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Brent,
I appreciate the fact that you ambitious enough to do
battery testing. I don't know if I would have went that far.....but since you
did, here are some things I have considered.
Not all batteries are sealed......I would probably try and
design my sub to have a very good (read low) power demand. I would try and save
every amp I could in places that it would be relatively priced.
I would also try and use sealed batteries. They make
sealed batteries in various sizes, and types.
I would also explore the possibilities of locating the
batteries in a pod not connected to the crew compartment (not vented to it).
This can still cause an explosion....which at depth would be like a depth
charge, but the chances of sparks have been reduced. Also a leak detector could
be placed inside the separated pod to inform of water intrusion.
All of these ideas have problems....but they prevent a
large number of problems in an emergency.
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 11:05
PM
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Real Live
Submerge Testing on a 12 VoltLawnmower Battery
Good Evening
Vance,
Thank you
for taking the time to post the below information. True I don't plan to use
lawnmower batteries in my subs. I used that battery for a number of reasons;
it's a 12 volt DC none sealed lead acid battery, basically like most batteries
used in private subs in the past and present, it would be cheap to replace if
damaged in the test, smaller battery = smaller explosion and/or shock, and
it's what I had in hand.. I would expect a larger non sealed lead acid battery
to respond in the same basic way. I did the test to learn how to be safe in a
submarine, and so I could design as safe of a sub as I could. For safety, I
filled the bucket remotely from over 50 feet away, and behind a corner of the
house, and the bucket was 30 feet from the house on concrete. When I did the
jumper cable test, the battery was 6 feet away from me on the other side of
the bucket, and I was wearing allot of protective clothing and a full face
shield in case the battery exploded and through battery acid at me. When ever
I work on a battery, or use jumper cables, I use protective eye wear at a bare
minimum. I don't know how many times I've done and seen car engine
compartments, including the battery, pressure washed with no apparent ill
affects on the battery, or the person doing the washing nor the dogy in the
window.
Having a
battery explode in a enclosed hardened container, is not the same as it
exploding in an open area. If I put a cup of gun powder on the concrete
and light it remotely, you'll get a big flash and not much else. Now if you
put that same amount of powder in a hard container, like a pipe with threaded
end caps, you now have a whole nother animal. Hydrogen and/or chlorine gas
exploding in a sealed contain because they got lit from a fuse is not the same
as having a battery in the compartment with you, and it getting covered with
water, unless you light the gas(s) some how after they build-up. In that story
the gas exploded from a fuse igniting it, not just the batteries exploding on
there own.
Time will
tell if my mower battery is toasted, but I don't think it would be damaged,
since myself and many others use larger and smaller batteries of all
kinds to produce colloidal silver and hydrogen by way of
electrolysis by using electrodes. Much like I did with the jumper
cables. These batteries get drained over time, but nothing else. We just
charge them again and again. I would highly suspect that having the battery
submerged does the same basic thing, and just slowly drains the
battery by producing hydrogen and oxygen tell spent. It's very
true that a higher voltage and amperage system would produce allot more
hydrogen and oxygen faster, of which I wouldn't want to be around, but that in
and of it's self is not an explosion of the battery(s) until it gets ignited
some how by something else besides the battery. I would think it would take
some time to fully discharge the batteries in that manor. Now having batteries
directly connected with wires that can act as an heating element would be very
uncomfortable, if the fuses and/or ground fault protector(s) didn't work
correctly.
Now I
didn't touch the jumper cable ends together underwater while the battery was
submerged, and I didn't open and expose the battery acid to the water. So that
is another matter. That would be testing the battery submerged while under
load, if I touched the cable ends together above or below the water or hooked
them up to a car light or a electric motor. Having the battery by it's
self submerged and producing hydrogen and O2 off the negative
post, I would think could be considered testing while under a light
load, depending on the salt and/or mineral content of the
water.
Regards,
Brent
Hartwig
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Real
Live Submerge Testing on a 12 Volt Lawnmower Battery
Date: Tue, 7 Aug
2007 16:29:12 -0400
From: vbra676539@aol.com
Brent,
Will you be using lawnmower batteries for your submarine? I'm thinking
not, and I'm also thinking that you need to talk with the manufacturers.
Your experiment had somewhere in the neighborhood of exactly zip to do with
a seawater intrusion incident, which has more to do with voltage levels and
maximum load potential than anything else. Offshore, we often used a plastic
barrel of seawater to deep discharge banks when equalization was necessary;
just take two cables, positive and negative, add a couple of feet of copper
to the ends, and dip. You'll get boiling water in no time, my friend, trust
me.
As for chlorine gas, let me give you a cautionary tale--two,
actually, one of which I was involved with. Two battery explosions, one on
PC-9 and one on the old PLC-4. The former made VISIBLE chlorine gas (it
really is green, by the way), and the latter blew a two hundred pound hatch
completely off the submarine, all the way across the shop, and THROUGH a tin
wall. Those were both 120 volt systems, with a 220 amp capacity. PC-9 got
flooded with seawater due to a pod leak, which caused the violent discharge,
which caused the acid to boil, which separated water into hydrogen and
oxygen, which ignited and caused a horrific bang, pretty much in that order.
