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[PSUBS-MAILIST] Fwd: Psub information and sub questions





Begin forwarded message:

From: Bryce Yarbrough <byarbrough@mac.com>
Date: October 4, 2007 12:57:36 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Psub information and sub questions

Hey thanks for the reply on this. I figured that the GPS radio waves would not reach far down in the water, but for surface navigation and just knowing where you are everytime you surface to place against the chart maps I think is a good idea, a handheld should get the job done. I will figure out what I can do in terms of the rotating actuators instead of in/out designs.

On the terms of Diesel Engines...
What do you recommend for a diesel engine, and how to store the fuel for the engine without changing the ships buoyancy?

Any recommendations for electrical engines/motors to use?

I am trying to go for a new generation nuclear submarine look, so either one or two big props in the back, and a bow starboard/port thruster in the nose to help with sharp turning.
Dive planes are on the sail and on the tail.

On the terms of the Computer and Micro-controller, I was planning on using Micro-controllers, I have several Basic Stamps, and other micro-controllers at my disposal.
The system breakdown, as I have designed it at the moment is:

A computer linked to the Master Micro-controller which receives all the feedback from all of the sub-systems and displays it on a read out on the computer.

Master Micro-controller (with a back up system in place as well) that controls all the subsystems of the ship and acts as the big brain.

Propulsion Micro-controller

Life Support Micro-Controller

Navigation Micro-Controller (I have digital Compass systems that will link right up with the Basic Stamp and give me an extremely accurate degree heading system), I can also interface it with a handheld GPS unit for digital char-plotting (and black boxing as well).

Electrical Sub-System for onboard lights and electrical control.

Radar, I was looking for more or less for surface navigating, but I guess that is what we have eyes and GPS for.

I would love to hear more from everyone on this about all the subjects.

Bryce

On Oct 3, 2007, at 10:56 PM, Lil Brother LLC wrote:

Ok Bryce,
 
I'll answer in blue to the questions I have an opinion on.
 
I am knew to this mailing list and site, but not that new to the  
world of submarines and robotics. I have been actively involved in  
robotics throughout high school and have been working with them for  
over 6 years now. I also built a small R/C Submarine, and have  
decided that a goal of mine is to build a submarine. With the help of  
my high school (we are doing it through the robotics club as a  
project, great way to get materials, electronics, and money donated  
to the submarine) we are going to build a sub. We are looking at  
about 30 Feet long with a 5 or 6 foot beam. I have run into several  
questions, that even despite my research, I cannot answer at this  
time, so I am turning to you guys :-). (btw I am 19, just to let you  
know). My questions are (at the moment that I can think of):
 
First of all you have a good start at knowing the basics of sub operations and a partial knowledge on the design. This is a pretty large accomplishment to fill, but ambition is not a bad thing.

-How do you seal up a hole in the pressure hull that contains any  
such motors to control the dive planes or rudders, if the linkages  
move forwards and backwards through the hole, instead of just turning  
(any other ideas on the subject would be great)
 
The best method is having thru hull items that twist. This is necessary because any item that enters or exits the pressure hull will change the pressure inside (like a pump). Also the difference in inside and outside pressure will cause it to be hard to push out (higher pressure externally). Twisting thru hull items are usually sealed with orings and lubricant.
 
I recommend not having any thru hull movement. This is where money starts playing a role. I would use some kind of electrical actuator to move any control surfaces outside the pressure hull. This ofcourse increases cost and complicates design (mechanically and electrically)


-We have decided that we want to use a Life Support System involving  
scrubbing the CO2 out of the air, and releasing O2 into the air when  
needed.
-- Anyone figured out a great system to do this with yet?
--Anyone have sensors and such equipment yet?
 
We have a group of people working on the CO2 scrubbing system, and I'm not sure where they stand on a usable design. Someone from the list will have to comment.

-To recharge the ballast tanks, we want to use an onboard electric  
air compressor (I just don't like the thought of fuel onboard the  
ship), anyone have any suggestions on which ones to use, things to  
look out for?
 
This option will depend on how you plan to use the sub. If you are just going to make short trips, there is usually no need to recharge high pressure tanks for ballast control. But with the sub you have described, I would recommend at least one diesel engine and a compressor to charge air pressure tanks.

-Navigation/Electronic Equipment:
-- Sonar:
---Any systems that anyone USES for their subs, how well they work,  
etc?
 
There are guys using a variety of different sonar systems, but they will have to answer. I've not built a sub, so any speculation on this would be just that.

---Hydrophones yet?
 
We have a guy also working on a hydrophone system. There are some bugs still, but he is working them out. The biggest problem with hydrophones is the distance judging. It would take an expert ear (or very expensive system) to judge distance based on sound. (too many different types of vessels to judge).

--- Active Sonar Systems?
 
I'm not sure.....

--Radar:
---Does anyone use radar for when they are on the surface?
--- How do you keep the radar antenna safe when you dive?
 
