RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Store Front and Product Survey

[irox <irox@ix.netcom.com>]

Those where definitely some of my first purchases, although ABS
wasn't always free, actually kind of expensive when I started
building my sub library.

I would also add "Principles of Naval Architecture" and either
"Concepts in submarine design" or "Theory of Submarine Design"
(I prefer the latter) for a more complete library.  At least
I found a lot fewer knowledge gaps with that set of texts.

Cheers,
  Ian.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Jon Wallace <jon@psubs.org>
>Sent: Mar 8, 2008 12:39 PM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Store Front and Product Survey
>
>
>Hello psubbers,
>
>I'll try to answer a few questions that have come up in posts related to Ray's recent inquiry.
>
>
>> complete sets of standards would be nice.  I find
>> myself spending lots of money on what turns out to
>> be a couple sheets of paper which refers to some
>> other set of standards...
>
>There are four primary references that anyone constructing a psub should have in their plibrary.  Those are the ABS Standards, ASME PVHO-1, ASME PVHO-2, and Handbook of Acrylics.  These references contain all the technical information required to construct your psub and should be your first purchase when embarking upon a submersible construction project.  ABS occasionally defers to and references ASME.  The ABS information is freely downloadable, ASME charges a fee for their standards, and the Handbook of Acrylics usually sells for around $200 (available in major book outlets as well as the psubs store).
>
>ABS Standards - Free
>http://www.eagle.org/absdownloads/listdetails.cfm?id=73
>
>PVHO-1 - $179.00
>2007 Safety Standard for Pressure Vessels for
>Human Occupancy
>http://catalog.asme.org/Codes/PrintBook/PVHO1_2007_Safety_Standard.cfm
>
>PVHO-2 2003  - $55.00
>Safety Standard for Pressure Vessels for Human
>Occupancy: In-Service PVHO Acrylic Windows
>Guidelines
>http://catalog.asme.org/Codes/PrintBook/PVHO2_2003_Safety_Standard.cfm
>
>Handbook of Acrylics - $195.00
>http://www.psubs.org/store/books/stachiw.html
>
>There are minimal operational standards that affect personal or recreational submersibles.  In the USA, a sub is recreational if it is not-for-hire.  These means you do not charge any fee or seek any other kind of renumeration for carrying a guest/passenger.  Once you ask for money, or barter, for carrying a passenger in your sub you become a commercial vessel and must have your vessel certified.  In the USA, there are three primary references for standards that relate to recreational submersibles; US Federal Law, Code of Federal Regulations, and Guidance for Certification of Passenger Carrying Submersibles.  This information is all available on PSUBS.ORG at http://www.psubs.org/guidelines/USG/
>
>
>
>> I would like to see a how to book on how to build
>> your own surface support ship. (like a modified
>> platform boat with small crane). I would also like
>> to see a bigger selection of portholes and would
>> like to see thruster pods for sale. I think using
>> the group to leverage buying power would be good.
>> I think using psubs as a broker would be good also.
>> One other kinda off the topic thing I would like to
>> see on the site is a attachment page for the site
>> (example: how to make hydrolic arms, underwater
>> tools, etc).
>
>With the exception of the K-subs, most submersible projects are very unique and no single surface support ship design would fit the requirements enough to make it feasible.  If you are building a K-350, take a look at the "Tender Nellie" which was built by Harold Maynard for his submersible.  He might be willing to share or sell the plans he used to build his tender.  Otherwise, I think your support ship has to be as unique as your submersible.
>
>PSUBS would like to see a bigger selection of port holes as well.  In fact, we'd love to have a supplier that we could deal with, but none have come forward and offered their services.  Given the discussion on the mailing list, there are at least two people who supply non-certified viewports.  PSUBS has a supplier for PVHO certified viewports, but the prices are so high we've never bothered to offer them as an option on the web site.  For example, a 16 inch main hull viewport for the K-250, ASME Certified to PVHO-1 standards, will cost you $4,000.00.  For the K-350, four 8 inch viewports for the conning tower and one 15 inch main hull viewport, ASME Certified to PVHO-1 standards, will cost you $7,000.00.  (shipping not included)  We would be more than happy to set up a relationship with existing suppliers WHO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.  That means that they have the knowledge and capability to manufacture viewports to ASME standards, even if they do not go the extra step to get a certification stamp for the viewport.  If you know of a supplier that fits these requirements, have them contact Ray or Jon at psubs.org and we will be happy to talk to them.
>
