Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sea Phantom Sea Trials

Vance,

Allot of the syntactic foams out there have great insulation properties, and are being used in many areas. One is for covering deep water oil pipelines. I'm not just looking for insulation value. I'm looking for flotation, and hull strength properties. I live in long johns and I don't want to. ; )' The outer hull will be much more dent resistent in a collision with a log, rock, or boat.

There is also a large safety advantage of having a sub that can still be positively buoyant if the ballest tank system fails completely, and you have the interior of the hull half or more full and all you have to do is release one or more of your drop weights. I'm looking to add SCUBA tanks and more syntactic foam on the catamaran wing plateform I plan to bolt to the top of this K-250. We want more battery storage space and so may build a releasable battery pod weldment to the bottom of the sub and move the main drop weights lower below the five new battery pods. Can you say more power?

I figured that if we treated and primered the metal very carefully with high quality high zinc primer and then covered it with syntactic foam which will protect the primer from getting damaged it would work. Because of expansion/contraction issues between the metal hull and the foam perhaps using a Rhino liner type of material it will flex enough to keep everything working together. The Rattleguard liner brand claims to be able to be put on bare metal.

http://www.rattleguard.com/faqs.htm#Do_you_need_a_primer_

If this doesn't work, look on the bright side, myself and the PSUB group will learn from it, and perhaps come up with a better way to go about it. If it does work then we have more options in building are subs. What can I say, I'm a submarine half full kind of guy.

Regards,

Brent duck tape expert

From: vbra676539@aol.com
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sea Phantom Sea Trials
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 09:36:17 -0500

I, for one, would like to know why on earth you would use a floatation technology for its insulating properties, INSIDE the submarine. It is absolutely guaranteed to trap moisture and cause rust problems in future. Why not just put on a pair of long johns? As for polycarbonate viewports--this group has beaten that horse to death--please, please, please read the threads and do the research before using such an unsuitable material for part of your pressure boundary.

Vance

-----Original Message-----
From: joeperkel@hotmail.com
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Sent: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sea Phantom Sea Trials

Brent,

"syntactic foam, comprised of West Systems epoxy and 3 namo meter sized glass micro spheres"

.....I,... and I'm sure others, would be interested in a recipe for consistent results.

So you want to fly over mountains in a psub eh?, May I suggest an instrument rating first! :) One thing fun about this group, is brainstorming technical problems, practicality aside, to come up with potentially viable solutions....always an interesting exercise which occasionally pays off in other areas.

Ok, here we go.

As an amateur psubber and a former professional aviator, I am taken with the similarities as well as the opposites of the two disciplines. The two, with regard to weight/mass, could not be on more opposite ends of the spectrum. This is why composites, with their strength to weight ratio, is not a practical choice for pressure hulls.

If you want a psub to fly, you have to deal with a reality. That is that current technology will not allow you to get away with this in a single unit. Power requirement for such a payload requires fuel which requires volume, a situation of diminishing returns where a flying sub is concerned.

So you are left with a situation where your payload, (the sub/cockpit), would need to be mated with an appropriate airframe. This is not a unique concept, the Taylor Aerocar was successful in application, but a practical failure.

http://www.airventuremuseum.org/collection/aircraft/Taylor%20Aerocar.asp

So if one were inclined to spend the money and time, yes a flying sub is indeed possible. However, my guess is that a separate plane and sub, would be cheaper than trying to mate the two.

Joe

From: "Brent Hartwig" <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sea Phantom Sea Trials
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:04:41 -0800

Joe,

I would like to see those links Carsten has. I think the only submersible I've seen with hydrofoils is the Bionic Dolphin VASH craft, and yes it takes allot of power. They have a 425 horse power aluminum Corvette motor in it. For the depths that I want to go to, say 300 meters I'll have a separate pressure hull for the engine with the read head of that pressure hull being a hatch closed with a locking ring type system so I can get to all of the engine easily when out of the water. I would also have a smaller hatch on top of the motor pressure hull for some basic work on the engine on the water. I like the Cummins diesels that can use bio diesel fuels.

I have a number of what I think are reasonably good ideas for retractable hydrofoils, but since there was already so much new technology in this design, I was thinking of doing them on a second model down the road when I had a better idea of what all goes into this type of craft. I don't want to get bogged down with so many expenses and complicated parts that it took me twenty years to get it done.

The Sea Phantom from what I can see so far has allot of draw on those retractable sponsons when they are fully extended. Unless I'm not seeing a shapely angled rear section of those skis. Getting the nose up like that will help when dealing with waves but I think the Earthrace boat is allot better technology for making a smooth ride on larger waves. The Earthrace boat how ever is very susceptible to hitting a log of the like on the waters surface at high speeds, and with that plumb bow it's going to do some damage. Of course hydrofoils don't do so swell when you hit a large log with them either. There must be some story's out there of hydrofoil boats hitting things with there hydrofoils down.

http://www.earthrace.net/view.asp

You said it Joe, I want a "Sea Skimmer Submersible" and some day a flying submersible, and not just a ekranoplan mind you, but a real plane that can fly over mountains. But that's way down the road unless someone has a whole lot of money burning a whole in there pocket. Can you say MORE POWER.

