I'm not a welding expert, I suggest you talk with Frank D. about welding and/or check out some of the forums great posting on welding. What I would say from what I've gathered from my relitive that fabricates back-hoe buckets for a living is, that if you use a flux cored MIG wire allong with a shielding gas(s) and clean the welding area really well, you should be able to weld most, if not all your sub this way.
Some like to use TIG welds for there root welds on through hulls, because it tends to get well sealed welds, with very little if any porosity. That is why allot of gas tanks are welded with TIG.
I have a local friend that fabricates and welds stainless steel tanks of a high quality. I'm planning on having him fabricate out of 316 stainless steel my VBT's, gas tanks, fresh water tanks, diesel tanks, etc. for my subs.
The thru hull welds on his tanks used to be done with TIG, since they looked so nice and sealed great. But that took to long compared to MIG, and they can get the MIG welds totally sealed. So now they mostly just use MIG. The heads he uses are pressed and then welded on with a special automated MIG machine. Last week I finished some CAD drawings for him to get the shapes of the hole cutouts for tubes that are welding off to one side of the tanks. I have the sheet metal program in Solidworks that allows me to build a sheet metal type part in 3D and then lay it flat to take drawings off of it. I also had to design a couple of stainless steel template jigs to mark the small pipes as well as the tanks them selves, where they need to be cut. The jigs would likely be CNC laser, or aqua jet cut out of 1/8" stainless steel plate and then rolled.
If your going to use TIG, just remember that it puts allot more heat to the parts being welded, and it takes a lot longer then MIG. So if you are worried about warping your parts with the heat from the TIG, you might want to use just MIG and/or carefully stitch weld the parts with MIG or TIG or just duck tape it together. Duck tape won't add any heat to your parts so you won't get any warping. Also if your going to switch between MIG, TIG, Stick, and a cutting torch, your going to want a great auto darkening helmet that has three of more darkness settings like the higher end GE Speedglass helmets. They tend to run about $325.
For very thick parts, (of which most of use are not needing on are subs) I've been told high amperage stick machine is the way to go.
If I have any holes in my logic above I hope the group enlightens us.
Best Regards,
Brent Hartwig
From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:01:59 -0500
Brent,
So, they have been made in multiple ways. I figure spinning would be the cheapest. There is less labor involved with a spun piece of metal, although you still need the mold (form).
I've been thinking about what processes would be needed to build and complete a sub. I can get just about anything made.(Since I don't have any machinery). I would outsource it all.
I can weld......which brings up another question. Is there any specifications on wire or stick welding? I would prefer wire......easier logistically.....and I hate stick welding.....
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
James,
From what I understand the spun heads are the best, since they have a even thickness. The pressed heads can be great to, but will need to be made out of a little thicker metal to get the same strength as the spun heads, since they are thinner in the middle from the metal being stretched. It' wouldn't be practical for most aplications to machine the heads. Some heads are casted, but are allot more brittle then the other types.
Since the spun and pressed heads are usually made from annealed steal so there easier to form, you could have them annealed again to take out allot of the stresses put into them from the forming process. Then if you wish, they can be tempered to make them even harder. But I would design the heads to be used in an annealed state, so they can take a collision with a boat, rocks, etc. which would just likely dent them instead of cracking them, like if they were tempered to much.
From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:51:08 -0500
Brent,
I can just about draw anything in Inventor...... Now assembling those pieces can get tricky...like aligning the bubble on top of that partially rounded topped tube.....that sucked...I had to think about it some. The Dome wouldn't be symmetrical, so it would have to go on one way (this is because it is a slice of a dome....not a true hemi-sphere)
I've been working on my sub design.......I may take you up on the files....but let me get it a little further done. I started with structure rings on the outside of the crew hull.....I'm going to move the rings to the inside for better strength and easier ballast tank construction. It will require a floor plate to be made for the crew cabin, but that just means less weight to add later.
I do have a question........do you know, how are the end metal domes for the crew compartment made? Are they spun? Pressed? Machined? I'm sort of wondering, because metal that shape can be a major pain in the ass to find.
