From: "Stephen Pearce" <sjpearceqld@bigpond.com>
Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Purpose of psubs.org?
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2006 19:16:18 +1000
Rick
RM: Before I address them, I'd like to re-state that THERE IS NO SUCH
THING AS ADUMB QUESTION!!! NEWBIES TAKE NOTE!!! A psubs death does
nothing for any of us and a question withheld is a potential death.
SP: I completely agree!
RM: The psubs "elite"? I've been around for a long time and have never
seen the old farts shoo anyone away for whatever reason. As often as we
see the same questions over and over I don't recall any of the
experienced members being intolerant. Mind you, I don't read all the
emails that come through, so I may in fact have missed the really
elitist items.
SP: If I had the time I could rake through the archive send you
examples. There are many new members that were disparaged rather than
encouraged. It might not happen all the time but it does happen. It?s a
select few members who behave this way but I can remember something like
"what am I missing? Reply - basic hydrodynamics". THIS WOULD ENCOURAGE A
NEWBEE TO PUT AN OPINION OUT THERE! I have forged friendships with
engineers from this group that I value very highly. They have never
displayed a condescending or rude attitude. So what is J K Jeffries
excuse?
RM: Archiving would be a plus but is a HUGE undertaking considering the
material that's been discussed. But, I agree, lack of archiving does
make it harder for newbies. It's been brought up before. Ray does this
on a volunteer basis. He deserves huge credit and occasionally we even
remember to thank him for his efforts.
SP: As far as I am aware everything is on the Psubs website and I concur
"Thank you Ray"!
RM: As far as "Mr. J. K Jeffries" is concerned, I've just posted a reply
to him [onlist] regarding the blowup surrounding Bill, who's a sincere
contributor and actual owner of a psub. JK has, as his sign-off
implies, always been a gentleman, professional and "respectful".
Suggesting that he is "treated with contempt by many members off list"
is a real gouge and could very well be interpreted as defamation.
SP: This is where we part company.
Jefferies wrote: (On the other hand, if a given individual does it often
enough, you can either personally block mail from that person (but
replies get through) or if the reprobate continues to cause issues, they
are banned. This can be a loss for the whole list as the banned or
blocked individual may have sometime to offer worthwhile that 1% of the
time that they are not an irritating, festering sore. Their good gets
lost in the deluge of aggravation that they case. It is a rare time
that a blocking or banning is necessary as the offending individual
usually gets the message that their particular ethos is not in the
character of the ebb and flow of a particular list...peer pressure is
great! Or they can get back on their lithium and once again can be a
responsible member of the list.)
"always been a gentleman, professional and "respectful". Bullshit! I
would say this is defamatory and condescending and we all know he is
talking about. He also mentions peer group pressure which he thinks he
is in line with, if not setting the standard for. Who the bloody hell is
Jefferies to say who gets banned from a list!!!
If he want's to litigate over my statement, bring it on!!!! Truth is a
defence in such matters and I have many emails where members describe
him in less than glowing terms.
On a personal note he has ridiculed me in the past on list when I was a
newbie and he didn't even have the courtesy to refer to me in the first
person.
RM: Frappr: what's the purpose of it? As I'm the [currently neglectful]
admin guy for the Frappr site, I'd be curious as to the view of others
surrounding its inception. There was very enthusiastic participation
from the group. Our excitement was due to the fact that we could see at
a glance where psubs activity was occurring. It was a way of sharing,
open to all. The Euro's, the Yank's, the Cajun's, the Down-under's, we
all had something proud to contribute: namely, our home and, by
implication, a regional contribution to the world of psubbing.
SP: Completely agree and it attests to my point that Frappr provided
something to its members that Psubs has not! Out of interest only one of
the Fab Five as they are known joined. Further to that your Frappr
efforts were appreciated by those involved.
RM: The heavy duty subbers, and there are many, have always been
supportive of newbies. Some of the list members do this for a living,
JK being one of them. And, we are all aware of the consequences of
alienating newbies by appearing elitist or insensitve: An acute case of
death.
SP: With the exception of the Fab Five's efforts on occasions, I would
agree.
RM: Regarding test emails: Historically, requests usually show up when
the list is quiet, for example when 70 emails are exchanged offlist
instead of onlist.
SP: Agree completely! But that does not address why it happens.
Rick I understand your natural desire to publicly show support for a
friend you have warm fuzzies for but understand not everyone feels the
same way. I don't care what he does for a living, It does not give him
the right to think he can set a peer group agenda to an other members
detriment regardless of who it is or the standing he perceives the
individual he is targeting has with the rest of the members.
