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RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure hull framing options.
Ebay.. about 100 USD :-)
Its from a passenger aircraft BAC11 from the 60ies.
Maybe its work - maybe not..
vbr Carsten
"Hugh Fulton" <hc.fulton@gmail.com> schrieb:
> Fantastic! You make me green with envy.
> Wonderful achievement. Where did you get the Gyro compass from and how
> much? Thanks, Hugh
>
>
>
>
> Hugh Fulton.
> Managing Director
> Tel : +64 9 5276055
> Mobile: 021 680 174
> hfulton@eclipsevalves.com
> ..........................................................................
> Eclipse Valves Ltd. www.eclipsevalves.com
> PO Box 18367, Glen Innes, Auckland 1743, NZ.
> Tel: +64 9 527 6135. Fax: +64 9 527 4532.
> ...........................................................................
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of
> MerlinSub@t-online.de
> Sent: 24 July 2008 10:50
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure hull framing options.
>
> Hi Hugh, two more pictures to answer your questions..
>
> http://www.euronaut.org/content/upload/notes/IMG_2774.JPG
> http://www.euronaut.org/content/upload/notes/Standfuss8b.JPG
>
> vbr Carsten
>
>
> "Hugh Fulton" <hc.fulton@gmail.com> schrieb:
> > Carsten,
> > Great photo and explanation. Is it possible to see some more photos of
> the
> > inside and details of your hatch mechanisms and other build details. Have
> > seen your video of the inside but that was finished. That is hardly p-sub
> > but a proper underwater ship. Very impressive. Also what do you use for
> > navigation. It has always intrigued me how submariners allow for tides,
> > currents, uncharted obstacles, Fishing nets in murky waters,etc. regards,
> > Hugh
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Brent,
> >
> > I use H-Frames bended in both directions and also longitudinal H-Frames.
> >
> > http://www.euronaut.org/content/upload/notes/H-frames.jpg
> > http://www.euronaut.org/content/upload/notes/IMG_2289.JPG
> > http://www.euronaut.org/content/upload/notes/Pic00003.jpg
> > http://www.euronaut.org/content/upload/notes/Pic00046.jpg
> >
> > This Frame : (called: double T) v = weld
> >
> > ============hull===
> > v-----v
> > I
> > I
> > -----
> >
> > is nearly perfect because it is self supporting and need only a small all
> > around weld to the hull.
> > And the longitudinal tensile strength goes soft into the frame..
> >
> >
> > And this Frame :
> >
> > =================hull===
> > vI Iv
> > I-----I
> > I I
> >
> > is nearly perfect to integrate an internal endcap-
> >
> >
> >
> > =================hull===
> > vI Iv
> > I-----I
> > vI Iv
> > ========I
> > I
> > I
> > I
> > I
> > Endcap
> >
> >
> > No worry about double plating and corrosion.
> > Only a small amout of oxygen inside the gap - eaten
> > by a very little amount of FeO2 - than corrosion stops.
> >
> > VBR Carsten
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Brent Hartwig" <brenthartwig@hotmail.com> schrieb:
> > >
> > > Hello Ian,
> > >
> > > I'll order that book. Thank you for the heads up on it.
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=8fKg6wHPpecC&dq=External+Pressure+Tec
> >
> hnology&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=rNugPdjA3s&sig=40O1miUIxpn6E51tO6
> > kavvPunBk&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
> > > You make some good points. The void area on the High H design requires
> > good welds to seal, and if you want/need to insulate your sub you would
> need
> > to fill it with urethane foam or the like, through drilled holes, and then
> > cap them. Carsten thought it would be ok to have sealed in areas in the
> > interior of the sub like my void and high rolled H beams outer surface, if
> > you weld them properly. The idea for the high H stiffeners primarily came
> > from a skilled metal fabricator relative of mine. A big part of the
> > reasoning for that design was that one of the primary failure modes of I
> and
> > H beams, is there loose edges bending in a wavy ribbon effect. So if you
> > have an existing trailer built with I beams, and weld on metal plates the
> > the vertical sides, making the I beam into a rectangle. You will have a
> much
> > stronger frame. This is why you see Ford bragging about there fully boxed
> > frames on there trucks. Instead of the channel type they used to use.