Radar is usually not on a submarine, because most of our subs just don't travel that far. I know there is a company that builds subs that have radar. I think they use a very special built antenna to handle the pressure.

--Radio:
---I am assuming that any radio designed for marine purposes will  
do, but how do you protect the antenna, any suggestions?
 
Most antenna are usually impervious to the average depth psubbers achieve. If you are going real deep, a stainless antenna would probably do the job. As for the radio itself, I'm not sure. I know most guys carry a standard marine radio. They may also carry an alternate.

--GPS:
---I know some of the complete sonar/navigation/radar systems  
utilize GPS (which is a great thing I think)
--- BUT.. again, how do you protect the antenna, and does it work  
underwater?
 
GPS would be useless underwater. The radio wave it uses will not penetrate the water. Some psub have some kind of inertia navigation.(it is set by the GPS at the surface). Most use the old reliable compass. You can see the role money plays in this hobby.
 
The people who use GPS have a handheld antenna to calibrate their navigation. They do not expose the antenna to the depths.

--Depth Gauge:
--The fish finder sonar systems tell you how deep the water is, but  
not how deep you are
 
Now that one you should be able to answer your self. Fish finders tell you the depth of the water below the sensor. If you sink the boat......the fish finder will say the water is real shallow.
 
A depth gauge can be constructed by using outside pressure. It can be as simple as a pressure gauge (you do the math), or a purposely built system to figure your depth out, base on the outside pressure (by sensor).
 

-- So how do you know how deep you are ( I would prefer to stay all  
digital, because then things can be run by the computer for  
autonomous modes and various exercises) ?
 
Here is where I see a problem. I'm an electrical systems design/engineer. I have seen this method discussed at length. The problem with a computer is the old reliable blue screen. Although this would not be a dangerous happening at the time. It would lead to some information being lost, and therefore that information would have to be guesstimated. I recommend building a system using microcontrollers or something else that doesn't have software errors occur. This is where large sums of money can be spent. With a craft like you want to construct, it would be in your best interest to have a totally independent system for electronics. A computer possibly for control and monitoring, but the independent system to do the work and keep the information alive.

Sorry its alot of questions, I know. :-)

-Any laws that pertain to the use of personal subs for recreation? I  
know after the N.Y. incident the FBI is taking subs a bit more  
seriously, any tips as of yet? (We are based out of Los Angeles)
 
As of yet, there are no rules for Psubs other than the standard boating rules. This is ofcourse based on the fact you are not carrying passengers (paying). If you do the rules change greatly. Then the boat must meet ABS standards, and your project just became the 6 million dollar boat.

I know there are some subs out there that utilize windows based PC's  
that run the navigation equipment and monitor equipment and systems  
on board the ship, so I was wondering if there was anyone who had/has  
such a system or knows what they use or how they do it, I would  
appreciate it.
 
This is also a complicated question. There are literally thousands of ways to do what you ask. Unfortunately everyone does it a little different, so you will get a large number of different answers. I think most of the guys are programming or having software programmed for them. I would use a different method as mentioned before.

BTW, when I speak in terms of robotics, we do all remote control  
based robotics, so there is no actual computer interaction involved,  
its all radio based.

Anything else you want to add I am MORE then welcome to take in all  
the information you guys can through at me.
Anything involving, materials to build the hull out out(looking at  
Carbon Steel i.e. Mild Steel), viewports, hatch systems, safety  
systems, ballast systems, surfacing systems/procedures for knowing  
when its safe to surface/etc. I cannot really think of anything else  
at the moment, but I am inviting ALL forms of advice (especially from  
Peter Madsen (Kraka is my inspiration, absolutely amazing vessel!)
 
I think, if you are serious, and believe the capital is available. Purchase a set of plans from the website, and download Busby's book. These will create 100x the questions you already have. This will however answer most of the one you have at the moment.
 
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division
)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryce Yarbrough" <byarbrough@mac.com>
To: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: Psub information

I am not quite sure about the marine question. I'll ask my dad  
tomorrow when I give him a call.

I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on my questions. I want everyone  
who has any thought on them to tell me. You are the first one to  
respond to my email as it is so I would love to have some thoughts to  
think on tonight. Thank you!!

Bryce

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 3, 2007, at 9:16 PM, Lil Brother LLC <
lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net 
 > wrote:

> Bryce,
>
> Although I could answer your questions....I'm sure there are more  
> qualified
> people on the list to do that.
>
> But I do have a question for you.
>
> Are you possibly kin to someone who was in the Marine Corps in the  
> late
> 1980's to the early 1990's?
>
> The reason is the last name. I knew a Sergeant that was in my  
> squadron who's
> last name is Yarbrough. We were stationed in Tustin CA.
>
> If not it's cool. I just thought I may take a chance.
>
> James Long
> Owner/Designer
> Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
>
>