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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps Now inexpensive sidescans



Dean,

I think this might have been mentioned before, but.

There are a few lower cost side scans on the market.  A really nice one like a kline or marine sonics are gonna
be 10's of thousands.  But the following are pretty afforadable:

http://www.starfishsonar.com/

And humming bird makes one (dont have a link...)

Both less than $5K.


I'm not sure if the hummingbird one has a towfish or not, but the starfish does so it may be more suitable for deeper work.


-a


-----Original message-----
From: Recon1st@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:39:11 -0700
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps

> Side scan for sure would be Ideal. Budget will hinder me on this one. Seems  
> like last I new
> a unit that would do the job is much more than I will have in the entire  sub.
>  
> I have worked with our local search and Rescue with around a $100,000 unit  
> and it would be
> nice. heheh more toys 
>  
> Dean
>  
>  
> In a message dated 8/29/2008 9:18:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> ag@desertstar.com writes:
> 
> Dean,
> 
> You may want to consider doing initial acquisition of a  target with a side 
> scan from the surface.
> Cheaper and you can go  faster.  Then break out the sub when you want to 
> explore/document a  target in
> detail.  Perhaps not as fun as 100% sub, but will probably  be quicker.
> 
> Hope you find some great  wrecks.
> 
> -a
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original message-----
> From:  Recon1st@aol.com
> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:11:01 -0700
> To:  personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping  Flaps
> 
> > Hi Ian my goal of 6kts is because of the reason for  building. 
> > I want to explore Lake Superior. From what I can tell from  soundings, most 
>  
> > of the bottom is
> > featureless flat  bottom. Thousands of ship wrecks etc and I want to find  
> and 
> >  document at
> > least one.
> >  
> > So the real reason is my  age. Lake Superior is large and there is so 
> little  
> >  time.
> >  
> > Visibility is good up to 100' or so, and I would  like to cruise above the  
> > bottom 20 30 feet, to view
> > the  maximum area. I do have general areas that some of the more famous 
> ones   
> > went
> > missing, but once again a lot of ground to cover and  mostly boring.
> >  
> > Many good points have been raised about  brakes and I think I understand 
> the  
> > concerns.
> > My best  safety procedure is not to tread in waters deeper than 350'. I  
> >  totally understand
> > that this is a lot of speed and possibly  dangerous.
> >  
> > Speed will only be used when I feel safe  doing so, and for sure a good 
> look  
> > at the search
> > area  with surface sonar will be standard operating.
> >  
> > Forward  searching sonar is a must for avoidance, reverse thrust  and  very 
>  
> > quick maneuverability are
> > my other solutions. Murky water  would be a complete NO NO  
> >  
> > Besides all else I am  going to paint it pretty and will not stand for any  
> >  scratches
> >  
> > Dean
> >  
> >  
> > In  a message dated 8/28/2008 3:03:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> >  irox@ix.netcom.com writes:
> > 
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > kind  of similar to Andy's "lots of reverse" idea:   If you plan to travel  
> at
> > 6knots, then your motor must be able to deliver  the required  thrust to get
> > you to that speed.  So, why not just select  a  motor which can deliver 4x
> > (or what ever multipler is appropriate)  the  force you need and have a
> > "full emergency reverse" button  which would use  the full power of the 
> motor
> > to slow the sub down  - idealy the emergency  reverse speed would cut off
> > after a  certain period.  You would only  ever use at maximum 1/4 power  for
> > non-emergency operations.  We know  reverse works and  this would involve
> > only beefing up components that are  already  going to be used (i.e., no
> > new inventions, research and risk   required).
> > 
> > I've read this thread out of order, so maybe this  was  already discussed.
> > 
> > Dean, what's the reason the sub  needs to travel so  fast?
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Ian.
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original  Message-----
> > >From: Andrew  Goldstein  <ag@desertstar.com>
> > >Sent: Aug 27, 2008 7:00  AM
> > >To:  personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >Subject:  Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping  Flaps
> > >
> > >The  following should be filed under "insane" and not  attempted without A 
>  
> > LOT of testing etc, but for the sake of  discussion,
> >  >
> > >A primary benefit of the small sub is enhanced  dynamics  and low inertia, 
> > which makes systems which are not viable on a  large  sub possibly 
> interesting.  
> > Think  deep flight  vs an  SSN....
> > >
> > >If truly for "extreme and  eminent" collision, it seems  that it may be 
> > possible to add a  few extra external scuba tanks and some  
