Jay,
A 12 mile transit is a huge disadvantage. The Atlantis tourist sub in Kona, Hawaii only has about a half mile transit each way. I suppose they could have two or even three transit boats in Antigua, but that would all have to be accounted for financially. Can a tourist sub company in Antigua charge higher prices to make up for much longer transit times? The ABS requirements for sea states of 3 or less makes it pretty hard to keep a good schedule in that location.
Hopefully in the near future large Li-Ion battery systems or the like will be available and financially practical for use in tourist subs for faster charging and larger charges able to be stored. In regards to the engine pods, I was thinking they could have a snorkel system using redundant, remotely actuated pneumatic Habonim type valves like used on the Alica submarine. This way they could be started remotely when they are not totally surfaced.
http://www.habonim.com/compact%20actuator/compact2.html
Another
option might be using the batteries stored power to operate the blowers
and then recharge that lost power using the engines once fully surfaced
if there is any reasonable amount of time between dives. If the SubCat
was used as the transit boat as well, then you would have more charge
time, but that's not the case, so it's academic for that location.
For charging compressed air and O2 systems quickly at the harbor,
the guys on the compressed air car forums talk about having allot
higher volume of tanks then is in there car at home compressing during
the day, and then using them to quickly fill there cars air tanks to
almost full or full if you can get your home base tanks rated for a
higher pressure then the cars tanks. Of course for a tourist sub your
going to need someone watching the base systems during the day, and you
still have to charge the batteries over night so there might not be any
real financial advantage.
Regards,
Brent Hartwig
From: bottomgun@mindspring.com
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubCat S-30 Data
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:43:49 -0500
Brent,
There were 3 SubCat S-30 built that I know of. Even
though there is a better surface run time with the S-30, a surface
transfer vessel and a safety vessel are still required to optimize dive time
and meet statutory safety requirements. In addition the SubCat S-30
is limited to operations in sea states of 3 or less by the ABS certification
that is required for insurance. The Antigua location will require a 12
mile transit in the morning and evening to get to the reef location and it
looks like the prevailing winter sea state conditions will often be outside of
the sea state 3 limit. Additionally, customers will have to be transferred
by boat the same 12 miles both ways due to island transportation issues.
Optimally a passenger submersible should be able to make up to 10 dives a day
to maximize bookings, the S-30 can make 6 if fully surfaced (10 if
passengers are transferred via the upper hatches but not properly configured
for this and the benefit of easy loading through the aft large hatch is lost.
The diesels cannot be started until they are in a surfaced
condition and the engine pods are accessed so the blower option is not feasible.
The engine pods do not have room for additional equipment. You just compound
the complexity of a system that is already a maintenance nightmare. It takes
all night to charge the batteries, the air bottles, and topping the oxygen tanks.
R/Jay
Respectfully,
Jay K. Jeffries
Andros Is., Bahamas
A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not
plunge.
From:
owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brent
Hartwig
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 8:49 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] SubCat S-30 Data
Jay,
I had read the below web page promoting the sale of the SubCat S-30 that looked
to be in Greece at the time. Do you know if this was the only SubCat S-30 that
was built? I was impressed with a number of the design elements in this
sub, like being able to load passengers through a very large rear vertical
hatch and faster surface running. As you might know, I'm interested in designs
of external engine pods for attaching to submarines for surface running, so
that also caught my attention. As with most major new prototypes there are bugs
that need to be worked out. Even with a longer fully surfacing time, they
might come out ahead not having the cost of have a tender boat and crew. Also for
the Atlantis tourist submarine I took a ride on in Kona, Hawaii, they had to
pull it with the tender boat some distance to its harbor every morning and
evening. That is a slow process that cost a fair bit.
Hopefully they will be able to remedy the pod flooding problem. As for the
surfacing quickly issue, I would think there could be two of more large on
board high CFM rotary screw compressors that could be run off the diesel
engines for supplying allot of air quickly and perhaps even have a pair of high
pressure compressors running off the engines while surfaced and commuting to
the loading dock, for recharging the high pressure air banks during the day
while the crew is there already. Also having more lines coming into the soft
tanks in the floats from the high pressure air tanks would allow a much faster
surfacing time. The compressors might need to be in there own sound insulated
pods to shield the noise from the passengers that are mounted to the sub with
anti vibration type motor mounts. Does that sound reasonable or am I all
wet? :)' Perhaps I should ask that.
|
"This is a remarkable submarine to be used in a marine
tourism business or for private pleasure.
This SubCat S-30 submarine has the capacity to
transport up to 28 passengers (and 2 crew) to a diving location, dive to a
depth of up to 30 meters, explore the undersea world, surface, and return to
port - all that under its own diesel or electric power.
The SubCat is
approximately 18 meters long, 6 meters wide, and weighs 61 tons. It is
powered by two diesel engines when on the surface, and by six electrical
thrusters when submerged.
This submarine was built in Spain by Subibor S.A. It is
classified by the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS) as +A1 Passenger Craft,
Submersible, Restricted Service +AMS. Its construction was supervised by ABS
surveyors.
