Jay,
From what I've seen and heard about Karl Stanley's C-BUG. he didn't even have electric population at all and would use the energy of the sub falling in the water when heavy from lost ballast air and on the return used the energy from the extra buoyant force from air added to the ballast tanks. He wouldn't sink straight down or come straight up but rather fly around covering a large area if he wanted to. My last email from him stated that the C-BUG is no longer in service and is on the bottom of the ocean making a new coral reef.
Now if your winged sub is neutrally buoyant and you want to go laterally, up, or down, your right in that It would have more drag then a cigar shaped sub. How ever my basic design model as is, has a much more streamlined shape then the C-BUG, as well as allot of other PSUB designs, so I'm not to worried about it. If I want or need to be towed by another boat then I'm sitting pretty compared to allot of designs. I want to be able to cover allot of area when on the surface and I want large surface area for the bikini clad babes to be able to suntan on. : )' The C-BUG was usually towed since it wasn't self propelled, and later on Karl added some nice bow additions to make towing easier, as well as a more streamlined shape underwater.
The Deep Flight submersible has much smaller wings and a long fuselage for less drag, but it doesn't have great surface stability from what I've seen. They claim to have a releasable inflatable bag system for greater buoyancy and easier surface egress. But I have not seen it used so I don't know how good it is. I'm willing to sacrifice some drag for greater surface freeboard and stability. It would be a prototype sub, so a number of things will have to be worked out. If it turns out not to be that good of a design functionally, then I will only make one and it will look really mean sitting in my living room with fish swimming inside looking outside at the humans. : )'
I appreciate hearing your thoughts, since it makes me stop and think through design ideas in such a way that I can avoid wasting time going down the wrong path or I can design around the problem area with some help from others here. Some times it's good to also refresh in my head why I thought some thing was a good idea in the first place. I want people to keep shooting at this sub design until it's bullet proof or it sinks.
Regards,
Brent
P.S. I'll keep your snow shoes on the wall, so if you ever change your mind about snow you can come get them.
From: "Jay K. Jeffries" <bottomgun@mindspring.com>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Ekranoplan Hydrobatic Trimaran Design Concept
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 06:42:54 -0500
************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages from our organization. If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the link below or send a blank email message to: removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an automated process and should be complete within five minutes of our server receiving your request. PSUBS.ORG PO Box 53 Weare, NH 03281 603-529-1100 ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************ ************************************************************************Brent,
There has been something nagging me concerning these winged designs and only now did I figure out what. While they look great, it is going to take a MASSIVE amount of energy to propel them underwater. At the speeds a Psub travels at, skin area is the predominate form of friction in the speed equation. The wings have a very large area so the power required for moving will be VERY large. Compressibility (the amount of water pushed out in front of a sub) becomes the predominate factor at higher speeds.
R/Jay
Respectfully,
Jay K. Jeffries
Andros Is., Bahamas
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hartwig
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 5:56 AM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Ekranoplan Hydrobatic Trimaran Design Concept
Andy,
Perhaps if the lower part of the wing can be raised to the level of the main rear wing I currently have, the entire wing system can be out of the water when on the surface. It could then be designed to work as a Submersible Ekranoplan Hydrobatic Trimaran. Can you say More Power, More Speed???
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Aquaglide_2.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6HQSNERadQ
I've been thinking about a submersible plane for some time now, and was working on a ducted fan RC model that would do just that. But a ekranoplan would be a good start in that direction. Then after that the next step on the wild side is a Supercavitating Submarine that can fly at mock 2 above or below the water.
http://www.deepangel.com/html/supercavitation.html
If I get this job in R & D with Aerocet Inc. then we could perhaps design and build a amphibious stepped pontoon system for the ekranoplan sub design.
http://www.aerocet.com/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=136
This is getting way to fun,
Brent
" The difference between genius and madness is a fine line called success."
From: Andy Jensen <drewacard@charter.net>
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
CC: Brent Hartwig <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrobatic Trimaran Submersible Design Concept
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:11:15 -0800
>Brent
>My line of thinking was that it would be a larger sub using this method for long distance traveling using minimum fuel. I was trying to figure out the folding wing issue also... nothing simple.
>Andy J.
>
>Date: Tuesday, February 6, 2007 8:11 AM
>From: Brent Hartwig <brenthartwig@hotmail.com>
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Hydrobatic Trimaran Submersible Design Concept
>Size: 8 KB
>
>Andy,
>
>Very interesting concept for a submersible. The lower wing will give you some drag when traveling on the surface but that's mostly if your wanting to go really fast. I'll plan to do a more complicated model of the trimaran sub that has retractable hydrofoils, for faster as well as smoother surface running. There would need to be a gas or diesel engine in that model. The larger size of that model will also require me to design foldable wings. I have three different mechanical ways to chose from so far, for folding the wings and wing tip soft or hard ballest tanks for trailerability.
>
>Regards,
>
>Brent