Deep Diver had its charging vent closed during charging (an oversight),
bubbled out gas, and when the overload came (from the over-charging), popped
an internal in-line fuse, which made a spark, which made another one of
those horrific bangs, and might well have killed a few people, had they not
all been outside for lunch,! possibly congratulating each other on how
clever they were.
Testing is one thing, my friend, but Ben
Franklin at least had enough sense not to fly a kite on metal wire.
Otherwise, we might never have heard about it. I'd hate for the same thing
to happen to you. And, if I had to guess, I'd say your lawnmower battery
probably has some warped plates, which means it ain't going to last much
longer, all things considered. No harm, no foul? Maybe, but PLEASE, don't
let this get to be a habit. There's as awful lot of potential in a battery
bank, and it'll bite your butt if you aren't careful.
Best
Regards,
Vance
-----Original Message-----
From: Brent
Hartwig <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>
To:
personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 2:54 pm
Subject:
RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Real Live Submerge Testing on a 12 Volt Lawnmower
Battery
Ron, When the
battery was in seawater, the water slowly turned yellow. I'm not sure why. I
don't have a way to test for Chlorine gas at the moment. Is there a cheap
test, can you smell it? I'm not sure I want to smell it. When I
make colloidal silver by electrolysis of pure silver electrodes, the
distilled water becomes a light yellow. Perhaps the lead post are sluffing
off lead into the water.
Regards,
Brent
Hartwig
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 10:23:07 -0700
From: ronleonard@shaw.ca
Subject: RE:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Real Live Submerge Testing on a 12 Volt Lawnmower
Battery
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Anyone
heard that a battery submerged in salt water produces Chlorine gas?
From those in the battery industry that I have asked it would appear
to be true.
If
it is correct, that would be a much larger problem than getting shocked or
splashed with acid.
Ron
Well
Boys and Girls, I did some testing.
Ya I know that
usually means vacate the area with or without your shorts, to another
county. But it's to late, I already did it. One can talk about it for only
so long before they get off there arss and get dirty. It's more fun
to.
So I removed a
fully charged 12 volt lawn mower battery, I could do with out until next
week, if it blow up anyways, and I did some testing. I then obtained
a five gallon bucket, jumper cables, lots of protective clothing, and a
full face shield, among other things. I then put the battery in an empty
bucket and then put the end of the hose into it. Then I remotely filled
the bucket with slightly hard freshwater, I don't remember what the PH of
my water is. Nothing happened, or at least that's what I thought at
first. I then removed the water and battery from the bucket and
attached jumper cables to it in the normal fashion. When striking the ends
of the cables together I got the normal sparks. When I put them underwater
there was some weak hydrogen production from the negative lead. Then when
I touched the leads together underwater, I got the same basic spark as I
did out of the water.
Then I went and
found my old stash of aquarium stuff, and pulled out some Instant Ocean
brand sea salt and mixed it in freshwater, until I got a specific gravity
of 1.21, like most sea water. I then removed the freshwater from the
bucket and added the saltwater for some more testing. I tested the
leads in the same way and got the same result, but with a bit more
hydrogen production from the negative
lead.
Next I added
enough salt into the one gallon in the bucket to make three gallons of sea
water, so I could completely submerge the battery. But before I added the
water I mixed in the salt and tested the leads again.. Now when I put the
leads into the water on either side of the inside of the bucket, the
negative lead produced allot more hydrogen. When I then touched the two
leads under water there was a larger spark on the tangent surfaces and
they tried to stick together. They didn't try to stick together in
freshwater and not much in normal sea water. Point is that if you
take your sub to the Great Salt Lake in Utah be
careful.
Now I added two
more gallons of freshwater to the mix, to get a specific gravity of 1.21
again, and put in the battery remotely. Nothing much happened, just some
hydrogen production from the negative pole. This was just a cheap normal
battery, not a AGM sealed type. I then did some testing and then put my
bare finger in the water. Nothing, not even a tingle. I then lowered the
level of the water to about an inch over the top of the poles. Then did
some more testing and then put my finger directly between the poles,
nothing.
I then removed
the salt water and refilled it with freshwater and did the same testing,
nothing. I would say that the battery would of slowly discharged by
producing hydrogen until spent.. No explosion when submerged in this
way. The hydrogen in an enclosed space would be real bad news. You'll be
safer in freshwater then salt since you'll have more time to get out
before the hydrogen levels get to high. Still you better get out ASAP
unless you can route the hydrogen into your AIP unit quickly. ;
)'
Finally I
reinstalled the battery in the mower and started the mower with no
trouble. I learned allot from doing this, how about you? Just remember I'm
a submarine half full kind of
guy.
Here are my
pictures of the submerged battery testing.
http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=4001713&pid=7357670
Regards,
Brent
Hartwig
"Do
or do not, There is no
try"
~ Yoda =
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