I feel bit like I'm David taking on Goliath by calling Jefferies to
account in view of his standing with people like your self. Values are
only worth something if you are prepared to pay the price of having
them. I think he is a social politician who thinks he is a big fish in a
small pond. Jefferies is a bully and I am calling him for what he is. If
this mean that I get placed on some members ignored list so be it!
Regards
Steve P
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
[mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Rick and
Marcia
Sent: Monday, 4 September 2006 4:38 PM
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Purpose of psubs.org?
Hi, Stephen . . . there are a couple of things you've mentioned that
took me
by surprise.
Before I address them, I'd like to re-state that THERE IS NO SUCH THING
AS A
DUMB QUESTION!!! NEWBIES TAKE NOTE!!! A psubs death does nothing for
any
of us and a question withheld is a potential death.
The psubs "elite"? I've been around for a long time and have never seen
the
old farts shoo anyone away for whatever reason. As often as we see the
same
questions over and over I don't recall any of the experienced members
being
intolerant. Mind you, I don't read all the emails that come through, so
I
may in fact have missed the really elitist items.
Archiving would be a plus but is a HUGE undertaking considering the
material
that's been discussed. But, I agree, lack of archiving does make it
harder
for newbies. It's been brought up before. Ray does this on a volunteer
basis. He deserves huge credit and occasionally we even remember to
thank
him for his efforts.
As far as "Mr. J. K Jeffries" is concerned, I've just posted a reply to
him
[onlist] regarding the blowup surrounding Bill, who's a sincere
contributor
and actual owner of a psub. JK has, as his sign-off implies, always
been a
gentleman, professional and "respectful". Suggesting that he is
"treated
with contempt by many members off list" is a real gouge and could very
well
be interpreted as defamation.
Frappr: what's the purpose of it? As I'm the [currently neglectful]
admin
guy for the Frappr site, I'd be curious as to the view of others
surrounding
its inception.
There was very enthusiastic participation from the group. Our
excitement
was due to the fact that we could see at a glance where psubs activity
was
occurring. It was a way of sharing, open to all. The Euro's, the
Yank's,
the Cajun's, the Down-under's, we all had something proud to contribute:
namely, our home and, by implication, a regional contribution to the
world
of psubbing.
The heavy duty subbers, and there are many, have always been supportive
of
newbies. Some of the list members do this for a living, JK being one of
them. And, we are all aware of the consequences of alienating newbies
by
appearing elitist or insensitve: An acute case of death.
Regarding test emails: Historically, requests usually show up when the
list
is quiet, for example when 70 emails are exchanged offlist instead of
onlist.
Rick Lucertini
Vancouver, Canada
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Pearce" <sjpearceqld@bigpond.com>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 8:51 PM
Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Purpose of psubs.org?
> Joe writes:
>
> "There have been times on this forum where I sense a reluctance and or
> fear to participate"
>
> This is a view that is often expressed in conversations that take
place
> off list between members. Personally my ratio of 'off list' to 'list'
> emails send to and received from members runs at about a ratio of
close
> to 70:1. This is also quite common amongst other members. How much in
> the group as a whole poorer as a result of all this Sub related
> information not being archived and referenced for later use.
>
> There does seem to be a Psub elite who tend to like to control, pass
> judgment and impose their code of conduct, the last post from Mr J K
> Jeffries (who may wish to take his own advice as he is treated with
> contempt by many members off list) being an example.
>
> Maybe there should be a PSUB elite forum for those with that attitude.
> Perhaps then the current forum would be more inclusive and inviting to
> newish members and the Frappr group would have never been needed.
>
> If everyone really wants this group and our interest to grow a more
> inclusive and tolerant attitude will have to be adopted by certain
> individuals. If this happens we may stop getting test emails to see if
> anyone is left alive!
>
> Steve P
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> [mailto:owner-personal_submersibles@psubs.org] On Behalf Of Joseph
> Perkel
> Sent: Monday, 4 September 2006 10:54 AM
> To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> Subject: RE: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Purpose of psubs.org?
>
> Pierre,
>
> As you mention in your post, I believe sincerely in the dual purpose
> of......
> 1)"people sharing a dream".....and 2) technical discussions.
>
> Most people on various forums will never actually accomplish the
stated
> goals, whether that be aircraft, ROVS, Submersibles, Boats....or most
> other
> things of interest.
