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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sonar transducers, was radio link



Andy,

Thanks for the info on the potting. I guess what I'm unsure of is, assuming the transducer is a hollow cylinder (which most for this application are), then do you fill the inside of the cylinder with the potting compound? I would think that wouls limit the mechanical motion during resonance. Assuming you leave an air space there, then you need some sort of end cap disks. Is the material and thickness of these end caps critical? Should they be bonded to the element or just loosely placed while potting? I have two unpotted elements that Dan H. gave me but have not yet hooked them up to determine their resonant frequency to see if they would be suitable.

The other problem I have is not knowing how much voltage to drive these with since I have no specs. I know typically, it can range upwards of 100v p-p but I also know if you overdrive them you can destroy their piezoelectric characteristics.

With the OTS transducers, I ordered one though the dive shop I used to teach for (which is no longer in business) several years ago and at that time, the owner told me OTS quizzed him on "why do you need a replacement transducer???" and he had to make up some excuse. I got the same response talking to the OTS rep at Beneath the Sea a couple of weeks ago. I can just imagine their response if I were to try and order 4 or 5 "replacements".

I feel having the capability to talk with divers in the water would be important, especially in a rescue situation where you could talk them through what they should do. It would also be useful for safety divers during our convention gatherings, but is it worth the hassle of finding the right transducer?

Well, enough rambling....thank you Andy for all you information and, don't laugh but I did even look into fabricating my own transducer and poured through many many patents trying to get ideas!

Al Secor

Quoting aeg <ag@desertstar.com>:

Al,

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest you buy a qty of transducers.  However,
if you could find a manufacture that was producing some transducer in
quantity for
some other customer, you will pay significantly less than if you say
went to ITC with
a technical specification.

I think you may have trouble beating the pricing for the OTS spares.
You could try going
to one of their distributors or through a scuba shop if they are not
willing to sell them to you directly.  I think Amron carries their
gear, so you may be able to get the OTS transducers from them.
http://www.amronintl.com

Potting the transducers is basically just casting them into epoxy or
some similar material.

Two compounds we have used:
Silver Tip Marine Epoxy Series from System Three Resins Inc.
And (epoxy) 828 and (hardener) 1784 from Radarsonics

The main thing to watch out for is that the compounds set fully and you
don't get any air bubbles.

Some companies where we have gotten reasonably cheap ceramics:
SENSOR/B.M. HI-TECH INC.
AIRMAR TECHNOLOGY CO

Also we have in the past gotten 46KHz transducers from Airmar for under
$50 USD in
small qtys, but it was some time ago so I don't know if that pricing is
current.

Of course if you wanted to go whole hog you could buy a furnace and
some pzt powder and make your own transducers.
http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Theory-Design-Sonar-Transducers/dp/0932146228/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207923594&sr=8-2

Hope that helps,
-andy


----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Secor" <wreckdiver@frontiernet.net>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] radio link


Sorry, got two of my links wrong....faulty memory ;-)

www.oceantechnologysystems.com is the correct adr for OTS and

www.divelink.net is correct for the second.

Two additional ones:

www.orcatron.com

http://www.fuji-us.co.jp/e/underwater/

Hope this is helpful to someone.

Andy, I realize that transducers (or anything else for that matter) is cheaper in quantity but I'm sure as hell aren't going to commit to any quantity when no one appears interested enough to give me any input. My reasons for 32 Khz was to be compatible with my OTS scuba comm which is 32.768 Khz USB but maybe there isn't that much interest in talking to divers....kind of hard to tell with no input. I did find some cheap 40 Khz unpotted elements on E-Bay which are certainly a possibility. Do you have any detailed info on what's involved to pot them?

Regarding your comment on pingers creating noise...I agree...I was not intending to run comm and pinger at the same time....Te pinger function I am going to include in the radio design is more of just an automated CW (morse code) broadcasted by the radio so it's signal could be zeroed in on without having someone constantly talking on the radio.

Al Secor

----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Secor" <wreckdiver@frontiernet.net>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>; "Rick and Marcia" <empiricus@telus.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] radio link



If you want something that is tried and true and not half assed then
you need to go ultrasonic as Jay mentioned earlier.  The following
companies offer off the shelf solutions for underwater to surface comms:

www.ots.com

www.divelink.com

www.oceanreefgroup.com

There are a few others but these guys are the major players with OTS
probably being the top dog (I speaking strictly non commercial, non
military).

Ir you want reliable (mostly) and non-Mickey-mouse comm, this is the
way to go.  It's going to be somewhat pricey but hey, if we can afford
side scan sonar and all other types of expensive "toys" then a
reliable form of surface communication should be affordable.

Now, on a side note, I am working on a cheaper alternative using the
same basic design as the companies listed above.  My major stumbling
block is an affordable transducer which I am still looking for and
have not yet found.  Most of the ones I've located so far cost as
much, if not more than the costs of the entire units of the above
companies.  OTS acts very suspicious when I try to purchase a
"replacement transducer".....

I've mentioned in several previous posts that I am working on this and
pretty much get silence in return so I have to wonder how many people
are actually willing to step up and "pet the pony" and actually
purchase something like this.  I couldn't even get a response as to
what people view as an acceptable price to invest in something like
this would be.  Right now, my prototype is spoken for and is being
built for Dan H. for use on Persistance.  If I don't get any feedback,
this will likely be the only pair of units I will build.

Al Secor - Electrical Engineer for IBM, Ham Radio operator callsign WA3PWX






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Al Secor




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