> > >regulators and a  control manifold inside the hull.  These extra  bottles 
> >  could normally be held in reserve for backup buoyancy or as a  redundant  
> ballast 
> > blow system.  Or in an emergency move a valve on  the  manifold and blow A 
> LOT 
> > of air forward of the sub.
> >  >An air jet  break.   It has the added benefit that if you  design it 
> wrong 
> > you  may instead get aft firing torpedoes   :)
> > >
> > >-a
> > >
> > >
> >  >-----Original  message-----
> > >From:  Recon1st@aol.com
> > >Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008  13:48:58  -0700
> > >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >Subject:  Re:  [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> > >
> > >> R/Jay I  understand this  problem. And my thoughts are only and extreme  
>  
> > >> eminent  collision would this
> > >> be  deployed to avoid or lesson the impact of  a collision. If ever   
> > deployed 
> > >> surfacing  is  required.
> >  >> my prop will be shrouded and foul proofed rudder.  
> >  >>  
> > >> The one scenario I can think of that would  not  be a good idea to 
> deploy  
> > >> would be running  into  a
> > >> fish net. Sure do not need any thing else  getting tied up. But  for the 
>  
> > >> boulder that will  jump up
> > >> and smack me,  I do think this is a viable  solution.
> > >>  
> > >>  Dean
> >  >>  
> > >>  
> > >> In a message  dated  8/26/2008 11:30:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> >  >>  bottomgun@mindspring.com writes:
> > >> 
> >  >>  
> > >>  Dean, 
> > >> You  have  to be concerned with the chute fouling your  
> propulsion/steering  
> >  
> > >> motors.  A big sub could just   shred the drogue while you could lose  
> > propulsion 
> >  >> just when  you need it most.  Remember that the Navy  decided  that 
> drogues 
> > and  
> > >> speed brakes  were a bad idea after much testing and stuck   with 
> operating  
> > >> within the envelope. 
> > >> R/Jay  
> >  >>  
> > >> Respectfully, 
> > >> Jay   K.  Jeffries 
> > >> Andros  Is., Bahamas 
> >  >> Talk  sense  to a fool and he calls you  foolish.   
> > >> - Euripides (484  BC - 406  BC)
> > >>  
> > >>  
> > >>  From:   owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org  
> >  >>  [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf  Of   
> > Recon1st@aol.com
> > >> Sent: Tuesday,  August 26, 2008 8:51   AM
> > >> To:  personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >> Subject:  Re:   [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stopping Flaps
> > >> 
> > >>    
> > >> I did  not know these were tried on military subs. I  just  thought it 
> was 
> > a 
> > >> good idea  to be  able
> > >>   
> > >> to  stop  quicker.
> > >>  
> > >> I do   think for  my purposes just the sea anchor blown out of it's 
> housing 
> >   
> > >> would be  best for
> > >>  
> >  >> my   needs. Seems like the manual brake flaps would be  quite 
> complicated 
> > and  
> > >> slower   than
> > >>  
> > >> I  would   like.
> > >>  
> > >> 
> > >>   
> > >>  Dean
> > >>  
> > >> 
> >  >>  
> > >>   
> > >> In a   message dated 8/25/2008 7:43:51 P.M. Central Daylight  Time,   
> > >> brenthartwig@hotmail.com writes:
> > >>   
> > >> Dean,  
> > >> 
> > >> I found a  couple more  items. I'm having trouble finding a picture of  
> the  
> > >> flaps  open. I had one a while  back.
> >  >> 
> > >>  
> >  
> http://imageevent.com/albacore/albacorehistoricphotos;jsessionid=r9qabaad11.ti
> >  >>   ger_s?n=25&z=2&w=0&x=0&c=4&m=24&p=24
> > >>  "The  parachutes were attached to the after end of Albacore's   
> fairwater
> > >>  and successfully streamed while the ship  was  cruising submerged. The 
> > >> resulting
> >  >>  deceleration  curves indicated that such a system  effectively aided 
> in 
> > >>   emergency recovery."  
> > >>  Project "Bailout" might not have been  the most  successful of 
> Albacore's
> > >>  tests but it certainly   showed some creativity was at work."
> > >>  
> >  >>   http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
> >  >>  
> > >>  Regards,
> > >> Brent   Hartwig
> > >>   
> > >>   ____________________________________
> > >>  
> >  >>  From:  brenthartwig@hotmail.com
> > >> To:   personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >> Subject:   [PSUBS-MAILIST]  Stopping Flaps
> > >> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008  17:03:24   -0700
> > >> 
> > >> Dean,
> >  >> 
> > >> You could  install some sort of stopping  flaps  (speed brakes) on both 
> > sides  
> > >> of  your sub that are curved to fit the shape of  your hull.  Much like  
> a 
> > US Navy 
> > >> test sub USS Albacore. Then operate  them  with  hydraulics or adapted 
> > electric 
> >  >> actuators starting with  a unit like the Lenco  Trim Tab  actuators.
> > >> 
> > >> I've  been planning on  having this type or braking  system on my winged 
>  
> > >>  underwater gliding subs. With two stopping flaps on the   training  
> edge of 
> > the wings. 
> > >> One opening up, and one down at  the  same  time.
> > >> "Built as a test bed for the U.S.  Navy, the  Albacore featured a 
> > >>  tear-drop shaped  hull, new diving  controls, a dorsal rudder and a new 
