Dean,
Excellent results are being had with the Hummingbird unit (model
977 I think). You have to build your towfish (Carsten had a spare for
sale) and add some cable (up to 300 ft.). You should be able to do all of
this I think for under $1500.
R/Jay
Respectfully,
Jay K. Jeffries
Andros Is., Bahamas
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
- Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Recon1st@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:35 AM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
Side scan for sure would be Ideal. Budget will hinder me on this
one. Seems like last I new
a unit that would do the job is much more than I will have in the
entire sub.
I have worked with our local search and Rescue with around a
$100,000 unit and it would be
In a message dated 8/29/2008 9:18:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
ag@desertstar.com writes:
Dean,
You may want to consider doing initial acquisition of a target with a side scan
from the surface.
Cheaper and you can go faster. Then break out the sub when you want to
explore/document a target in
detail. Perhaps not as fun as 100% sub, but will probably be quicker.
Hope you find some great wrecks.
-a
-----Original message-----
From: Recon1st@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:11:01 -0700
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> Hi Ian my goal of 6kts is because of the reason for building.
> I want to explore Lake Superior. From what I can tell from soundings,
most
> of the bottom is
> featureless flat bottom. Thousands of ship wrecks etc and I want to
find and
> document at
> least one.
>
> So the real reason is my age. Lake Superior is large and there is so
little
> time.
>
> Visibility is good up to 100' or so, and I would like to cruise above
the
> bottom 20 30 feet, to view
> the maximum area. I do have general areas that some of the more famous
ones
> went
> missing, but once again a lot of ground to cover and mostly boring.
>
> Many good points have been raised about brakes and I think I understand
the
> concerns.
> My best safety procedure is not to tread in waters deeper than 350'.
I
> totally understand
> that this is a lot of speed and possibly dangerous.
>
> Speed will only be used when I feel safe doing so, and for sure a good
look
> at the search
> area with surface sonar will be standard operating.
>
> Forward searching sonar is a must for avoidance, reverse thrust
and very
> quick maneuverability are
> my other solutions. Murky water would be a complete NO NO
>
> Besides all else I am going to paint it pretty and will not stand for
any
> scratches
>
> Dean
>
>
> In a message dated 8/28/2008 3:03:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> irox@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> kind of similar to Andy's "lots of reverse" idea: If
you plan to travel at
> 6knots, then your motor must be able to deliver the required thrust
to get
> you to that speed. So, why not just select a motor which can
deliver 4x
> (or what ever multipler is appropriate) the force you need and have
a
> "full emergency reverse" button which would use the full
power of the motor
> to slow the sub down - idealy the emergency reverse speed would cut
off
> after a certain period. You would only ever use at maximum 1/4
power for
> non-emergency operations. We know reverse works and this would
involve
> only beefing up components that are already going to be used (i.e.,
no
> new inventions, research and risk required).
>
> I've read this thread out of order, so maybe this was already
discussed.
>
> Dean, what's the reason the sub needs to travel so fast?
>
> Cheers,
> Ian.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Andrew Goldstein <ag@desertstar.com>
> >Sent: Aug 27, 2008 7:00 AM
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> >
> >The following should be filed under "insane" and not
attempted without A
> LOT of testing etc, but for the sake of discussion,
> >
> >A primary benefit of the small sub is enhanced dynamics and low
inertia,
> which makes systems which are not viable on a large sub possibly
interesting.
> Think deep flight vs an SSN....
> >
> >If truly for "extreme and eminent" collision, it seems
that it may be
> possible to add a few extra external scuba tanks and some
> >regulators and a control manifold inside the hull. These
extra bottles
> could normally be held in reserve for backup buoyancy or as a
redundant ballast
> blow system. Or in an emergency move a valve on the manifold
and blow A LOT
> of air forward of the sub.
> >An air jet break. It has the added benefit that if
you design it wrong
> you may instead get aft firing torpedoes :)
> >
> >-a
> >
> >
> >-----Original message-----
> >From: Recon1st@aol.com
> >Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:48:58 -0700
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> >
> >> R/Jay I understand this problem. And my thoughts are only
and extreme
> >> eminent collision would this
> >> be deployed to avoid or lesson the impact of a collision.
If ever
> deployed
> >> surfacing is required.
> >> my prop will be shrouded and foul proofed rudder.
> >>
> >> The one scenario I can think of that would not be a good
idea to deploy
> >> would be running into a
> >> fish net. Sure do not need any thing else getting tied up.
But for the
> >> boulder that will jump up
> >> and smack me, I do think this is a viable solution.
> >>
> >> Dean
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 8/26/2008 11:30:56 A.M. Central Daylight
Time,
> >> bottomgun@mindspring.com writes:
> >>
> >>
> >> Dean,
> >> You have to be concerned with the chute fouling your
propulsion/steering
>
> >> motors. A big sub could just shred the drogue while
you could lose
> propulsion
> >> just when you need it most. Remember that the Navy
decided that drogues
> and
> >> speed brakes were a bad idea after much testing and
stuck with operating
> >> within the envelope.
> >> R/Jay
> >>
> >> Respectfully,
> >> Jay K. Jeffries
> >> Andros Is., Bahamas
> >> Talk sense to a fool and he calls you
foolish.
> >> - Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
> >>
> >>
> >> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf
Of
> Recon1st@aol.com
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:51 AM
> >> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> >>
> >>
> >> I did not know these were tried on military subs. I
just thought it was
> a
> >> good idea to be able
> >>
> >> to stop quicker.
