[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Double O-Ring On A Hatch



Brent,
           If the O ring is extruding then you have most likely exceeded your design depth, in which case I would guess something way more catastrophic would occurr before you would have to worry about your O- ring.   Here is a O ring diagram from the psubs picture gallery:
 
http://www.psubs.org/pic/oring.html
 
Brian Cox
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 20:22
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Double O-Ring On A Hatch

Good Evening Vance,
 
I would expect there would be some stories of hatch seals failing during WWII or other times from damage to the seal, defective material used for the O-ring, or dirt, sand, gravel, sticks or the like getting on the seals when in a hurry to dive.
 
I don't see how the hatch flanges wouldn't touch if the O-ring was removed. The hydrostatic pressure on the hatch surfaces presses in on the O-ring as well as through the gap in the flange, trying to deform the O-ring enough to touch the flange surfaces together. An O-ring can handle only so much pressure from the hatch before it bottoms out.  The hatch will apply more pressure to the furthest point of the O-ring from the hinge first to bottom out that area of the O-ring, unless you have the hatch designed to seat the flanges evenly, with or with-out a spring attached to the second pivot point on the hinge assembly.
 
 This is not to say that one doesn't acquire an O-ring with a large over kill rating, other wise known as FOS (factor of safety) to deal with the pressures expected.  If you have two or more hatch O-rings they can resist more pressure on the hatch then just one, before the flanges bottom out. This pressure on the hatch helps keep the seal on the O-ring(s), but once the pressure is high enough to bottom out the flange surfaces, the next step, if the pressure continues to increase, is for the O-ring to extrude and/or even more likely since the flange surfaces are now basically sealing the O-ring in its groove, the water will start to pass over the top of the O-ring, and shooting very high pressure blast of water at your head, if it's up in the hatch area, if you don't have another lip to your hatch flange to divert the water from hitting you directly. If your hatch isn't designed to seat the flanges evenly, then I would expect you would have a higher chance of the O-ring extruding at the closest point to the hatch hinge first, if the O-ring is going to extrude at all and not just let water pass over the top of it. 

Here is a quote from the first page of the Erick's PDF link below, provided by Øystein Skarholm.


"An O-ring seals through the deformation of the seal material by installation and media pressure to close off the gap
between mating components. Higher system pressures can cause deformation through the gap, known as extrusion,
resulting in seal failure. Choosing a harder seal material or installing back-up rings to support the O-ring may
alleviate this problem."

Regards,
Brent Hartwig



To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Double O-Ring On A Hatch
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 15:27:37 -0400
From: vbra676539@aol.com

No, never had a failure, as such. And, O-rings don't keep hatch and mating surfaces from touching, that would be a gasket. The O-ring itself is slightly compressed in the O-ring groove, water then squeezes in against it, compressing the ring further against the upper, lower and inner surfaces (looked at in cross section) of the groove, thus keeping the drips out. I've never seen double O-rings on a certified submersible--we had 'em for the reactor head out at the nuclear plant, but not on a temporary seal.
Vance


-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Hartwig <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 1:37 pm
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Double O-Ring On A Hatch

 
I have no doubte that single O-Rings are successful in sub hatches, as well as numerous other applications. One item I was thinking about, was that if you have two O-Rings in your hatch flange, of the same thickness as the same hatch with a single O-Ring, wouldn't you have twice the resistance in the double O-Ring hatch in keeping the mating flanges from touching (bottoming out). Also some custom O-Rings are spliced together, and if that outer O-Ring splice fails, you would have a back-up O-Ring to protect you. If your hatches are machined correctly, and the outer O-Ring fails by extrusion or cracking from very cold or hot tempertures, old age and/or manufactures inconsistency in material or process, then the second O-Ring might work perfectly. Many subs are left out in the hot sun, which can get the steel hulls very hot. This can be hard on plastic and rubber products.
 
I've seen a number of double O-Ring designs used in aquarium pump connections and covers. Perhaps this is better for stopping leaks in lower pressure system, like is used in most aquaria.
 