> > >
> > > The Euronaut's stiffener configuration is easier to install then the
> high
> > H design, but you can't get the H beams in A516 as far as I know. Perhaps
> > there are some other steel alloys available for H beams. In any case I
> think
> > mild steel H beams will work great for a lot of applications. You can also
> > space them closer if need be. This means more weight, but in a lot of
> cases
> > you will need a lot of weight any ways. It's only the change in
> metacentric
> > height with extra metal up high that gives me pause in doing that. In the
> > same basic size and thickness of material of both the rolled H beams and
> the
> > high H design. I would suspect that the high H configuration would be
> > stronger and lighter. especially if you used A516 for the material in the
> > high H stiffeners.
> > >
> > > I've seen one of Carsten's Euronaut drawings, that showed 8 horizontal H
> > beam weldments spaced out around the hull, between the stiffeners. For
> some
> > reason he chose not to install them. Perhaps it was cost and the extra
> > weight up high. In any case your stiffener rings will be much stronger
> with
> > those in place to stop the ribboning effect of the loose edges of the
> inside
> > rolled ring. For my live aboard sub design, I had decided to change from
> the
> > high H stiffeners to the rolled H beams like in the Euronaut, but with the
> > horizontal weldments add and made out of T stock. This way It was far
> > cheaper to not have to cut rings out of large sheets of A516, a lot less
> > welding, easier to insulate and inspect, and easier to install and inspect
> > the wiring and piping.
> > >
> > > I plan to do FEA analysis of a number of different configurations to get
> a
> > better picture of what is going on in regards to failure modes and
> strength
> > versus weight. For a angle iron stiffener configuration like in my K-250 I
> > plan to install A-36 T stock horizontal weldments to restrict the angle
> iron
> > stiffeners from ribboning. I could also use angle iron for the horizontal
> > weldments, but I need the extra rib to lock in the infusion molded
> syntactic
> > foam I plan to install.
> > >
> > > Regards,Brent Hartwig> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:26:49 -0400> From:
> > irox@ix.netcom.com> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org> Subject: Re:
> > [PSUBS-MAILIST] Pressure hull framing options.> > > Hi Brent,> > I'm not
> > going to discuss propane tanks, this is already done (many times!),> any
> > thing I say is already in the archives (normal for many different
> people).>
> > > However, I will discuss framing issues with you. If you want to do
> > advanced> designs like this, I would highly recommend getting a copy of:>
> > Pressure Vessels: External Pressure Technology> by Prof Carl T. F. Ross >
> >
> > This will help you start to understand some of the math (reason) behind>
> > different framing designs. It's a great book - although kind of bleeding>
> > edge. Once you see what's going on for a simple framing solution, you'll>
> > get an idea of how complex your is and figuring out the potential failure>
> > modes is going to be tricky.> > Note, with most H beam, it is the side of
> > the H the contacts the pressure hull,> like with an I beam it's the top or
> > bottom of the I attached to the hull.> First understand the general reason
> > for stiffener like this. It's really> making that part of the hull a small
> > diameter (small diameter means more> pressure resistance), one side of the
> I
> > attaches to the hull (lots of contact> area), the long part extends into
> the
> > hull attaches the hull to the inner> ring - the inner can take more
> pressure
> > than the hull, hence re-enforcing> that part of the hull.> > With your
> > design, it looks like you have no plate attached to the hull,> so the legs
> > of the H are weld straight to the hull metal. They extend> out, then
> before
> > the end is a inner ring welded between the legs (the cross> bridge of the
> > H). Before using this design over other you really need> to understand how
> > that design is going to buckle and fail. Once you> understand how it can
> > fail, you can do some simulation with different> designs, spacing, metals
> > thickness, etc.. Then time to start building> some models on different
> > scales and destroying them to verify your calculations> and research, you
> > might have to revisit your calculations and simulations> to make some
> > adjustments, then repeat destroying some models.> > Eventually your new
> > design will be ready to use in a manned submersible,> and providing the
> > original research/design/work was done correctly, then> it will not fail
> > you.> > Also, how you inspect the section between the legs of your H, for>
> > rust, leaks and the likes?> > I have a feeling you can loose one of the
> legs
> > from the H and just have> an L bean with the same strength instead, saving
> > you metal, time and money.> > Cheers,> Ian.> > -----Original Message----->
> > >From: Brent Hartwig <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>> >Sent: Jul 22, 2008 3:12
> > PM> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org> >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
> Propane
> > Tank Hull Options> >> >> >Hi Jon,> > > >"Regarding your second point about
> > materials. Whether it is true or> >not, people have suggested that the
> time,
> > effort, and cost required tomodify a propane tank for sub-use, is
> ultimately
> > more expensive thanjust ordering the parts and starting from scratch.
