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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] NR-2 Thruster Arrangement
Joe,
I think we can work it out, so you don't have to sell your first born. Or
whichever one is still at home (whatever the case may be).
Just about anyway you go with thrusters, there is a way to control them
proportionally, so the choice is your. (Like it always wasn't .....:-)
I appreciate the effort on the title.....I still haven't looked through the
archives on here....I really need to do that.
Airplane or sub......hmmm.....interesting delima..... I choose nothing at
the moment....budget won't allow it.
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Perkel" <joeperkel@hotmail.com>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] NR-2 Thruster Arrangement
".............The further you pushed the stick...the faster the movement
would happen (well the more thrust in that direction would
happen).........."
James,
I've thought of this as well and, have concluded that I will look into
what's what when it comes down to the nut's and bolts design work.
By the way, I do have the book Jay refers to on E motors, I will have to dig
it out, I cannot recall the title at the moment. The author did much
experimentation and documented what did not work as well as what did....very
valuable!
Expensive? Yes, I can build one airplane or this....I chose this! :)
Joe
>From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
>Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] NR-2 Thruster Arrangement
>Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:20:47 -0500
>
>Joe,
>
>I just noticed (the light finally went on) about something you posted
>earlier:
>
>"Directional control one hand....rate (current flow) the
>other. Joystick back all four thrust downward for rise, joystick
>forward all thrust upward for descent."
>
>I would probably do this different. If done in the appropriate manner, the
>controls could be setup proportionally. The further you pushed the
>stick...the faster the movement would happen(well the more thrust in that
>direction would happen).
>
>This would simplify your controls greatly. One hand doing thruster control
>(up, down, left, right, and spin about it's vertical axis), and the other
>hand handling the rudder(possibly differential primary drive motors) and
>primary drive motors. This does depend on the method of rudder control and
>the extent that you are willing to take the control system. This would make
>the system totally in both hands other than ballast control, which could be
>done as well, but that can be discussed later.
>
>This doesn't simplify the surfaced maneuvering problems of the vessel. You
>could put an additional button to enable the horizontal thruster for
>surface
>operations(this would also disable the x thrusters). Then the standard
>controls could be used.
>
>All of this sounds expensive, but it can be done much cheaper than most
>people think. Hence the reason I want to help. Plus I need a project to
>help
>with.
>
>
>James Long
>Owner/Designer
>Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
>
>From: "Joseph Perkel" <joeperkel@hotmail.com>
>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 4:04 PM
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] NR-2 Thruster Arrangement
>
>
>".........I would like to see your thruster design (actual motor pod), if
>that would be
>possible.........."
>
>James,
>
>I don't know yet, this is the "detail" stuff. What I am doing is
>determining the concept and, then what it takes to do it.
>
>You already have what I will start with, the K boat plans. Beyond that, I
>will likely dissect a trolling motor, a well pump, and mine the ROV
>groups,.... all for ideas. This along with various courses and texts. What
>you see in the model is basic shapes, a cylinder, kort nozzle and, a prop
>based on the size of the large Minn-Kotas.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
> >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> >Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] NR-2 Thruster Arrangement
> >Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:03:03 -0500
> >
> >Joe,
> >
> >The rigging can be done with different thrusters, but I'm not sure what
> >situations may arise. I think it would be safe to assume (that word
>again)
> >that the thrusters (once balanced) should work correctly in most
> >situations.
> >The controls (if done right) should be very intuitive after an hour of
> >operating.
> >
> >This is all based on theory in my case. The balancing of the thrusters
> >could
> >reduce some of their functionality. For example.....in a vertical
>descent,
> >the two forward "x" thrusters would have to be turned down, for the one
> >rear
> >vertical thruster to keep up. It may turn out to be the opposite is true,
> >I'm not sure at this point. This could all be done with a microcontroller
> >setup, and would be independent from pilot thought.
> >
> >The problem....the vertical descent would be slower. You see the
>evolution
> >happening here.
> >
> >I would like to see your thruster design(actual motor pod), if that would
> >be
> >possible.
> >
> >James Long
> >Owner/Designer
> >Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Joseph Perkel" <joeperkel@hotmail.com>
> >To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> >Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 2:10 PM
> >Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] NR-2 Thruster Arrangement
> >
> >
> >Brent,
> >
> >I am assuming, (yet to confirm), that rigging the controls will be easier
> >and more intuitive with both fore and aft in the X. Joystick left, or
> >joystick right, all four are powered but in different directions.
> >Directional control one hand....rate (current flow) the other. Joystick
> >back
> >all four thrust downward for rise, joystick forward all thrust upward for
> >descent.
> >
> >Also, for surface maneuvering, I'll get some twisting moment out of the
>aft
> >mains in opposition. Might as well maximize this force around the
>vertical
> >axis with a lateral as far forward as possible. I added one here..
> >http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=269116&pid=7143130&myphotos=1
> >
> >Lucky for me, I'll be building all these thrusters and testing them in
>the
> >pool long before, the sub itself!
> >
> >Incidentally, the only "glue" time I get on the computer, is late at
>night
> >to do CAD work at the expense of my sleep. The rest of the time is hit
>-n-
> >run and, drive by emails!
> >
> >Thanks for helping me "think" this through, I call it "walking design",
> >it's
> >what occupies my mind when walking around....... Drives my wife insane!
> >
> >Joe
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Brent Hartwig" <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>
> > >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] NR-2 Thruster Arrangement
> > >Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:59:27 -0700
> > >
> > >
> > >Good Morning Joe
> > >
> > >
> > >I caught you glued to the computer again, didn't I? ; )'
> > >
> > >In regards to the NR-2 thruster arrangement, I was thinking about your
> >aft
> > >X thrusters and thought it might perhaps be a better and cheaper
> > >arrangement for the aft thrusters to just be the basic one vertical and
> >one
> > >horizontal. This way you'll have the use of the horizontal thruster for
> > >surface ops, without adding one in addition to the X thrusters in the
> >rear
> > >of your sub, like your thinking of doing in the bow. If I understand
> > >correctly, the X thruster arrangement is primarily to limit the debris
> >and
> > >mud that would be stirred up even more by a vertical thrust causing you
> > >trouble in visibility in you view ports. So since you don't have any
> >stern
> > >view ports that I'm aware of I thought the X thruster arrangement might
> >not
> > >be the best option for the stern of NR-2.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >
> > >Brent Hartwig
> > >
> > >
> > >"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. "
> > >
> > > -- Groucho
>Marx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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