>
> The common thread of course is the subject of interest. Simply
> discussing
> the subject and sharing ideas and aspirations will by
default...advance
> the
> cause of whatever it is.
>
> There have been times on this forum where I sense a reluctance and or
> fear
> to participate, and this can be attributed to misplaced or projected
> anger /
> frustration. The cause of which is unlikely to be "sub" related. Human
> nature...life and it's realities seeping through.
>
> I myself was "set up" for a perceived failure not long ago and have
> experienced a "snub" or two. The recent nastiness is the kind of thing
> that
> puts people off. But, I keep the above in perspective and keep on
> trucking
> along.
>
> Bottom line....I find much more positive than negative here and feel
the
>
> majority is in agreement.
>
> Joe
>
>
> >From: Marie-Andrée et Pierre <poulin.carrier@videotron.ca>
> >Reply-To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Purpose of psubs.org?
> >Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2006 20:21:30 -0400
> >
> >Hi guys,
> >
> >Well, after reading some of the recent post. I was wandering... What
is
> the
> >purposed of this group? Is it purely for technical discution about
sub
> or
> >is it also a social group of people sharing a dream?
> >
> >I ask this, because it is evident that all of us don't think the same
> about
> >this question. And if you take some time to think about it. It might
be
> the
> >base of the periodic problems we have on the group.
> >
> >It is clear to me that Bill think the group is also a social group
and
> that
> >he wanted to share an invention he worked on for 10 years. Even if it
> was
> >not sub related.
> >
> >It is clear that others think the group is only for sub discution.
> >
> >I for myself think this group is both. I have made some friends in
this
>
> >group since the couple of years I've been here. They supported me in
my
>
> >project both technicaly and mentaly (so to speak) so today I am able
to
>
> >look in my backyard and see one of my dream come true. If something
bad
>
> >would happen to any of them it would affect me the same as if it
> happened
> >to a close friend. That goes beyong tech speak for me.
> >
> >We are 200 + people on this group. And it would be impossible to ask
> that
> >we all share the same view of the purpose of the group. But one thing
> >should always be present: Respect. Because whatever we think, we all
> >deserve to be respected.
> >
> >I had a problem once with one of the group. I wrote him an offlist
mail
>
> >telling him why I decided to put him on my ignore list. I would
> recommend
> >you guys do the same. That way, nobody's feeling gets hurt.
> >
> >My 2 cents worth...
> >
> >Pierre "peace keeper" Poulin
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>***********************************************************************
> *
>
>***********************************************************************
> *
>
>***********************************************************************
> *
> >The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
> >CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
> >because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive
messages
> >from our organization.
> >
> >If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
> >link below or send a blank email message to:
> > removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
> >
> >Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
> >automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
> >our server receiving your request.
> >
> >PSUBS.ORG
> >PO Box 311
> >Weare, NH 03281
> >603-529-1100
>
>***********************************************************************
> *
>
>***********************************************************************
> *
>
>***********************************************************************
> *
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
************************************************************************
>
************************************************************************
>
************************************************************************
> The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
> CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
> because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive
messages
> from our organization.
>
> If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
> link below or send a blank email message to:
> removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>
> Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
> automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
> our server receiving your request.
>
> PSUBS.ORG
> PO Box 311
> Weare, NH 03281
> 603-529-1100
>
************************************************************************
>
************************************************************************
>
************************************************************************
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
************************************************************************
>
************************************************************************
>
************************************************************************
> The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
> CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
> because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive
messages
> from our organization.
>
> If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
> link below or send a blank email message to:
> removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>
> Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
> automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
> our server receiving your request.
>
> PSUBS.ORG
> PO Box 311
> Weare, NH 03281
> 603-529-1100
>
************************************************************************
>
************************************************************************
>
************************************************************************
>
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
from our organization.
If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
link below or send a blank email message to:
removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
our server receiving your request.
PSUBS.ORG
PO Box 311
Weare, NH 03281
603-529-1100
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
The personal submersibles mailing list complies with the US Federal
CAN-SPAM Act of 2003. Your email address appears in our database
because either you, or someone you know, requested you receive messages
from our organization.
If you want to be removed from this mailing list simply click on the
link below or send a blank email message to:
removeme-personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Removal of your email address from this mailing list occurs by an
automated process and should be complete within five minutes of
our server receiving your request.
PSUBS.ORG
PO Box 311
Weare, NH 03281
603-529-1100
************************************************************************
************************************************************************
************************************************************************