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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive to Turn?



Hi, Cliff - a late response to your query (haven't checked my emails for a long while) but here goes: the short answer is yes, the submarine will generally roll into a dive.  You are absolutely correct.  Centripetal forces though?  The relationship of forces is mostly between hydrodynamics (water resistance) and moment arms (mass, applied energy and vectors). 
 
Now, a weasel word here: AMOUNT OF ROLL DEPENDS . . . on the hull shape (sideways slippage or sidle), the distance between the sail and the rudder (vertical difference along the Z-axis, a moment arm), distance between the sail and the rudder (longitudinally or along the X-axis, another moment arm), the differences in area between the rudder and the sail (a function of hydrodynamic resistance), how much keel ballast is aboard (mass and moment arm in roll), how low the ballast is installed relative to the sail (another Z-axis moment arm or centre of gravity), and the amount and duration of the forces applied by the propeller (surge forces) and rudder (yaw forces).  Whew!
 
(ref.: http://www.psubs.org/pic/moment.html   - the bottom diagram shows the degrees of movement)
 
Jeepers, is this helping or hindering . . .
 
I won't bore you with all the permutations.  Simply, if the sail is large (high surface area) and the rudder hard over, the boat will roll faster at high speed than it would if the forces applied were minimal (say at 1/2 a knot forward speed).  When the boat rolls, IT DOES CHANGE THE ANGLE OF THE RUDDER.  The rudder is still moving the boat sideways but in a different plane, just like an airplane.  The airplane does have slightly different forces acting on it mind you, but, most of the elements are there.  A submarine is more like a blimp than a plane in some respects.
 
When the rudder first moved it was vertical.  The stern slipped sideways in the water (like a speedboat's) but the SAIL IS BLOCKED BY WATER and can't move sideways.  Hull goes left, sail stays put.  This is like a huge hand pushing the sail over to the right.  Is the rudder still vertical?  Nope!  Now it's at an angle aiming the boat downwards.  It's easier to visualise if you have a model sub in your hand.
 
And, yes, apparently the Albacore did indeed have roll issues, mainly because of its high speed capabilities, large sail and tapered stern.  More forces.
 
Hope this overdue answer helps.
 
Warm regards,
Rick Lucertini
Vancouver, Canada
 
----- Original Message -----
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Dive to Turn?

Question: When a sub is turned sharply at speed, using only the rudder, will it dive as well?  It seems to me that some roll would be induced by centrifugal forces on the heavy part of the sub (lower part) which would cause the rudder to be in a non-vertical position and point the sub in a turning and diving attitude.  Would this be a problem at speeds of 4-6 knots and if so, is it correctable?  Thanks, as always,

Cliff