> >>
> >> I do think for my purposes just the sea anchor blown
out of it's housing
>
> >> would be best for
> >>
> >> my needs. Seems like the manual brake flaps would be
quite complicated
> and
> >> slower than
> >>
> >> I would like.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dean
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 8/25/2008 7:43:51 P.M. Central
Daylight Time,
> >> brenthartwig@hotmail.com writes:
> >>
> >> Dean,
> >>
> >> I found a couple more items. I'm having trouble finding a
picture of the
> >> flaps open. I had one a while back.
> >>
> >>
>
http://imageevent.com/albacore/albacorehistoricphotos;jsessionid=r9qabaad11.ti
> >>
ger_s?n=25&z=2&w=0&x=0&c=4&m=24&p=24
> >> "The parachutes were attached to the after end of
Albacore's fairwater
> >> and successfully streamed while the ship was cruising
submerged. The
> >> resulting
> >> deceleration curves indicated that such a system
effectively aided in
> >> emergency recovery."
> >> Project "Bailout" might not have been the
most successful of Albacore's
> >> tests but it certainly showed some creativity was at
work."
> >>
> >> http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Brent Hartwig
> >>
> >> ____________________________________
> >>
> >> From: brenthartwig@hotmail.com
> >> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> >> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:03:24 -0700
> >>
> >> Dean,
> >>
> >> You could install some sort of stopping flaps (speed
brakes) on both
> sides
> >> of your sub that are curved to fit the shape of your
hull. Much like a
> US Navy
> >> test sub USS Albacore. Then operate them with
hydraulics or adapted
> electric
> >> actuators starting with a unit like the Lenco Trim
Tab actuators.
> >>
> >> I've been planning on having this type or braking
system on my winged
> >> underwater gliding subs. With two stopping flaps on
the training edge of
> the wings.
> >> One opening up, and one down at the same time.
> >> "Built as a test bed for the U.S. Navy, the Albacore
featured a
> >> tear-drop shaped hull, new diving controls, a dorsal
rudder and a new
> >> high-yield steel for her pressure hull. In addition,
the Navy, at one
> time
> >> or another, experimented with speed brakes,
contra-rotating screws, a
> >> drag chute, camouflage paint and three different
arrangements of stern
> >> control surfaces.
> >> The NSF report ignited debate within Navy circles over a
variety of
> >> issues such as the merits of twin propellers vs.
singles, and the
> sacrifice
> >> of surface stability for undersea speed. The result of
the
> recommendations
> >> and ensuing debate was the U.S.S. Albacore.
> >>
> >> The Dorsal rudder was reinstalled and enlarged and the boat
> >> was outfitted with speed brakes. These brakes -
another concept borrowed
> >> from aviation - technology, consisted of 10 hinged
panels ringing the
> >> after part of the ship. When needed, they were
hydraulically opened into
>
> >> the waterflow, bringing the boat to a rapid
stop."
> >>
> >> http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Albacore_(AGSS-569)
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Brent Hartwig
> >>
> >> ____________________________________
> >>
> >> From: Recon1st@aol.com
> >> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:55:44 -0400
> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air Tanks
> >> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Frank I am using 12hp for my main propulsion. I gave
up trying to
> calculate
> >> speed but I should have
> >>
> >> plenty. The reason for so much maneuverability is the
bottom of Lake
> >> Superior many granite boulders
> >>
> >> etc. I will need to travel pretty fast to cover any
amount of the Lake.
> I am
> >> thinking of a 20 to 30' above the
> >>
> >> bottom but at 6 knots or so when one of those big
beast jumps up in
> front of
> >> me, I am going to need
> >>
> >> options. A transfer pump or sliding weight for sure
would not fit my
> needs.
> >> I may even have an
> >>
> >> emergency sea anchor deployment for quick stops.
Reverting back to my
> drag
> >> racing days.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I loved the dry dive video. I learned much watching
it maneuver I have
> >> greater confidence that my
> >>
> >> efforts should yield the kind of performance I am
looking for. Not to
> >> mention it oughta be a real
> >>
> >> hoot to drive hehehhe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dean
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 8/24/2008 8:15:39 P.M. Central
Daylight Time,
> >> ShellyDalg@aol.com writes:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Dean. I think you're chasing the right idea with
front and back dive
> >> planes. I had considered that but let it go because of the
extra work. It
> just
> >> seems to me that back dive planes would be a real plus if
you have
> enough
> >> power to make them work. Did you see the "dry
dive" videos? With the
> center
> >> mounted dive planes the sub stays level when
ascending/diving but it
> would be nice
> >> to be able to angle the sub just with the dive
planes. Like you say,
> much
> >> like flying. I don't know how much speed you'd have to
get to make the
> dive
> >> planes overcome the front/back balance, but if it's
close enough to
> neutral, it
> >> may not take that much power.
> >>
> >> Twin trim tanks front and back with a transfer pump
would help if the
> pump
> >> was able to shift weight fast enough. Maybe a sliding
drop weight would
> be
> >> less trouble to make. I will be able to shift the
seat forward and
> backward a
> >> little and I'm hoping that will give me a little angle
change. Damn, I
> wanna
> >> get this thing wet soon! Frank D.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ____________________________________
> >>
> >> It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find
your travel deal
> _here_
> >>
(http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ____________________________________
> >>
> >> It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find
your travel deal
> _here_
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ____________________________________
> >>
> >> It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find
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> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >
> >
>
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