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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
Thijs, my expirence with signal bouys in open water is that they attract the attention of recreational boats , special sailboats... maybe they think that it something lost and to catch like a fender.. they come closer and closer to inspect it..
Make bubbles is maybe a better idear..
best regards Carsten
"Thijs Struijs" <thijs-struijs@planet.nl> schrieb:
> Peter,
>
> I presume that when you surface you have some speed and you operate in waters were you have to deal with big and noisy ships.
> For small subs, operating in recreational waters and surfacing at zero speed i was thinking of a buoy as used by scuba divers. The (pressure-resistant) buoy should be attached to a 5 mtr. line. When surfacing you could wait for let's say a minute at 5 mtr.depth before comming to the surface. This works for scuba divers, so why should it not work for subs. If you combine the buoy with a flashing light and a rotating camera it should work even better.
>
> Regards,
>
> Thijs Struijs
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter Madsen
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 11:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>
>
> Jay,
>
>
> Kraka, the diesel-electric boat I pilot have both up looking windows and features a periscope. This is based on four cameras each covering 90 deg of the horizon. By choosing to look a say camera four I know that I am looking aft while no two give me the starborad view - and so on. My idea for the final solution on the collision problem was to make a buoy with say 60 feet of cable on it. Its formed like a long pole with the four camera at the top, a flotation device at the middle and ballast at the bottom. Poles standing in the water like this can be quite stable ( provided the uboat don't make way )
>
> My experience is that anything on as submarine must be made with great care. We have had many problems with flooded GPS antennae, moisture in the periscope and broken diveplanes ( they protrude ) and the answer is always to make things better, stronger and more carefully. Most of these problems have solutions that can not be found at the drawing board alone.
>
> Solving it - is half the fun...
>
> One of our special problems is that our boat in only drydocked once a year so many improvements or repairs comes only in these service periods. One of the features of a trailer based submarine is that it sits in your living room...most of the time. This is just not the case wih Kraka.
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
>
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>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jay K. Jeffries
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:43 AM
> Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>
>
> Peter,
>
> I agree with you that a collision on or near the surface is one of the most likely major accidents to happen to a PSUB. This is supported by submarine history demonstrating that this is one of the largest causes of submarines under peace-time conditions.
>
>
>
> The ABS included the requirements for a small porthole in the hatch so that you could look up while approaching the surface and hopefully see the shadow of a vessel overhead that is silent or stopped. Larger submarines with a periscope have the capability to train the scope's top lens upwards to accomplish the same feat. Many sub's operating procedures include a pause in ascent near the surface to look and listen for other vessels in the near vicinity.
>
>
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> If you do not have much internal noise in your PSUB, you should hear most power vessels while still at some distance. A trainable hydrophone will help discern the direction. The cabled camera is a good substitute for a periscope but will be difficult to obtain a stable image with known viewing direction on the surface. Just remember that gadgets just require more maintenance and can detract from pleasurable operating time.
>
> R/Jay
>
>
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> Respectfully,
>
> Jay K. Jeffries
>
> Andros Is., Bahamas
>
>
>
> A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge.
>
>
>
> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Peter Madsen
> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 6:28 PM
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collition with surface vessel
>
>
>
> Hi Psubbers,
>
>
>
>
>
> When people talk of submarine safety the situation most often assumed is a sub in distress on the seabed. This is of cause a very critical situation,
>
> and we all design boats that are redundant in many ways so that we hopefully never get in that situation.
>
>
>
> In my practical experience - however - getting hit by a passing surface vessel when being at or very close to surface is a much more likely incident. Depending on the speed and size of the vessel and submarine any level of damage is possible - and the sub I likely to sink with its pressurehull ruptured to some extent after the collision.
>
>
>
> We are currently adding hydrophones to Kraka for detection and classification of surface sound contacts, and we are designing a cable camera for the UC3 - that can be send up prior to surfacing. We hope these technical gadgets may make it more safe to operate our subs.
>
>
>
> The professionel submariners ( navy ) that I have talked to say that they solely depend on their passive sensors - hydrophone arrays - and they have zero way of detecting a drifting - stopped or sailing vessel.
>
>
>
> What do other non navy submarine operator do - how do you psubbers handle this safety issue ? Most people ask me why we don't just have an underwater radar ?! - or is it sonar - a sea surface hull detection device...like the navy...
>
>
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> Well - what do you do ?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Peter Madsen
>
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>
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