Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel

[MerlinSub@t-online.de]

Bouy should look like a old WWII contact-horn - dark grey and rusty seamine.. :-) 

But in the US-waters they shoot them maybe down.. 

b.regards carsten

"Ken F" <syber_psubber@yahoo.com> schrieb:
> Peter,
>    
>   I've got a great idea on how to improve on your buoy idea.  I understand what you mean about it suddenly appearing and attracting surface craft.  
> So instead, rig it with warning beacons, and a large inflatable banner with a biohazard or radiation sign.  Throw in some geiger counter crackling sound effects, a recorded cautionary voice, maybe purge some gas up to the surface...,   in 5 minutes you wouldnt have anything within 5 miles around to come up under 
>   =P
> 
> Ken
>    
>   -  no actually, in all seriousness, couldnt you just use a normal "warning, do not come near" sign?  "Please clear the area"  something like that?  
>   In lieu of announcing your presence, I like Les's vertical piece of pvc...  its lo-tech.  And if it hits anything hard enough it'll just snap off.   
>   
> 
> Peter Madsen <peter@submarines.dk> wrote:
>       v\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  o\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  w\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  .shape {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }              Thijs,
>    
>   Mostly we operate a very low speed...in recreational waters...but a silent sailboat still is a problem. Back when I sailed with Freya in 2002 - I used a diver buoy exactly like you describe. It was bright yellow and hade a big diver flag on it. Unfortunately it attracted recreational boats much more than making them stay clear - so I stopped using it. 
>    
>   Once you get hit - it really doesn't matter who were right and who were wrong in accordance to maritime law. 
>    
>   I like the idea of using hydrophones and visual systems since I feel its us - the submariners - not the other recreational and commersial vessels that 
>   must prevent this problem. 
>    
>   Regards,
>    
>   Peter
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Thijs Struijs 
>   To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org 
>   Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 9:37 AM
>   Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>   
> 
>   Peter,
>    
>   I presume that when you surface you have some speed and you operate in waters were you have to deal with big and noisy ships. 
>   For small subs, operating in recreational waters and surfacing at zero speed i was thinking of a buoy as used by scuba divers. The (pressure-resistant) buoy should be attached to a 5 mtr. line. When surfacing you could wait for let's say a minute at 5 mtr.depth before comming to the surface. This works for scuba divers, so why should it not work for subs. If you combine the buoy with a flashing light and a rotating camera it should work even better.          
>    
>   Regards,
>    
>   Thijs Struijs
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Peter Madsen 
>   To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org 
>   Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 11:06 AM
>   Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>   
> 
>   Jay,
>    
>    
>   Kraka, the diesel-electric boat I pilot have both up looking windows and features a periscope. This is based on four cameras each covering 90 deg of the horizon. By choosing to look a say camera four I know that I am looking aft while no two give me the starborad view - and so on. My idea for the final solution on the collision problem was to make a buoy with say 60 feet of cable on it. Its formed like a long pole with the four camera at the top, a flotation device at the middle and ballast at the bottom. Poles standing in the water like this can be quite stable ( provided the uboat don't make way )
>    
>   My experience is that anything on as submarine must be made with great care. We have had many problems with flooded GPS antennae, moisture in the periscope and broken diveplanes ( they protrude ) and the answer is always to make things better, stronger and more carefully. Most of these problems have solutions that can not be found at the drawing board alone. 
>      
>   Solving it - is half the fun...
> 
>    
>   One of our special problems is that our boat in only drydocked once a year so many improvements or repairs comes only in these service periods. One of the features of a trailer based submarine is that it sits in your living room...most of the time. This is just not the case wih Kraka. 
>    
>   Regards,
>    
>   Peter
>    
>    
>    
>    
>    
>    
>    
>    
>    
>    
>    
>    
>     ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Jay K. Jeffries 
>   To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org 
>   Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:43 AM
>   Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collision with surface vessel
>   
> 
>     Peter,
>   I agree with you that a collision on or near the surface is one of the most likely major accidents to happen to a PSUB.  This is supported by submarine history demonstrating that this is one of the largest causes of submarines under peace-time conditions.
>    
>   The ABS included the requirements for a small porthole in the hatch so that you could look up while approaching the surface and hopefully see the shadow of a vessel overhead that is silent or stopped.  Larger submarines with a periscope have the capability to train the scope?s top lens upwards to accomplish the same feat.  Many sub?s operating procedures include a pause in ascent near the surface to look and listen for other vessels in the near vicinity.
>    
>   If you do not have much internal noise in your PSUB, you should hear most power vessels while still at some distance.  A trainable hydrophone will help discern the direction.  The cabled camera is a good substitute for a periscope but will be difficult to obtain a stable image with known viewing direction on the surface.  Just remember that gadgets just require more maintenance and can detract from pleasurable operating time.
>   R/Jay
>    
>      
>   Respectfully,
>   Jay K. Jeffries
>   Andros Is., Bahamas
>    
>   A skimmer afloat is but a submarine, so poorly built it will not plunge.
> 
>    
>       From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Peter Madsen
> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 6:28 PM
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collition with surface vessel
> 
> 
>    
>     Hi Psubbers,
> 
>      
> 
>      
> 
>     When people talk of submarine safety the situation most often assumed is a sub in distress on the seabed. This is of cause a very critical situation, 
> 
>     and we all design boats that are redundant in many ways so that we hopefully never get in that situation.
> 
>      
> 
>     In my practical experience - however - getting hit by a passing surface vessel when being at or very close to surface is a much more likely incident. Depending on the speed and size of the vessel and submarine any level of damage is possible - and the sub I likely to sink with its pressurehull ruptured to some extent after the collision. 
> 
>      
> 
>     We are currently adding hydrophones to Kraka for detection and classification of surface sound contacts, and we are designing a cable camera for the UC3 - that can be send up prior to surfacing. We hope these technical gadgets may make it more safe to operate our subs.
> 
>      
> 
>     The professionel submariners ( navy ) that I have talked to say that they solely depend on their passive sensors - hydrophone arrays - and they have zero way of detecting a drifting - stopped or sailing vessel. 
> 
>      
> 
>     What do other non navy submarine operator do - how do you psubbers handle this safety issue ? Most people ask me why we don't just have an underwater radar ?! - or is it sonar - a sea surface hull detection device...like the navy...
> 
>      
> 
>     Well - what do you do ?
> 
>      
> 
>     Regards,
> 
>      
> 
>     Peter Madsen 
> 
>      
> 
>    
>     
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