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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] THE CASE OF THE MISSING OXYGEN.

Hi Doug.
 
I'll take my shorts in a size 34 waist. Lol. I just posted the answer before I read you message. Here it is again.
 
Hi everyone.
 
I gave George Peroni of the hydrocap corp a call today (305) 696-2504 and told him of our discussions regarding vacuums forming in sealed battery pods using hydrocaps.
 
Here is what George told me... "On DISCHARGE the hydrocaps are non stochimetric and give off more hydrogen than oxygen and the hydrogen has to take ambient oxygen from
 
the pod to reform water". This creates the vacuum.
 
"Non stochimetric" mean't non equal according to George. He said on DISCHARGE this is ALWAYS NON equal and hydrogen ALWAYS outproduces oxygen on discharge.
 
George did say they would have to be discharging for awhile for this to occur and was susprised that anyone actually had a vacuum form but
 
that this would account for it.
 
Also he said..."On CHARGING, the hydrocaps give off more hydrogen than oxygen on the first part of the charge and on the final part of the charge the hydrocaps give off more oxygen than hydrogen".
 
He also told me I don't need a forced vent air system for use during recharging but that a simple open battery pod vent on charging would be adequate to release the pressure from the hydrogen formation during charging.
 
(I still might install one just for safety sake to blow the hydrogen out quicker rather than let it seep out, couldn't hurt.)
 
It had nothing to do with the oxygen bonding and becoming a lead oxide to account for the oxygen loss.
 
So now we know why the vacuum forms in a sealed battery pod using hydrocaps and understand just that much more about our systems.
 
I Told ya I would bulldog it out Stan. I'm finished with my bone now. Lol.
 
Kindest Regards,
Bill Akins.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] THE CASE OF THE MISSING OXYGEN.

Hello all
 
I don't have a clue about the chemical happenings, but the vacuum is primarily due to thermal expansion, and likely has little to do with the hydro caps.
 
Take an empty jar. Put a hunk of lead in it. (thermal mass AKA battery) Fill it with oil, or just leave it with air. Set it on the sunny deck of your boat.  Give it all time to warm up. (like you're charging a battery.)  Now put a lid on the jar and take it down to 250ft for an hour or so.  Bring it back up and open it  (so you can charge the battery again).  I'd bet my shorts (slightly stained) that you'll have a vacuum in the jar.  Even if you let it sit there for a while before opening it, the mass of the lead will help keep internal temperature down and the vacuum present.
 
If I am wrong, please make your case and the shorts are yours.
 
Doug Jackson (38" waist)
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/18/2005 11:11:43 AM Central Standard Time, lakins1@tampabay.rr.com writes:
Hi Carl.
 
I DO listen to Phil. What makes you think I don't? From reading Phil's website and seeing his credentials I would be crazy if I didn't.
 
You are a bit late responding to this message that came out two weeks ago. I think you missed the point. No one was saying Phil was not right about vacuums forming in a sealed battery pod when using hydrocaps. I certainly believe him.
 
We were simply trying to find out WHY that vacuum occurs. Besides if the 02 bonds and becomes p0 02 as Stan suspects, then it could not be vented as you suggest since it would be lead oxide. So I don't know what you were referring to there.
 
There were several more messages regarding this with Stan apologizing for being kurt and asking me to post if and when I found out where the 02 went from the hydrocap action.
 
Also I believe it DOES matter where the 02 goes from the hydrocap action. If we knew that we would understand WHY the vacuum forms. So for knowledge sake it DOES matter where it's going. Don't you want to know WHY things occur so
 
you may better understand your sub?
 
You missed the point here Carl. No one was trying to prove Phil wrong
 
WHERE WERE YOU TWO WEEKS AGO? Lol.
 
Kindest Regards,
Bill Akins.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: C.Kem
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] THE CASE OF THE MISSING OXYGEN.

I don't it really matters where it's going.  It's not recoverable and should be vented, O2 or H.  This has been debated for as long as I can remember and I forget how long I've been a member here.  Phil's right, regardless.  So until someone can prove him wrong, maybe it's about time we started listening to him.
Carl


Akins wrote:
Hi Stan.
 
