[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Another nutcase here.



Bill,
 
   I appreciate you taking the time to tell me this stuff.  While I am not a SCUBA certified diver, I am familiar with some of it's concepts concerning pressure.
 
   These dive tables you speak of, are they available on line somewhere or are they specific to each diver or to certain locations ?
 
   Another question I have is, is the 10M per atmosphere thing apply to both fresh and salt water ?  My sub would be primarily for fresh water use.
 
Myles.
----- Original Message -----
From: Akins
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Another nutcase here.

Hi Myles.
 
If you build an ambient design there is simply nothing to do but deal with the air pressure. Otherwise you need a 1 atm design if your head hurts under pressure.
 
When your head hurt diving/swimming, did you know to pinch your nose shut and gently blow to equalize the pressure in your head cavities?
 
When your body is under pressure from either the outside water or the interior air it absorbs more nitrogen which stays in a liquid form as long as you
 
stay under that pressure. Your body can safely absorb a certain amount of nitrogen and be ok, but too much nitrogen (saturation) can make you feel high and is disorenting
 
and can cause you to make mistakes like you were drunk and even make you pass out and drown if diving. That comes from staying down too long and not watching
 
your diving tables. With dive tables you know how long you can stay down pressurized at a given depth. Then your body has an X amount of nitrogen absorbed into
 
it staying in fluid form in your bloodstream and tissues. If you surface too quickly after staying too long the nitrogen bubbles up from a descrease of pressure like a shaken
 
up soda and they bubble and expand in your blood and tissues and can cause slight discomfort, organ damage, even death. It is all dependant on how long you were down
 
and at what depth and how fast you came up.
 
If you follow your NO DECOMPRESSION diving tables and do not exceed your time for a safe scuba depth and then always do a 3 minute hang at 15 ft and then surface, you will be fine.
 
 
There are some who might say a jettisonable keel would be good in a 1 atm sub, but I don't think you will need it in an ambient for two reasons....
 
1. If you jettisoned your keel in an ambient sub I assume it would be an emergency and you probably have been down a while trying to figure out how to surface a broken sub.
 
    In that case you may have exceeded your dive tables depth and or time which means you may have some or a lot of nitrogen saturation. If you have done this you are now
 
    in a situation where you need to slowly offgas the nitrogen and the best thing to do is have oxygen bottles on board to help decrease more nitrogen getting into your system.
 
    Then you need to know saturation diving tables and get the sub up to a certain depth and keep it there for X amount of time. Depending on how deep you are and how long you
 
    were down, you may have to stop at several levels on the way up to decompress. Otherwise you will get the bends and have to be flown to a decompression chamber for treatmeant
 
    for decompression sickness if you survive. So rocketing an ambient sub that's hull along with your body is under pressure to the surface with the sudden decrease in
 
    pressure and resultant bends and decompression sickness can kill you or give you health problems for the rest of your life. One of my dive club members recently came up from
 
    230 feet in a tech dive in a cave in a sinkhole close to here. Her isolation valve was closed on her doubles rig and she was breathing  pure helium instead of with an oxygen mix.
 
    At 50 ft she was unconcious, at 30 ft she stopped breathing. Her dive partner got her up. She died three times and they brought her back. Had to drive her from the sink hole to
 
    a spot where the chopper could pick her up to med evac to the hospital. She is still in the critical ward with damaged heart, liver and other injuries with some possible brain damage.
 
    Her situation was not one of the bends but breathing the wrong mix, but it underscores the seriousness of what depth time and pressure can cause.
 
    I don't want to scare you but this is nothing to shrug off lightly. Do not rocket to the surface in an ambient after being down a while. You could do it if you were very shallow and had only
 
    been down a few minutes, but I still would not advise that even. It wouldn't matter in a 1 atm sub because the pressure is the same as topside so you COULD rocket a 1 atm without ill effects.
 