> > Perhaps that isnot strictly true from the perspective of
> > cash-out-of-your-pocket ifthe propane tanks have cost you nothing.
> However,
> > it does seem to bethe general consensus. Therefore, the issue does not
> > appear to bewhether a modified propane tank is better/worse than a
> > similarraw design from a performance perspective, but rather that the
> > propanemodification is definately worse from a time/labor perspective,
> > andcertainly from the chemical "smell" inherent in propane tanks."> > >
> >You
> > make some good points Jon. Some of us have the extra time, and are willing
> > to do the extra labor when funds are limited and we still want a
> reasonably
> > safe submarine.> > > >"I'm sure you realize that once you cut the end off
> to
> > install theribbing, the quality of the robot welds are immaterial since
> > theweak link is now the the weld you made to reattach the end."> > > >Very
> > true, but now you only have one head to attach, meaning you have one less
> > circumference weld to worry about applying correctly. Also I have what I
> > call a high H support ring design that if the three different basic
> > components of each ring are cut into three sections and then the butt
> joints
> > staggered, I think you could install them readily without cutting off one
> of
> > the heads. The high H support ring design allows you to apply all the weld
> > beads in relatively easy to see and work on areas, when compared to a T
> type
> > stiffener being installed in a hull that has the heads already welded on.
> > Here are some pictures of the concept I worked up some years ago. The
> model
> > is I believe over kill in stiffener size and thickness, but you can see
> the
> > idea in any case.> > > >
> > http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=4001713&pid=10216832> > > >You can
> > also use the angle iron configuration like on the K-250 and add horizontal
> > pieces of angle iron between the rings for extra strength in keeping the
> > ring from ribboning when bending, as well as seriously strengthen the hull
> > from collapsing in an accordion fashion between the stiffener rings. Not
> to
> > mention a lot of extra collision protection. But as many of you know you
> > can't get angle stock in A516 Gr 70, (or so I'm been told) so that's why
> > someone might want to use a the high H design.> > > >Another option might
> be
> > to install a mini version of the Euronaut's stiffeners, If you can find
> > small I or H beams.> >> >Regards,Brent Hartwig> >> >From:
> jonw@psubs.orgTo:
> > personal_submersibles@psubs.orgSubject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yunk Yard Wars
> > Submarine BuildingDate: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:14:49 -0400> >> >> >> >Brent,>
> >
> > > >> Can a reasonably safe ambient or wet, oil drum submarine be designed>
> > and built? I believe there are lots of options. The Chinese oil drum>
> > submarine builder will likely put his sub in shallow water for testing>
> and
> > see he needs a lot more keel weight before he even gets into it.> He can
> add
> > more weight to the wheel assemblies and/or a keel of some> sort below the
> > hull. The RV Needlefish had the same basic metacenter> problem, and Bill
> > found that out without ever diving it.> > > >Bill owned a very large and
> > successful marina, and had almost unlimited > >resources available to him.
