----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:26
PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet another
"drug" sub captured.
Peter,
Being polite is understandable. The u-boats, up untill after the
Laconia incident, did wat they could for survivors, from the ships that they
sunk. Not every u-boat did this, but from understanding, most did.
WIth the exception of U-852, u-boats followed the rules of war. So, I do
seperate actions at sea, from what the SS and the Nazi doctor's did in the
concentration camps. Sadly, no one has learned from history. The
Yugoslav Civil War, brought the use of concentration camps again.
I have seen the pictures of the cold water test. Very sad what they
did. But, the post war military groups, such as the Coast Guard, did
make use of the information from those test. But unlike the Nazi
doctors, the Coast Guard uses the information to saves lives. You are
correct that that medial experiment is not German. It was a Nazi
atrocity.
Yes the sinking of ships, did cause a high loss of life. I was
unaware that the USA military in WW2 used captured German soilders to clear
mine fields. That is very sad, and also a war crime, uner the laws used
at the Nuembeg Trials. I know of the USS Wahoo, on its third war patrol,
machine gunned survivors from a ship that it had sunk, but it did that a year
before U-852 did the same thing. No matter what nation does a war crime,
it is very sad that it happens. It is even more sad when the party
involved in the war crime, does not get held accontable for his/her
actions.
I do agree that we all share the guilt. But knowing history, we
should be able to prevent it. Sadly, people tend to view history as
boring or do not care about history. If we understand history, we can
better prevent war crimes and atrocities that happen.
Best regaurds as well,
James
Peter Madsen <peter@submarines.dk>
wrote:
James,
In writing "Nazi" submarines I simply
tried to be polite. In Germany you will typically say that the Nazi´s did
this and that - When the German guide in Concentration Camp
Sachenhausen shows the tourists piles of human hair and shoes -
she does not say - this is "German" industrialized murder - but that the
"Nazi´s" did this...so that she avoids being identified with
it.
Today - I saw a picture on wiki - showing
a person in a Luftwaffe uniform lying in a bathtub with icebloks around him.
He´s is German - but unfortunately also a Jew. With him is two Luftwaffe
medical officers - writing down his reactions on paper as he is slowly
freezing to death. They measure time vs. body temperature and takes notes
when he loses continence and when the heart finaly stops.
This is not a German medical experiment - this
is a Nazi atrocity.
The submarines of both US, Soviet and German
navies killed sailors, civilians and soldiers by the thousand in
much the same way ( in the pacific theater death is caused but other effects
- but result is the same ) - and for that matter my own beautiful peaceful
countrymen enjoyed killing German soldiers AFTER the surrender by using them
to clear minefields on the westcost - by forcing them to walk though
it.
In my humble opinion being humans we all share
the guilt - and the capability for war - and atrocities.
Its not a German, Soviet or US
specialty. Submarines did their gruesome part - and may do it
again.
One US Trident SSBN can destroy a continent in
about 15 minutes...and will do so if the President issues the order...I
think they have fifteen of those...fantastic machines...
Best regards, and back to joyrides in homemade
subs...
Peter
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 9:21
PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Yet
another "drug" sub captured.
I agree with you for the most part, how ever, I will disagree with
you about the nazi part. Nazi was just a shorted form of NSDAP,
national socialists german workers party. It was a political
party. So, I do seperate German Navy from nazi's, or nazi
navy. As for the submarines that the German Navy was planning onn
building, yes the Type XIX and Type XX were ambitious. They did end
up using the Type IX, as well as the Type XB for cargo. The Kraka is
a very beautiful submarine. I would be interested in knowing the
cost of building the Kraka. And yes you are correct, that there is
no right way to do something that is wrong.
James
Peter Madsen <peter@submarines.dk>
wrote:
Sirs,
Submarine technology have often been used
for malice purposes - ranging from anti merchant shipping campaigns
during the two world wars to nuclear deterrent during the cold war and
today. Bad of cause depends on the view
- fact is the submarine comes out very successful in most of these
missions and may today be considered one of the most effective
navel weapons in existence.
If the drug smugglers did it right - with
real uboats outfitted with diesel electric propulsion - and using
snorkels - frankly the transit from south American waters to US waters
would be very safe for them - when having the alternatives in mind.
Problems arise when on loading and off loading the cargo - but even
this has a technical solution.
I am sure the submarine would serve its
master as well as it served the Germans, US Navy
and Soviet Red Fleet in its day. Drugs destroys the
life of many people - and causes an incredible amount of crime -
and I hope those making the profit will be on trail - but like
the in the case of the
Nazi´s I am impressed with the
audacity that they display by trying to build an functional long
range
smuggling boat, while I hope for their
defeat...
One more reason - that I am surprised that
the highest bid for Kraka until now is 100 US $
It can take 500 kg cargo - it can do the
transit submerged and or snorkeling and can be outfitted for long
range... : o) and would be a fine iron coffin if anything went
wrong...
There is no way to do something that is
wrong in the right way...
Regards...
Peter
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