Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Real Live Submerge Testing on a 12 Volt Lawnmower Battery

Good Evening Vance,

Thank you for taking the time to post the below information. True I don't plan to use lawnmower batteries in my subs. I used that battery for a number of reasons; it's a 12 volt DC none sealed lead acid battery, basically like most batteries used in private subs in the past and present, it would be cheap to replace if damaged in the test, smaller battery = smaller explosion and/or shock, and it's what I had in hand. I would expect a larger non sealed lead acid battery to respond in the same basic way. I did the test to learn how to be safe in a submarine, and so I could design as safe of a sub as I could. For safety, I filled the bucket remotely from over 50 feet away, and behind a corner of the house, and the bucket was 30 feet from the house on concrete. When I did the jumper cable test, the battery was 6 feet away from me on the other side of the bucket, and I was wearing allot of protective clothing and a full face shield in case the battery exploded and through battery acid at me. When ever I work on a battery, or use jumper cables, I use protective eye wear at a bare minimum. I don't know how many times I've done and seen car engine compartments, including the battery, pressure washed with no apparent ill affects on the battery, or the person doing the washing nor the dogy in the window.

Having a battery explode in a enclosed hardened container, is not the same as it exploding in an open area. If I put a cup of gun powder on the concrete and light it remotely, you'll get a big flash and not much else. Now if you put that same amount of powder in a hard container, like a pipe with threaded end caps, you now have a whole nother animal. Hydrogen and/or chlorine gas exploding in a sealed contain because they got lit from a fuse is not the same as having a battery in the compartment with you, and it getting covered with water, unless you light the gas(s) some how after they build-up. In that story the gas exploded from a fuse igniting it, not just the batteries exploding on there own.

Time will tell if my mower battery is toasted, but I don't think it would be damaged, since myself and many others use larger and smaller batteries of all kinds to produce colloidal silver and hydrogen by way of electrolysis by using electrodes. Much like I did with the jumper cables. These batteries get drained over time, but nothing else. We just charge them again and again. I would highly suspect that having the battery submerged does the same basic thing, and just slowly drains the battery by producing hydrogen and oxygen tell spent. It's very true that a higher voltage and amperage system would produce allot more hydrogen and oxygen faster, of which I wouldn't want to be around, but that in and of it's self is not an explosion of the battery(s) until it gets ignited some how by something else besides the battery. I would think it would take some time to fully discharge the batteries in that manor. Now having batteries directly connected with wires that can act as an heating element would be very uncomfortable, if the fuses and/or ground fault protector(s) didn't work correctly.

Now I didn't touch the jumper cable ends together underwater while the battery was submerged, and I didn't open and expose the battery acid to the water. So that is another matter. That would be testing the battery submerged while under load, if I touched the cable ends together above or below the water or hooked them up to a car light or a electric motor. Having the battery by it's self submerged and producing hydrogen and O2 off the negative post, I would think could be considered testing while under a light load, depending on the salt and/or mineral content of the water.

Regards,

Brent Hartwig

To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Real Live Submerge Testing on a 12 Volt Lawnmower Battery
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 16:29:12 -0400
From: vbra676539@aol.com

Brent,

Will you be using lawnmower batteries for your submarine? I'm thinking not, and I'm also thinking that you need to talk with the manufacturers. Your experiment had somewhere in the neighborhood of exactly zip to do with a seawater intrusion incident, which has more to do with voltage levels and maximum load potential than anything else. Offshore, we often used a plastic barrel of seawater to deep discharge banks when equalization was necessary; just take two cables, positive and negative, add a couple of feet of copper to the ends, and dip. You'll get boiling water in no time, my friend, trust me.

As for chlorine gas, let me give you a cautionary tale--two, actually, one of which I was involved with. Two battery explosions, one on PC-9 and one on the old PLC-4. The former made VISIBLE chlorine gas (it really is green, by the way), and the latter blew a two hundred pound hatch completely off the submarine, all the way across the shop, and THROUGH a tin wall. Those were both 120 volt systems, with a 220 amp capacity. PC-9 got flooded with seawater due to a pod leak, which caused the violent discharge, which caused the acid to boil, which separated water into hydrogen and oxygen, which ignited and caused a horrific bang, pretty much in that order. Deep Diver had its charging vent closed during charging (an oversight), bubbled out gas, and when the overload came (from the over-charging), popped an internal in-line fuse, which made a spark, which made another one of those horrific bangs, and might well have killed a few people, had they not all been outside for lunch,! possibly congratulating each other on how clever they were.