The SubCat is
easy to pilot both on the surface and undersea. The submarine pilot needs to
have a captain's license for a surface ship of similar size, and some
training on this submarine.
This SubCat S-30 has certain significant
advantages over other civilian submarine designs. Its dual diesel-electric
propulsion gives it speed, range, and
autonomy and is unique in its class. This eliminates the need for a
second crew and boat to ferry the passengers to the diving location and also
the need for a mid-sea boat- to-boat transfer. Its draft is only
1.5 meters (5 feet) and thus can use most marinas
for docking. The presence of the SubCat in
the marina between tours is a tourist attraction itself and
helps to bring in passenger traffic. The
large entry hatch on the aft- end of the cabin allows for any
tourist, young or old, to be
able to sign-up for the tour.
The annual gross earnings potential of this submarine is well
over two million USD per year (based on a 270 day season, 7 dives per day
schedule, with a 65% seat-occupancy factor). Additional sales of tourist
items to the same customer base can increase this income by 10 to 15%. The
before-tax profit potential is over one million USD per year.
You can own this SubCat S-30 at a very attractive
price. Included in the sale is a 20-foot support systems container
that holds the battery charger, the fresh-air compressor, assorted tools and
spares, and documentation. This craft was launched in 2002 and has logged
1500 dives. It is in excellent condition. The submarine is currently docked
and is available for immediate delivery. It
will be delivered with a current ABS certificate.
For further information please contact Mr. Melas at:
Telephone: +30/2109233084
Fax: +30/2109233086
Mobile: +30 6944434448
Email: emelas@archimedia.gr
20 Zan Moreas Street
Athens 11741, Greece"
|
Regards,
From: bottomgun@mindspring.com
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Boat-Sub makes successful test dive
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 12:31:13 -0500
Brent,
The Lake patent links lead me to search through the Patent banks
and found a large number of Simon Lake patents that demonstrated his
entrepreneurial spirit. The scope included subs, salvage, engines,
aircraft, concrete structures, and medical apparatus…it was really
surprising.
Earlier this year had considered a position as maintenance
manager for a SubCat S-30 that was to be refitted in Florida during a
relocation from Greece to Antigua. After review of the engineering and
operation complications of the design, poor operating location, and 18% tax in
Antigua backed out of the job. If everything went OK with the overhaul,
the submersible should be operational now. Both diesel pods exhibited
signs of heavy flooding after only a year of initial operation. An excessively
lengthy time was required to surfaces the sub completely so that passengers
could transfer through the aft hatch vice the top hatch. Due to this
wasted time and the extreme amounts of air required to surface fully, fewer
dives could be made in a day and this impacts negatively the passenger
load that can be carried in a given day. It also resulted in lengthy air
bank recharging during the night that would require competent attendance.
R/Jay
Respectfully,
Jay K. Jeffries
Andros Is., Bahamas
A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not
plunge.
From:
owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brent
Hartwig
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 10:32 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Boat-Sub makes successful test dive
Jay,
I found that patent data late last night and so didn't get a chance to read
through it and notice the Lake patent details. I looked at it again so see if I
could perhaps look up the Lake patents as well on Google, and found them. ;)'
In the past nothing much was available on the internet for patents that
were issued prior to 1972. So this opens up a whole new resource for
allot of people. Here are the links to the two Lake patents you mentioned
if you don't already have them.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=kJFeAAAAEBAJ&dq=1,510,283
http://www.google.com/patents?id=-VRNAAAAEBAJ&dq=1864837
In regards to Prior Art I have found the USPTO to be pretty lax and allow allot
of utility patents to go through with claims thats are not really new, just
used perhaps slightly different but still the same mechanically speaking. One
case of this is the cross over between some claims on the Bionic Dolphin patent
and Hawks Deep Flight patent. Some of the claims in the Hyper-Sub are already
prior art in the SubCat S-30 built in 1999. Regardless of that, they are both
very interesting subs with unique design elements. I'll have to look through
the other Prior Arts sited to see if there is any thing about the SubCat design
as well as see if there are any US or international patent data on the SubCat
design.
Have any of you guys been on or personally seen the SubCat S-30 ??
http://www.globalsubmarines.com/subcat.htm
From: bottomgun@mindspring.com
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Boat-Sub makes successful test dive
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 13:59:56 -0500
Brent,
An interesting point to note in the patent listed below that
covers the Hyper-Sub is that the first two patents in the Prior Arts section
are Simon Lake’s.
R/J2
Respectfully,
Jay K. Jeffries
Andros Is., Bahamas
A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not
plunge.
From:
owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brent
Hartwig
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:52 AM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Boat-Sub makes successful test dive
Thank you for the interesting links Jay. I hadn't kept up on the
progress of the Marion Hyper-Sub. I've been interested in that front window
design, since I first saw it. I would like to see a stress analysis on it as
well as see how it's sealed at the edges. Here is a interesting link to there
patent data on Google Patent search. The drawings are interesting.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=bJWAAAAAEBAJ
Regards,
|