This post by Jay was one of those memorable "turning points" where I stopped
for a moment...and really looked at what the most experienced guys on the
list were trying to tell me.
http://www.psubs.org/mlist/archive/0601/msg00054.html
Simplicity = safety in this particular game
Around this time I began to realize that my knowledge deficit...(safety
aside for a moment)...could literally cost me the loss of a small fortune.
Remember, this was following a post by Hugo Marrero (a HBOI JSL pilot) who
has since vanished from the list.
We should be appreciative of these contributions, they are particularly
relevant.
Joe
>From: "Stephen Pearce" <sjpearceqld@bigpond.com>
>Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Purpose of psubs.org?
>Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:16:18 +1000
>
>Rick
>
>RM: Before I address them, I'd like to re-state that THERE IS NO SUCH
>THING AS ADUMB QUESTION!!! NEWBIES TAKE NOTE!!! A psubs death does
>nothing for any of us and a question withheld is a potential death.
>
>SP: I completely agree!
>
>RM: The psubs "elite"? I've been around for a long time and have never
>seen the old farts shoo anyone away for whatever reason. As often as we
>see the same questions over and over I don't recall any of the
>experienced members being intolerant. Mind you, I don't read all the
>emails that come through, so I may in fact have missed the really
>elitist items.
>
>SP: If I had the time I could rake through the archive send you
>examples. There are many new members that were disparaged rather than
>encouraged. It might not happen all the time but it does happen. It's a
>select few members who behave this way but I can remember something like
>"what am I missing? Reply - basic hydrodynamics". THIS WOULD ENCOURAGE A
>NEWBEE TO PUT AN OPINION OUT THERE! I have forged friendships with
>engineers from this group that I value very highly. They have never
>displayed a condescending or rude attitude. So what is J K Jeffries
>excuse?
>
>RM: Archiving would be a plus but is a HUGE undertaking considering the
>material that's been discussed. But, I agree, lack of archiving does
>make it harder for newbies. It's been brought up before. Ray does this
>on a volunteer basis. He deserves huge credit and occasionally we even
>remember to thank him for his efforts.
>
>SP: As far as I am aware everything is on the Psubs website and I concur
>"Thank you Ray"!
>
>RM: As far as "Mr. J. K Jeffries" is concerned, I've just posted a reply
>to him [onlist] regarding the blowup surrounding Bill, who's a sincere
>contributor and actual owner of a psub. JK has, as his sign-off
>implies, always been a gentleman, professional and "respectful".
>Suggesting that he is "treated with contempt by many members off list"
>is a real gouge and could very well be interpreted as defamation.
>
>SP: This is where we part company.
>Jefferies wrote: (On the other hand, if a given individual does it often
>enough, you can either personally block mail from that person (but
>replies get through) or if the reprobate continues to cause issues, they
>are banned. This can be a loss for the whole list as the banned or
>blocked individual may have sometime to offer worthwhile that 1% of the
>time that they are not an irritating, festering sore. Their good gets
>lost in the deluge of aggravation that they case. It is a rare time
>that a blocking or banning is necessary as the offending individual
>usually gets the message that their particular ethos is not in the
>character of the ebb and flow of a particular list...peer pressure is
>great! Or they can get back on their lithium and once again can be a
>responsible member of the list.)
>
>"always been a gentleman, professional and "respectful". Bullshit! I
>would say this is defamatory and condescending and we all know he is
>talking about. He also mentions peer group pressure which he thinks he
>is in line with, if not setting the standard for. Who the bloody hell is
>Jefferies to say who gets banned from a list!!!
>
>If he want's to litigate over my statement, bring it on!!!! Truth is a
>defence in such matters and I have many emails where members describe
>him in less than glowing terms.
>
>On a personal note he has ridiculed me in the past on list when I was a
>newbie and he didn't even have the courtesy to refer to me in the first
>person.
>
>RM: Frappr: what's the purpose of it? As I'm the [currently neglectful]
>admin guy for the Frappr site, I'd be curious as to the view of others
>surrounding its inception. There was very enthusiastic participation
>from the group. Our excitement was due to the fact that we could see at
>a glance where psubs activity was occurring. It was a way of sharing,
>open to all. The Euro's, the Yank's, the Cajun's, the Down-under's, we
>all had something proud to contribute: namely, our home and, by
>implication, a regional contribution to the world of psubbing.