Don't forget my "Amphibious Submersible Four Wheel Drive Hydrofoil SUV" using retractable Michelin Tweel's that looks allot like a Star Wars Snow Speeder or Hummer.

Then there is the "Ambient Night Rider KITT Submersible" starting with a 1983 Pontiac Trans Am that is cut up every way but Sunday, with a catamaran ski boat bottom.

http://www.adiautotech.com/1stnose.htm

That's just the short list.      Joe, I'll bet your sorry you ever asked.

But I have not totally lost it since I'm starting with a K-250 restoration with all the intellectual help I can handle. I've already got a bolt on catamara platform design in the works to mount to the K-250 for surface stability, wave protection when the hatch is open on the surface and walking space all covered in Rhino coat. This sub already sank once because a rogue wave got water in the open hatch when it was on the surface without anyone in it.

I'm talking with Karl Stanley and Doc right now about types of self mixing syntactic foam, comprized of West Systems epoxy and 3 namo meter sized glass micro spheres, to fill the space between the interior support rings after we install horizontal T steel supports between the rings. This will give us great insulation value, allot of extra strength in the hull, and a extra factor of safety if the main hull starts to fill with water. This does not mean I plan to take the sub deeper then 250 feet when occupied. Once the syntactic foam is cured I'm thinking of Rhino coating the whole interior in a light grey color for easy cleaning. Since we are replacing all the thru hulls any way, we can have the new stainless steel thru hulls come further into the hull so we can trawl the syntactic foam around them. Of course we will need to use a metal prep cleaner then a high quality zinc primer on the sandblased bare steel.

Regards,

Brent

"Everything which is wished and can be imagined - can be achieved.

The optimist at heart, but not deprived feelings of a reality. "

From:  "Joseph Perkel" <joeperkel@hotmail.com>
Reply-To:  personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To:  personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject:  Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sea Phantom Sea Trials
Date:  Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:15:54 +0000
>
>......That shape no doubt is to serve two purposes, streamlining and
>radar non- reflectivity (stealth), for a hopeful military contract.
>They just might do it, the Seals are likely to at least look at it.
>
>Is this what you are after Brent, for a submersible?...this type of
>dual role? Sea skimmer submersible?
>
>Carsten has some links to hydrofoils on subs, which I think is the
>way to do it for CG reasons but, tremendous power is required here.
>
>Joe
>
>
>>From: "Brent Hartwig" <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>
>>Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sea Phantom Sea Trials
>>Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:44:29 -0800
>>
>>
>>Well Michael,
>>
>>I can believe allot of things after seeing this Sea Phantom boat,
>>so try me.  As you know I love new adventurous designs, so bring it
>>on. I've put on my five point harness and hold my breath to keep
>>from passing out from the G forces put off from your design.
>>
>>Now I've done it.  I've gone to far and I scared ya away. ; )'
>>
>>Is it a supper cavitation sub?  Does it have a NOS button for me to
>>push? Is it made out of a carbon fiber/kelar cloth composite?  Come
>>on your killing me Mike.
>>
>>Waiting so patiently,                              Not
>>
>>I don't know what movie they got that shape from. I just got the
>>link from a guy on the Bionic Dolphin forum.  I put a bee in Docs
>>pants today to share with use lowly PSUBers some of his new pics of
>>the two seater VASH.  Until then this link will have to do.
>>
>>http://www.vulcaniasubmarine.com/DOLPHIN%20TWO.htm
>>
>>Patients is a virtue, only if necessary
>>
>>Brent
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>From: Michael Holt <mholt@ohiohills.com>
>>Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Sea Phantom Sea Trials
>>Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 10:12:59 -0500
>>
>>
>>Brent Hartwig wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>Ok boys and girls, if you have not had your coffee yet do not, I
>>repeat DO NOTE click on these links. Would this not be a sweet ride
>>if it was made into an ambient or 1 ATM submersible? Can you say
>>RETRACTABLE.
>>
>>http://www.seaphantom.com/images/trials/large/prototype_leaving_bay_side_view.jpg
>>
>>http://www.seaphantom.com/trials.htmlHoly ____!  That's beautiful.
>>From what movie did they take the exterior shape of the cabin?
>>
>>(You guys will NEVER believe what I had sketched out here over the
>>last year.  The main difference is that I'd preferred the two skiis
>>with stabilizer floats.  Oh, well.)
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