 
 
2. You do not need to have a jettisonable keel in an ambient by its very design. The ambient will have an opening in the floor or a trapdoor that you can simply jump right out into the water
 
    and since you are already at that same water pressure you can simply bail from the sub using a bail out tank and facemask and if you did not exceed your dive tables just do a three minute hang at
 
    15 feet (carry a depth gauge) and you will be fine. Carry a inflatable raft, buoy and line. When you bail out take the raft with you and release the buoy that is attached to the sub so it floats to the surface and
   
     marks the sub's spot for retrieval. If you DID exceed your dive tables, carry them in the sub with you and if you have the chance before you bail, look and see what your decomppression stage
 
     levels and times should be and then do your decompression hangs as best you can. Even a few minutes hanging and decompressing can make a big difference between no ill effects, slight ill
 
     effects....and death. So you see, there is no need for a jettisonable keel in an ambient design in the first place. You just lift the trapdoor (if there even is one) and bail out.
 
 
 
I didn't mean to scare you off of building an ambient my friend, I just wanted you to know the risks. If you do this, you need to definately become a certified diver. That will give you skill and an understanding
 
necessary for operating an ambient. It is as safe as you make it and operate it.  Dive tables, dive tables, dive tables. Did I mention dive tables?
 
Hope this helped you.
 
Bill.
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
----- Original Message -----
From: Myles Hall
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 2:18 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Another nutcase here.

Bill,
 
   Thanks for that.  So basically, you get the weight you need via the keel.  That makes sense.  Also safer too by having the keel jettisonable, up she pops like a cork, as long as you're not too deep and "bend" yourself I guess.
 
   I have been following the hull test threads very carefully.
 
   I don't like the idea of being exposed to the depth pressures, even if it's not very deep.  I seem to be particularly sensitive towards that.  I can't dive / swim very deep without my head wanting to explode (implode I suppose).
 
   Still thinking.....pondering....planning.
 
Myles.
----- Original Message -----
From: Akins
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Another nutcase here.

Hi Myles.
 
In overcoming the buoyancy of the hull you might make an ambient heavy by filling its keel with lead, bricks, concrete, maybe even sand, anything heavy for ballast.
 
I've seen pictures where fellows who were taking their sub out for its first test took a bunch of bricks along and if they weren't heavy enough, just started loading bricks
 
into the sub's bottom until they were heavy enough.  
 
To use the same weight as you said to make a pressure hull, you have to build interior hull reinforcement rings, have a thicker pressure hull and also worry about the
 
roundness of the pressure hull and how much pressure it will take. You have to worry about leaks and hull penetration fittings leaking. You have to do an unmanned
 
pressure test like we have been recently and presently been discussing in the group's postings.
 
The ambient design does away with all that by simply keeping the water out with air pressure.  Theoretically the ambient hull outer walls could be as
 
thin as a beer can since the pressure inside will be the same as the pressure outside. Of course you wouldn't want to make one that thin because it wouldn't be practical,
 
but it would be possible to do so. There are fellows here who build pressure hulls all the time, but it is much harder to build a pressure hull than an ambient one. Although
 
there have been wooden, fiberglass and epoxy pressure hulls made for 1 atm subs that didn't go very deep, they still are much harder to build than a ambient hull.
 
The main advantage of the ambient hull for scuba depths diving is that you can make it out of practicall any material and you can make it in almost any shape you want
 
and do not have to make it spherical as most pressure hulls are to maximize resistance against extreme external water pressure. The main detraction of an ambient design is that
 
your body will be under the same pressures as a scuba diver at whatever depth you dive to and have to adhere to dive tables just like a diver does so you don't get the bends. Also
 
as you submerge and increase the air pressure inside your sub to equalize the outside water pressure and keep it out, you have to pinch you nose and blow to equalize your sinus
 
cavities just like a diver does as he decends. Also you cannot exceed safe scuba diving depths so you cannot go nearly as deep as a 1 atm sub can go. But for shallow sub diving
 
not to exceed a maximun of 130 ft, an ambient design would be much cheaper and easier to build than a 1 atm sub.
 
Bill.
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Myles Hall
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Another nutcase here.

Rick,
 
   Love it !!
 
   I was giving thought to an ambient, since my dive depths aren't going to be very deep, but, I don't really understand how you can make them heavy enough to sink.  If you can, why not just use that weight to make a pressure hull instead ?  It's not totally clear to me.  I can get access to good quality pipe and weld so, I just thought it would be best to go 1 ATM.  (By the way, plywood here isn't cheap.).  Your concept of keeping the costs down has a ton of merrit though.
 
Myles.