>
>SP: Completely agree and it attests to my point that Frappr provided
>something to its members that Psubs has not! Out of interest only one of
>the Fab Five as they are known joined. Further to that your Frappr
>efforts were appreciated by those involved.
>
>RM: The heavy duty subbers, and there are many, have always been
>supportive of newbies. Some of the list members do this for a living,
>JK being one of them. And, we are all aware of the consequences of
>alienating newbies by appearing elitist or insensitve: An acute case of
>death.
>
>SP: With the exception of the Fab Five's efforts on occasions, I would
>agree.
>
>RM: Regarding test emails: Historically, requests usually show up when
>the list is quiet, for example when 70 emails are exchanged offlist
>instead of onlist.
>
>SP: Agree completely! But that does not address why it happens.
>
>Rick I understand your natural desire to publicly show support for a
>friend you have warm fuzzies for but understand not everyone feels the
>same way. I don't care what he does for a living, It does not give him
>the right to think he can set a peer group agenda to an other members
>detriment regardless of who it is or the standing he perceives the
>individual he is targeting has with the rest of the members.
>
>I feel bit like I'm David taking on Goliath by calling Jefferies to
>account in view of his standing with people like your self. Values are
>only worth something if you are prepared to pay the price of having
>them. I think he is a social politician who thinks he is a big fish in a
>small pond. Jefferies is a bully and I am calling him for what he is. If
>this mean that I get placed on some members ignored list so be it!
>
>Regards
>
>Steve P
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Rick and
>Marcia
>Sent: Monday, 4 September 2006 4:38 PM
>To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Purpose of psubs.org?
>
>Hi, Stephen . . . there are a couple of things you've mentioned that
>took me
>by surprise.
>
>Before I address them, I'd like to re-state that THERE IS NO SUCH THING
>AS A
>DUMB QUESTION!!! NEWBIES TAKE NOTE!!! A psubs death does nothing for
>any
>of us and a question withheld is a potential death.
>
>The psubs "elite"? I've been around for a long time and have never seen
>the
>old farts shoo anyone away for whatever reason. As often as we see the
>same
>questions over and over I don't recall any of the experienced members
>being
>intolerant. Mind you, I don't read all the emails that come through, so
>I
>may in fact have missed the really elitist items.
>
>Archiving would be a plus but is a HUGE undertaking considering the
>material
>that's been discussed. But, I agree, lack of archiving does make it
>harder
>for newbies. It's been brought up before. Ray does this on a volunteer
>basis. He deserves huge credit and occasionally we even remember to
>thank
>him for his efforts.
>
>As far as "Mr. J. K Jeffries" is concerned, I've just posted a reply to
>him
>[onlist] regarding the blowup surrounding Bill, who's a sincere
>contributor
>and actual owner of a psub. JK has, as his sign-off implies, always
>been a
>gentleman, professional and "respectful". Suggesting that he is
>"treated
>with contempt by many members off list" is a real gouge and could very
>well
>be interpreted as defamation.
>
>Frappr: what's the purpose of it? As I'm the [currently neglectful]
>admin
>guy for the Frappr site, I'd be curious as to the view of others
>surrounding
>its inception.
>
>There was very enthusiastic participation from the group. Our
>excitement
>was due to the fact that we could see at a glance where psubs activity
>was
>occurring. It was a way of sharing, open to all. The Euro's, the
>Yank's,
>the Cajun's, the Down-under's, we all had something proud to contribute:
>namely, our home and, by implication, a regional contribution to the
>world
>of psubbing.
>
>The heavy duty subbers, and there are many, have always been supportive
>of
>newbies. Some of the list members do this for a living, JK being one of
>them. And, we are all aware of the consequences of alienating newbies
>by
>appearing elitist or insensitve: An acute case of death.
>
>Regarding test emails: Historically, requests usually show up when the
>list
>is quiet, for example when 70 emails are exchanged offlist instead of
>onlist.
>
>Rick Lucertini
>Vancouver, Canada
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Stephen Pearce" <sjpearceqld@bigpond.com>
>To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
>Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:51 PM
>Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Purpose of psubs.org?