> > Bill tested his sub by lowering it from acrane into a relatively shallow
> > area of water used for boat launchingat the marina, so that if there were
> a
> > problem he would not be in dangerof entrapment and drowning. His sub was
> > connected to the crane at> >all times.> > > >> How many people have died
> in
> > 1 ATM and/or ambient propane tank sub?> > > >I don't know, but I do know
> the
> > facts surrounding a couple of engineering > >students who built what they
> > considered a safe sub, but in which one of > >them died. The other
> > fortunately survived the ordeal, but suffered severetrauma. I interviewed
> > both the mother of the deceased, and thesurvivor last year. Interestingly,
> > the day prior to the accident theyhad performed an exact similar dive in
> the
> > sub without incident, andther e fore assumed that the sub was safe for
> > shallow-depth diving. > >Funny how you can't determine the safety of a sub
> > by the number > >of dives you perform in it. You can read about it
> > athttp://www.psubs.org/accidents/seaker100.html> > > > > > > >> I have
> > literature in my K-250 paperwork that has the George> Kittredge saying
> that
> > you can build your whole K-250 sub out> of A-36 mild steel and be just
> fine.
> > He did say how ever that> A516 Gr 70 is a great upgrade. Here is the
> quote.>
> > > > >What did he say about using 55-gallon drums?> > > > > > > >>
> Designing
> > a $2,000 US 1 ATM sub that anyone in the world could find> the same
> > materials for the same price, is not likely. When one has> the need and/or
> > desire to construct a inexpensive sub, it's not> always about getting new
> > products cheaply, but usually about found> objects that are very cheap or
> > even free. To build those same> objects brand new would be in many cases
> > very expensive. I have two> used, but solid nice 500 gallon propane tanks
> > with half hemisphere> heads that I got for free from a neighbor. Should I
> > not use them for> a 1 ATM sub because they are not made of new A-516, they
> > have a> little bit of rust on them, and they smell funny?> > > >You talk
> > about cost as if safety is a constant that doesn't have tobe accounted.
> It's
> > not, and has to be built into the cost of the sub.You can't base your
> design
> > and fabrication on cost of materials aloneif you are serious about having
> > expectations of diving and returningto the surface safely, consistently.
> At
> > some point, you are going to > >have to assess the risk of failure
> > associated with the design andmaterials you have chosen.> > > >Regarding
> > your second point about materials. Whether it is true or> >not, people
> have
> > suggested that the time, effort, and cost required tomodify a propane tank
> > for sub-use, is ultimately more expensive thanjust ordering the parts and
> > starting from scratch. Perhaps that isnot strictly true from the
> perspective
> > of cash-out-of-your-pocket ifthe propane tanks have cost you nothing.
> > However, it does seem to bethe general consensus. Therefore, the issue
> does
> > not appear to bewhether a modified propane tank is better/worse than a
> > similarraw design from a performance perspective, but rather that the
> > propanemodification is definately worse from a time/labor perspective,
> > andcertainly from the chemical "smell" inherent in propane tanks.> > > > >
> >
> > > >> The heads are robot welded with three passes. Most of us can't weld>
> > even close to that good. Besides I would likely have to cut one end> off
> to
> > install the ribbing unless I cut the ribbing into three> sections.> > >
> >I'm
> > sure you realize that once you cut the end off to install theribbing, the
> > quality of the robot welds are immaterial since theweak link is now the
> the
> > weld you made to reattach the end.> > > > > > > >> One thing that this
> group
> > needs to be reminded of from time to time,> is that the synergy of
> > experiences and combined brain power of this> global group, is incredible,
> > if not impeded.> > > >If you are suggesting that people who have an
> interest
> > in safety arean impediment to this group, then I strongly disagree with
> > you.> > > >Jon> > > > > > > > >
> > ************************************************************************>
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