> >  >>  high-yield steel for  her pressure hull. In addition, the  Navy, at 
> one 
> > time 
> > >>  or  another,  experimented with speed brakes, contra-rotating screws, a 
>  
> >  >>  drag chute, camouflage paint and three different   arrangements of 
> stern 
> > >>  control surfaces.
> >  >> The NSF  report ignited debate within Navy circles over a  variety of 
> > >>   issues such as the merits of twin  propellers vs. singles, and the 
> > sacrifice  
> >  >>  of surface stability for undersea speed. The result of  the  
> > recommendations 
> > >>  and ensuing debate  was the U.S.S.  Albacore.
> > >>  
> > >> The  Dorsal rudder was reinstalled and  enlarged and the boat 
> >  >>  was outfitted with speed brakes.  These brakes - another  concept 
> borrowed 
> > >>  from aviation -  technology,  consisted of 10 hinged panels ringing the 
> > >>  after   part of the ship. When needed, they were hydraulically opened 
> into  
> >  
> > >>  the waterflow, bringing the boat to a  rapid  stop."
> > >> 
> > >>    http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/albacore.htm
> > >>    
> > >>    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Albacore_(AGSS-569)
> >  >>   
> > >> Regards,
> > >> Brent   Hartwig
> > >>    
> > >>  ____________________________________
> > >>   
> >  >> From:  Recon1st@aol.com
> > >> Date: Mon, 25 Aug  2008  18:55:44 -0400
> > >> Subject: Re:  [PSUBS-MAILIST]  Air  Tanks
> > >> To:   personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >>  
> > >>  
> > >> 
> > >> Frank  I am using 12hp for my  main  propulsion. I gave up trying to 
> > calculate 
> >  >> speed  but I  should have
> > >>  
> >  >> plenty.  The reason for so  much maneuverability is the  bottom of Lake 
> > >> Superior many   granite  boulders
> > >>  
> > >> etc.  I will need  to  travel pretty fast to cover any amount of the 
> Lake. 
> > I am  
> > >>   thinking of a 20 to 30' above the
> >  >>  
> > >> bottom   but at 6 knots or so when  one of those big beast jumps up in 
> > front of  
> > >>  me, I  am going to need
> > >>  
> > >>   options.  A transfer pump or sliding weight for sure would not fit  my 
>  
> > needs. 
> > >> I may  even have an 
> >  >>  
> > >>  emergency  sea anchor deployment  for quick stops. Reverting back to my 
>  
> > drag 
> > >>  racing  days.
> > >>  
> > >>  
> >  >>  
> > >> I  loved the dry dive video. I  learned  much watching it maneuver I 
> have 
> > >> greater   confidence that  my
> > >>  
> > >>  efforts  should yield the kind of  performance I am looking for. Not  
> to 
> > >> mention it  oughta be a  real
> >  >>  
> > >> hoot  to drive  hehehhe
> >  >>  
> > >> 
> > >>  
> >  >>  Dean
> > >>  
> > >> 
> >  >>  
> > >>   
> > >> In  a  message dated 8/24/2008 8:15:39 P.M. Central Daylight  Time,   
> > >> ShellyDalg@aol.com writes:
> > >>  
> >  >>  
> > >> Hi  Dean. I think you're chasing  the  right idea with front and back 
> dive  
> > >> planes.  I had  considered that but let it go because of the extra work. 
> It  
> >  just  
> > >> seems to me that back dive planes  would be a real plus if you  have  
> > enough 
> > >>  power to make them work. Did you see the "dry  dive" videos? With   the 
> > center 
> > >> mounted dive planes the sub  stays  level when ascending/diving  but it 
> > would be nice 
> >  >> to  be able to angle the sub just with the dive  planes.  Like you say, 
> > much  
> > >> like flying. I don't know  how much speed you'd  have to get  to make 
> the 
> > dive  
> > >> planes overcome the front/back balance,  but  if  it's close enough to 
> > neutral, it 
> > >> may not take  that  much power.  
> > >>  
> > >>  Twin  trim tanks front  and back with a transfer pump would help if  
> the 
> > pump 
> > >> was   able to shift weight fast  enough. Maybe a sliding drop weight 
> would 
> > be   
> >  >> less trouble to make.  I will be able to shift the seat   forward and  
> > backward a 
> > >> little and I'm hoping  that will give  me a little angle change.  Damn, 
> I 
> > wanna  
> > >> get this thing wet  soon! Frank  D. 
> >  >> 
> > >> 
> > >>  
> >  >>   
> > >>   ____________________________________
> > >>  
> > >>  It's   only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel  deal 
> > _here_  
> > >>   (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)   .
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >>  
> > >>  
> > >>   
> > >>   ____________________________________
> > >>  
> > >>  It's   only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel  deal 
> > _here_  
> > >>   (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)   .
> > >> =
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >>  
> > >>  
> > >>   
> > >>   ____________________________________
> > >>  
> > >>  It's   only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel  deal 
> > _here_  
> > >>   (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)   .
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >>  
> > >> 
> > >>  
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> > >>  
> > >
> > >
> >  >
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