>
>
> > Joe writes:
> >
> > "There have been times on this forum where I sense a reluctance and or
> > fear to participate"
> >
> > This is a view that is often expressed in conversations that take
>place
> > off list between members. Personally my ratio of 'off list' to 'list'
> > emails send to and received from members runs at about a ratio of
>close
> > to 70:1. This is also quite common amongst other members. How much in
> > the group as a whole poorer as a result of all this Sub related
> > information not being archived and referenced for later use.
> >
> > There does seem to be a Psub elite who tend to like to control, pass
> > judgment and impose their code of conduct, the last post from Mr J K
> > Jeffries (who may wish to take his own advice as he is treated with
> > contempt by many members off list) being an example.
> >
> > Maybe there should be a PSUB elite forum for those with that attitude.
> > Perhaps then the current forum would be more inclusive and inviting to
> > newish members and the Frappr group would have never been needed.
> >
> > If everyone really wants this group and our interest to grow a more
> > inclusive and tolerant attitude will have to be adopted by certain
> > individuals. If this happens we may stop getting test emails to see if
> > anyone is left alive!
> >
> > Steve P
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joseph
> > Perkel
> > Sent: Monday, 4 September 2006 10:54 AM
> > To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Purpose of psubs.org?
> >
> > Pierre,
> >
> > As you mention in your post, I believe sincerely in the dual purpose
> > of......
> > 1)"people sharing a dream".....and 2) technical discussions.
> >
> > Most people on various forums will never actually accomplish the
>stated
> > goals, whether that be aircraft, ROVS, Submersibles, Boats....or most
> > other
> > things of interest.
> >
> > The common thread of course is the subject of interest. Simply
> > discussing
> > the subject and sharing ideas and aspirations will by
>default...advance
> > the
> > cause of whatever it is.
> >
> > There have been times on this forum where I sense a reluctance and or
> > fear
> > to participate, and this can be attributed to misplaced or projected
> > anger /
> > frustration. The cause of which is unlikely to be "sub" related. Human
> > nature...life and it's realities seeping through.
> >
> > I myself was "set up" for a perceived failure not long ago and have
> > experienced a "snub" or two. The recent nastiness is the kind of thing
> > that
> > puts people off. But, I keep the above in perspective and keep on
> > trucking
> > along.
> >
> > Bottom line....I find much more positive than negative here and feel
>the
> >
> > majority is in agreement.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
> > >From: Marie-Andrée et Pierre <poulin.carrier@videotron.ca>
> > >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> > >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Purpose of psubs.org?
> > >Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 20:21:30 -0400
> > >
> > >Hi guys,
> > >
> > >Well, after reading some of the recent post. I was wandering... What
>is
> > the
> > >purposed of this group? Is it purely for technical discution about
>sub
> > or
> > >is it also a social group of people sharing a dream?
> > >
> > >I ask this, because it is evident that all of us don't think the same
> > about
> > >this question. And if you take some time to think about it. It might
>be
> > the
> > >base of the periodic problems we have on the group.
> > >
> > >It is clear to me that Bill think the group is also a social group
>and
> > that
> > >he wanted to share an invention he worked on for 10 years. Even if it
> > was
> > >not sub related.
> > >
> > >It is clear that others think the group is only for sub discution.
> > >
> > >I for myself think this group is both. I have made some friends in
>this
> >
> > >group since the couple of years I've been here. They supported me in
>my
> >
> > >project both technicaly and mentaly (so to speak) so today I am able
>to
> >
> > >look in my backyard and see one of my dream come true. If something
>bad
> >
> > >would happen to any of them it would affect me the same as if it
> > happened
> > >to a close friend. That goes beyong tech speak for me.
> > >
> > >We are 200 + people on this group. And it would be impossible to ask
> > that
> > >we all share the same view of the purpose of the group. But one thing
> > >should always be present: Respect. Because whatever we think, we all
> > >deserve to be respected.
> > >
> > >I had a problem once with one of the group. I wrote him an offlist
>mail
> >
> > >telling him why I decided to put him on my ignore list. I would
> > recommend
> > >you guys do the same. That way, nobody's feeling gets hurt.
> > >
> > >My 2 cents worth...
> > >
> > >Pierre "peace keeper" Poulin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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>The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
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