Testing is one thing, my friend, but Ben Franklin at least had enough sense not to fly a kite on metal wire. Otherwise, we might never have heard about it. I'd hate for the same thing to happen to you. And, if I had to guess, I'd say your lawnmower battery probably has some warped plates, which means it ain't going to last much longer, all things considered. No harm, no foul? Maybe, but PLEASE, don't let this get to be a habit. There's as awful lot of potential in a battery bank, and it'll bite your butt if you aren't careful.

Best Regards,
Vance

-----Original Message-----
From: Brent Hartwig <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 2:54 pm
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Real Live Submerge Testing on a 12 Volt Lawnmower Battery

Ron,

When the battery was in seawater, the water slowly turned yellow. I'm not sure why. I don't have a way to test for Chlorine gas at the moment. Is there a cheap test, can you smell it? I'm not sure I want to smell it. When I make colloidal silver by electrolysis of pure silver electrodes, the distilled water becomes a light yellow. Perhaps the lead post are sluffing off lead into the water.

Regards,
Brent Hartwig

Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 10:23:07 -0700
From: ronleonard@shaw.ca
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Real Live Submerge Testing on a 12 Volt Lawnmower Battery
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org

Anyone heard that a battery submerged in salt water produces Chlorine gas? From those in the battery industry that I have asked it would appear to be true.

If it is correct, that would be a much larger problem than getting shocked or splashed with acid.

Ron

From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hartwig
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 10:28 PM
To: PSUBSorg
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Real Live Submerge Testing on a 12 Volt Lawnmower Battery

Well Boys and Girls, I did some testing.

Ya I know that usually means vacate the area with or without your shorts, to another county. But it's to late, I already did it. One can talk about it for only so long before they get off there arss and get dirty. It's more fun to.

So I removed a fully charged 12 volt lawn mower battery, I could do with out until next week, if it blow up anyways, and I did some testing. I then obtained a five gallon bucket, jumper cables, lots of protective clothing, and a full face shield, among other things. I then put the battery in an empty bucket and then put the end of the hose into it. Then I remotely filled the bucket with slightly hard freshwater, I don't remember what the PH of my water is. Nothing happened, or at least that's what I thought at first. I then removed the water and battery from the bucket and attached jumper cables to it in the normal fashion. When striking the ends of the cables together I got the normal sparks. When I put them underwater there was some weak hydrogen production from the negative lead. Then when I touched the leads together underwater, I got the same basic spark as I did out of the water.

Then I went and found my old stash of aquarium stuff, and pulled out some Instant Ocean brand sea salt and mixed it in freshwater, until I got a specific gravity of 1.21, like most sea water. I then removed the freshwater from the bucket and added the saltwater for some more testing. I tested the leads in the same way and got the same result, but with a bit more hydrogen production from the negative lead.

Next I added enough salt into the one gallon in the bucket to make three gallons of sea water, so I could completely submerge the battery. But before I added the water I mixed in the salt and tested the leads again. Now when I put the leads into the water on either side of the inside of the bucket, the negative lead produced allot more hydrogen. When I then touched the two leads under water there was a larger spark on the tangent surfaces and they tried to stick together. They didn't try to stick together in freshwater and not much in normal sea water. Point is that if you take your sub to the Great Salt Lake in Utah be careful.

Now I added two more gallons of freshwater to the mix, to get a specific gravity of 1.21 again, and put in the battery remotely. Nothing much happened, just some hydrogen production from the negative pole. This was just a cheap normal battery, not a AGM sealed type. I then did some testing and then put my bare finger in the water. Nothing, not even a tingle. I then lowered the level of the water to about an inch over the top of the poles. Then did some more testing and then put my finger directly between the poles, nothing.

I then removed the salt water and refilled it with freshwater and did the same testing, nothing. I would say that the battery would of slowly discharged by producing hydrogen until spent. No explosion when submerged in this way. The hydrogen in an enclosed space would be real bad news. You'll be safer in freshwater then salt since you'll have more time to get out before the hydrogen levels get to high. Still you better get out ASAP unless you can route the hydrogen into your AIP unit quickly. ; )'

Finally I reinstalled the battery in the mower and started the mower with no trouble. I learned allot from doing this, how about you? Just remember I'm a submarine half full kind of guy.

Here are my pictures of the submerged battery testing.

http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=4001713&pid=7357670

Regards,

Brent Hartwig

                  "Do or do not,        There is no try"

                                                                                  ~ Yoda

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