I care Stan. To increase my knowledge. I'm sorry if I bored you with trying to find out where the (seperated from the hydrogen) oxygen went to, if it bonded, and why it is missing, so I won't mention
 
it again after today nor post here when I find out where the original oxygen went for my own edification so you won't think I'm obsessing. I think obsessing might be a necessary thing
 
on building a sub what with all the many small details and questions to overcome. If I wasn't obsessed I would probably have never started or given up on the project by now.
 
Kindest Regards,
Bill Akins.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] THE CASE OF THE MISSING OXYGEN.

Ok Bill, obsess all you want, but it's become a bore.  Get off it.  Focus on something meaningful.  I doubt anybody's wading through your verbage anymore.  Who cares?
 
In a message dated 2/4/2005 3:25:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lakins1@tampabay.rr.com writes:
Prelude....
 
Scotland yard was baffled and had not found out where the missing original oxygen had gone to in the totally sealed room.
 
Sherlock Bill was playing his minnkota violin and smoking his pipe while deeply in thought with his knitted brow showing the strain of days of pondering this one question.
For days now this one question had nagged at him as Dr. Stan Watson
had tried to help Sherlock Bill figure out where the orignal room oxygen had gone. Thus far they were not sure what had
happened to the oxygen in the room that Lady Rutherford had died in. The doors were sealed both air and water tight.
No one had entered the room and taken the original oxygen from the room. Dr Stan Watson thought that perhaps the
oxygen had been bonded to and absorbed by something in the room but that was just a guess and as yet he wasn't sure of that.
 
Odd bodkins! Where did the ORIGINAL oxygen get to? Could it possibly be that fiendish Dr. Moriarty had stolen the original oxygen somehow?
 
Zounds! The game's afoot!  
 
THE CASE OF: THE MISSING ORIGINAL OXYGEN SEPERATED FROM THE HYDROGEN IN THE BATTERY POD.
 
Hi Vance.
 
Yes, I understand and grasp exactly what  you said in your below posting.
 
I understand that if the original oxygen that seperated from the hydrogen is missing, then the ambient oxygen in your pod will take up the slack and combine with the hydrogen and form water and this
 
will reduce the ambient oxygen in your pod and therefore produce a vacuum.  
 
I totally understand that. 
 
But what I do not understand is WHERE DID THE ORIGINAL OXYGEN
 
THAT ORIGINALLY SEPERATED FROM THE HYDROGEN GO TO? WHY DOES THE AMBIENT OXYGEN IN THE POD HAVE TO REPLACE THE ORIGINAL
 
OXYGEN THAT SEPERATED FROM THE HYDROGEN IN THE FIRST PLACE UNLESS THAT ORIGINAL OXYGEN IS MISSING?
 
 
 
The 64 dollar question here for me is.....WHERE DID THE OXYGEN THAT ORIGINALLY SEPERATED FROM THE HYDROGEN GO, SO THAT OTHER AMBIENT
 
OXYGEN IN THE POD NOW HAS TO TAKE THE PLACE OF THAT ORIGINAL OXYGEN SO THAT WATER CAN BE REFORMED BY THE HYDROCAPS?
 
BECAUSE IF THE ORIGINAL SEPERATED OXYGEN WAS NOT MISSING AND WAS PRESENT AND REFORMED WITH THE ORIGINAL HYDROGEN THAT IT ORIGINALLY
 
SEPERATED FROM, THEN THERE WOULDN'T BE A LOSS OF VOLUME, SO THIS ORIGNAL SEPERATED OXYGEN MUST BE MISSING RIGHT?
 
 
Stan says he thinks the ORIGINAL oxygen that seperated from the hydrogen might be missing because it bonded with something and became an oxide or something.
 
Is this what has happened to the original oxygen that seperated from the hydrogen? If not, where did it go?
 
Stan has his suspicions that the originally seperated oxygen MIGHT have bonded with something to become an oxide or something, but thus far no one has definatively and specifically answered this yet.
 
Kindest Regards,
Bill Akins.