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
Hi James,
I'm self taught as well, and have found a few tricks. I've also found that having short video tutorials from a couple of different sources helps tremendously. I have archived loads of short video tutorials, that if you wanted, I could burn them onto a DVD and send them to you. I just take it one tool at a time.
I would share my Solidworks files with you as well as just about anyone else. I've found Solidworks to be a very robust CAD program that I haven't hardly scratched the surface with yet in regards to what it can do. That doesn't mean it's that hard to use, just deep. If you get stuck just email or better yet call me.
Brent
From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:00:27 -0500
Brent,
I already posted on the iges and step files......would have to see how they turned out after conversion.
I stared with Inventor many years ago, and haven't spent anytime converting to Solid Works. I really like Inventor...but it is a pain to do some things. Plus I'm self taught.....so I really don't want to learn something new. Solid Works is partially like Inventor....but some of the procedures are so different, I could just about draw the part before I could figure out how to start with SW.
I have a friend in Russia who (I think) has human models.....I'll check. I know he uses Solid Works.
I could be persuaded to use Solid Works if people are going to share.
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
James,
Ugly as a dogs butt perhaps, but my dog Harley likes it. ; )' That hull was just for fun. You win some and loose the rest. In regards to a human model, I need to do the same thing. Carsten some time back, posted some human profiles on the Moki picture exchange I was planning to use as a base to model mine in Solidworks. Obviously Joe has a human model, but so far we have not figured out how to exchange IGES or STEP files that work. Perhaps we should try again Joe. Will your CAD program Inventor except IGES or STEP files. STL files should also work, but they don't give you as smooth of models as IGES or STEP files. I think you said you have Solidworks, so why would you want to use Inventor? I'll be interesting in seeing your model of the swing able half ladder.
Regards,
Brent
From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:24:45 -0500
Brent,
Yep...that is the basic idea....but I hate the lines of your sub. It's about as ugly as a dogs butt. (Sorry.....couldn't resist) I'm a more formal lines type of person. Not to say new shapes and ideas are not viable or possible, I just like the way the tubular shape of a sub looks.
I've been working on the design some, but haven't had a chance to put anything on the web (mainly because I'm not finished yet).
I know what I could really use....a model of a person for inventor. I need the representation (movable) to make sure the sub scales out to the right size.
With the Stepped sail design.....it is important to know the average shoulder width.......so the person in the top dome can actually move.
I did decide the pilot (captain, driver, etc.) will be located in the lower dome......it would be far to hard to position instrument and controls in the top dome.
Also I'm working on a boarding idea for the upper dome......like a swingable half ladder. when pressure is put on it.....it locks in position, then the ladder has spring indents for other positions when no pressure is on it.
I'm actually trying to incorporate all the necessary piping and bulkheads ( and such) as I go. I do not have an extensive library......so some of the items will be just blocks.
James Long
Owner/Designer
Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 3:06 AM
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
Greetings James,
It can and has been done. I would add some thickness to the flange at the angle joint. Here is the model I just finished of a stepped sail basicly like the one you showed use. I was just going to build the sail 3D model, but I got carried away.
Regards,
Brent Hartwig
"Consistency is the refuge of the unimaginative. "
- - Oscar Wilde
From: "Lil Brother LLC" <lil_brother_llc@bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Stepped sail design .....opinions?
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 17:15:44 -0500
>So Joe Perkel and I have been having a thorough discussion.....which I've
>enjoyed the exchange.
>
>I have some questions about the image that is attached. (Sorry....hated to
>kill the bandwidth, but didn't know how to le the image be accessible.)
>
>Does the image have a chance to be successful?
>
>Will the angled mounting of the dome hatches cause any structural weakness
>(other than the acrylic dome itself! )?
>
>I know anyone who answers is doing so with the best intentions. I know that
>only real life testing is the only way to know for sure.
>
>My design is only for a depth of 250 ft max.
>
>Also understand.....the drawing is a preliminary......just drawn up to
>discuss the possible flaws of the idea.
>
>James Long
>Owner/Designer
>Lil Brother LLC (Instrument Division)
><< SteppedSailDesign.jpg >>
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