Does anyone here have a story of a hatch O-Ring failing?


Regards,
Brent Hartwig


> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 09:09:02 -0700
> From: clientes@tolimared.com
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Double O-Ring On A Hatch
>
> Hello Oystein,
>
> Very good link - thanks,
>
> I see your point what concerns difference to normal hatches - in fact
> i am considering the model of the scuba gear seal as a model for a
> deep diver - hatch i have in mind - could go to ocean bottom - based
> on concrete spheres...
>
> In any case the point seems to be that the mecanism that makes a
> o-ring fail is extrusion trough a gap. As long as you avoid this
> properly a o-ring will hold hundereds of bar = thousands of meter of
> waterdepth...
>
> If you have several rings and a big gap due to deficient machining -
> ALL of them will fail at the same depth.
>
> In hydraulics that normally work at that kind of pressure you have all
> kind of single o-rings...
>
>
> Cheers, Wil
>
>
> Quoting Øystein Skarholm <skarholm@gmail.com>:
>
> > In scubagear the seat for connenction between tank and the 1st stage is
> > spesial in that manner that the oring is in a deep groove and the 1st stage
> > seat goes into this groove, unlike one on a hatch. Having said that there
> > are plenty off hi pressure applications seald off using single o-ring.
> >
> > http://o-ring.info/en/technical%20manual/ERIKS%20-%20Technical%20Manual%20-%20O-Ring%20Sealing%20Principles.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/8/07, clientes@tolimared.com <clientes@tolimared.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> In a scuba gear the first stage - is attached to the tank with a
> >> single O- ring this single o-ring takes some 200bar in this
> >> configuration - or i am wrong on this? - So i also see no need of
> >> double ring in any application in a submarine.
> >> Cheers, Wil
> >>
> >> Quoting MerlinSub@t-online.de:
> >>
> >> > No idear why they make that.. one is just fine with lower
> >> > cost for rings, trench and paint maintance issue.
> >> >
> >> > I just pressuries my diverchamber with a
> >> > singel o-ring to 32 atmosp..
> >> >
> >> > Think better one with bigger diameter than two smalls.
> >> >
> >> > best regards Carsten
> >> >
> >> > "Brent Hartwig" <brenthartwig@hotmail.com> schrieb:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I finally found a double o-ring on a sub hatch. The sub on ebay
> >> >> right now called the Great Lake's Submarine mentioned earlier, has
> >> >> one. Here is the picture.
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=4001713&pid=7375620
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >> Brent Hartwig
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ************************************************************************
> >> > ************************************************************************
> >> > ************************************************************************
> >> > The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
> >> > CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
> >> > because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
> >> > from our organization.
> >> >
> >> > If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
> >> > link below or send a blank email message to:
> >> > removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >> >
> >> > Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
> >> > automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
> >> > our server receiving your request.
> >> >
> >> > PSUBS.ORG
> >> > PO Box 53
> >> > Weare, NH 03281
> >> > 603-529-1100
> >> > ************************************************************************
> >> > ************************************************************************
> >> > ************************************************************************
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ************************************************************************
> >> ************************************************************************
> >> ************************************************************************
> >> The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
> >> CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
> >> because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
> >> from our organization.
> >>
> >> If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
> >> link below or send a blank email message to:
> >> removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >>
> >> Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
> >> automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
> >> our server receiving your request.
> >>
> >> PSUBS.ORG
> >> PO Box 53
> >> Weare, NH 03281
> >> 603-529-1100
> >> ************************************************************************
> >> ************************************************************************
> >> ************************************************************************
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best Regards
> > Øystein Skarholm
> > www.ubat.no
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************************************************
> ************************************************************************
> ************************************************************************
> The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
> CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
> because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
> from our organization.
>
> If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
> link below or send a blank email message to:
> removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>
> Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
> automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
> our server receiving your request.
>
> PSUBS.ORG
> PO Box 53
> Weare, NH 03281
> 603-529-1100
> ************************************************************************
> ************************************************************************
> ************************************************************************
>
=

AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.