT's are right next to
the knuckle curvature of the steel heads, and my MBT's are not even close
to flat on top, unless I modify
them.
"Want
to mount the complete valve assembly on the tank surface so that if there
is give between the hull and the tank surface, closing tolerances and
alignment will not be affected."
This point I believe is a good one, and this is why I
left as much thickness to my plunger land as I did. I could even add
some additional thickness to the underside of the FRP tank shell to beef
things up in that area if need be. I can see how that might be good
for your assembly as well, not for making it seal better like mine, but
primarily for keeping the FRP tank rigid over time. Also I hope to
have less trouble with my assembly from any flexing or alignment issues by
using a good large soft O-ring(s) or gasket.
Your mentioning having the complete valve assembly on
the tanks surface to better deal with alignment issues, gave me an idea of
how I could do that with my basic hinge type assembly, and not have to
weld the two SS tabs onto the pressure hulls steel heads. I would need to
add about a 1/4" of FRP to the bottom of the upper area of the MBT's to
beef it up to handle this new configuration. So that means it's back
to the salt mines to work up another assembly model. ;)' Thank
goodness for soft office chairs.
From:
bottomgun@mindspring.com
To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] MBT
valve
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 03:23:15 -0500
Brent &
Vance,
Thanks for
taking the lead with the illustration of a MBT valve. I have taken
the liberty to play with the design some, see the 3 images at http://flickr.com/photos/bottomgun
in the MBT Vent Valve group. I believe if you have a FLICKR account,
you can view the images at a higher resolution.
Some
thoughts:
1.
Want to
minimize number of moving parts
2.
Want to
minimize the number of hinge points
3.
Want to mount
the complete valve assembly on the tank surface so that if there is give
between the hull and the tank surface, closing tolerances and alignment
will not be affected.
4.
Want seating
surfaces to mate square on to insure complete closing of valve
5.
Seating
surface material should be above the valve disk so sand or other matter
doesn’t settle on it and allow air to leak
6.
Seating
material should be a soft elastic material
7.
Operating
cylinder should fail in the valve closed position (some cylinders have
springs installed and air pressure operates against the spring below the
piston, not sure if Bimba has this capability)
Bimba
cylinders, 3-D models in various formats are available on their web
site:
http://www.bimba.com/
R/Jay
Respectfully,
Jay K.
Jeffries
Andros Is.,
Bahamas
As
scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the
demand.
-Josh
Billings
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