>While we do represent some buying power, realistically it isn't much.  We have a lot of want-a-subbers (that includes me) but only a couple handful of people who are actively engaged in sub-construction at any particular moment in time.  Typically when I talk to commercial suppliers, they are looking to sell quantities of 500, 1000, or more.  When I tell them, "well, we might be able to buy three", their eyes glaze over and they lose interest.  The home-built market is a classic niche-market, but unfortunately a niche market that doesn't represent much of any profit to suppliers.  When I do find a company that shows interest in us, I try to give them as much recognition as possible and I hope all psubbers will consider purchasing their products.  Micropore Inc., Birns Aquamate, and most recently Desert Star are an example of commercial companies who from a corporate perspective have nothing to gain by dealing with home-builders, but have gotten involved with us anyway.  Building a corporate supplier portfolio is going to take a long time, but we are always trying to get new suppliers to offer us discounted items.  We also have to remember that the typical home-builder is building their own sub as much because they want to BUILD it, as they want to use it.  So it can be difficult sometimes to convince our community members to purchase something if they are excited by their own can-do attitude and consider it a challenge to create the same item on their own.  Here at PSUBS, we've been trying to concentrate on offering items that can be obtained cheap enough that it doesn't make sense to spend time making them yourself.
>
>PSUBS does act as a consignment broker.  Check out the links to the psubs store, and the "For Sale By Owner" section.  We don't care what it is, as long as it is somehow related to, or can be modified for, submersible use.  If you have something you want to sell, we'll work out arrangements that are fair to you and PSUBS, and put it up for sale on PSUBS.ORG.  This could be a one time sale, or a product that is regularly manufactured.  We use the profit for R&D, and to subsidize the yearly conventions.
>
>There is no limit to the size of the website, or content.  However, the content on PSUBS can only grow as large as the people who submit to it allow it to get.  The only way we can provide technical information such as hydraulic arms and underwater tools is if someone were to submit such information.  PSUBS is a community website intended to receive information from the submersible community, and turn it around for consumption by the submersible community.  However, we need people to contribute.
>
>
>
>
>> I'd like to buy a hat.
>> How about pulling together some sort of connection
>> between built subs and the media.
>
>I believe I have some hats, and I definately have some T-shirts.  However, they are also stored in my shed at the moment with about 5 feet of snow in front of the doors so I don't expect I'll be able to get to them for a few weeks (Brent isn't the only one with snow).  The hats are available from the PSUBS store which is a link on the website.  http://www.psubs.org/store  These are typically in limited supply because they are expensive for us to purchase.  We have to purchase in bulk to be able to sell them at a price people are willing to spend.
>
>At our conventions, we always try to set aside a day for public display of various psubs and we always contact the press (radio, tv, newspaper) to ask for coverage.  Last year, the Holland Sentinal in Michigan covered the event http://www.psubs.org/press.  One of the problems we have to deal with is that our psubbers are scattered about, with the mysterious exception of the Michigan area where there are about 5-6 psubs all relatively close to each other.  Therefore, it's difficult to put an event together for the purpose of inviting the press.  The conventions work to our advantage in this way.  Gary Sluis from Michigan will be leading a public display at the Holland Tulip Festival in Holland Michigan this coming May which will involve kids.  When you put Subs and Kids together, the press is sure to follow so I suspect there will be coverage at that event.  PSUBS also gets queried by the press on a regular basis.  Last year we talked to Boating Magazine, Forbes, and the Associated Press.  This year we've given interviews to BoatUS Magazine, Popular Science, and we have been sharing ongoing discussions with a producer from "Go Deep" (appears on National Geographic/History Channels in Canada) who is interested in filming at the 2008 convention in Maine.  When asked by the press, we always attempt to find psubbers in our community who are willing to be interviewed and/or visited.  Sometimes we get volunteers, sometimes we don't.
>
>
>
>> Maybe you could put up a section on the web that
>> ''tourists'' or casual visitors could see pictures
>> of us having fun.  Something with the group showing
>> their subs like the picture taken at the last
>> convention where all 4 subs and pilots are at the
>> shore of the pond.
>
>This is a good suggestion.  Based upon some of the input we've gotten back, it occurs to me that the website needs to be revamped and better organized.  I notice that many of the things being asked for, already exist.  The fact that people are still asking for them indicates that the items are hard to find.  This is something  that we have to do between real work and family however, so it is likely to take some time.  
>
>
>> As for the store, how about those little ''lapel pins.'
>> I recently had some made for our bike club, and they
>> are popular items. The cost was $1.60 each, and we give
>> them to our friends during runs and parties, but for
>> psubs, you could sell them for a small profit.
>
>Good suggestion, we'll look into it.  We're always looking for small things that we can sell to help subsidize the conventions.  The upfront cost is always the catch though and I suspect you had to purchase 200 or 300 of the pins to get that price which translates to us investing a few hundred dollars and hope we can recoup it in a short enough period of time to make it worth while.  If you have a contact for the manufacturer of your pins I'd be glad to look them up and see what we can do.
>
>
>
>> I'd suggest a section with links to Youtube videos of PSUBS.
>
>We've had a video link on the website for some time now at http://www.psubs.org/video and I'll add the larger list that you submitted to the list.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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