Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psubs-for-Dummies

[SFreihof@aol.com]

Hang in there Bill, you were right before...

The water and the acid are mixed... They do not form separate layers in the battery.  When I refer to the water in the battery, I am referring to dilute sulfuric acid.  Water mixes with the acid and dilutes it.

In an oil-filled lead acid battery, the oil floats on the dilute acid....

This is not a complex concept.  Take a balloon and fill it with air.  Take it 10 feet underwater.  The balloon will shrink because the water pressure compresses the air inside until the air pressure inside the balloon equals the water pressure outside.  Boyle's law, pressure and volume of a gas:  since the pressure is more, the volume is less.  Now take an identical balloon and fill it with water.  Submerge it 100 feet underwater and it doesn't get any smaller because the increased pressure doesn't compress the water.

Now, instead of a balloon, think of a battery box...filled with lead, acid, and oil, all non-compressible materials...

Stan

In a message dated 1/31/2005 1:27:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Akins" <lakins1@tampabay.rr.com> writes:

>Dear Jonathan.
>
>I am probably the last person who should be addressing your question since I thought (until the last couple of days that is)
>
>that totally submerging lead acid batteries in oil would damage them.
>
>But from what I've read from the advice of experts here, (and believe me it makes my head hurt too trying to wrap my brain around it and understand it all)
>
>It appears the water in the lead acid batteries actually floats on top of the acid and the acid is below the water level in the batteries. I didn't know that. I assumed the water and acid were mixed equally without
>
>there being a layer of one floating above the other. But (IF I AM INTERPRETING THE EXPERTS CORRECTLY), the water floats on top of the acid.
>
>At least I think that is what they said. And since oil will float on water
>
>I guess that means the oil will never contaminate the acid because the oil can't get thru the water to the acid because oil floats on water.
>
>Also from what I interpret it doesn't matter if the batteries are sealed or have caps and the oil may be poured
>
>directly into the remaining air space at the top of the cells which it would wind up in anyway because the oil would eventually seep in thru the small vents in the batteries and fill
>
>the remaining air space in the cells even if you did not pour it directly into the cell yourself to top it off. So (IF I am interpreting their advice correctly), the experts are saying that you not only
>
>can top off the cells in the batteries with oil, but the batteries are then surrounded by oil in a completely oil filled pod that will stop any water pressure from trying to get in
>
>as long as ALL the air is bled out of the batteries and pod by pressure bleeding the oil filled pod like a car's brake system. Then if I am understanding correctly, the hydrogen bubbles up thru the oil to the top of the battery pod
>
>and into a funnel shaped device that is connected to an overpressure valve of some sort and this hydrogen forming causes an increase in pressure in the pod that opens that overpressure valve at the top of the pod
>
>just long enough for the hydrogen to exhaust out whereby the pressure in the pod drops again and the valve closes. Did I get that correct gentlemen? Please tell me because I want to make sure I am correct and not giving bad advice.
>
>
>One thing I am curious about is if the hydrogen and oxygen seperate from the water in the battery, won't that mean there is a loss of water in the battery and therefore why would the hydrogen then create enough overpressure within the pod to
>
>cause an overpressure valve to open and exhaust the hydrogen out? Wouldn't the volume loss of water in the battery just be replaced by the hydrogen and oxygen and therefore the volume would be the same and there wouldn't be an overpressure
>
>created in the pod at all? I believe I am thinking wrong. Please someone tell me why?
>
>
>
>
>The vacuum created in the pod if you use hydrocaps or hydrolators that causes a catalytic conversion between the hydrogen and oxygen using platinum metals in the hydrocaps to promote the oxygen and hydrogen to recombine and make water again.still has me
>
>puzzled.
>
>At first I didn't believe there could be any loss of volume in the pod since I believed the H2 and O would totally recombine using the hydrocaps and therefore there could be no vacuum since there would be no loss. I doubted. I even ignorantly told an expert that he was
>
>wrong!!!
>
>From now on after telling an expert he was wrong before I fully understood the causes for this vacuum that I was talking about (I made the same mistake about the batteries submerged in oil!!) I am going to ask questions or sit back and read before I say something is
>
>incorrect that I do not totally understand and make a fool of myself like I have several times already! Lol. I have learned a valuable lesson and am humbly chastened.
>
>I believe the experts on this vacuum thing, I just don't understand what causes the vacuum. I have tried to think of what might cause it.
>
>Does it have something to do with water being composed of TWO atoms of hydrogen and ONE atom of oxygen? I don't know.
>
>Does it have something to do with when the oxygen and hydrogen are seperated some of the oxygen somehow gets bonded to something else and forms an oxide or something and therefore there is not enough oxygen from the original separation to recombine
>
>with the hydrogen, and therefore in order for the hydrocaps to recombine H2 and O into water, the H2 has to use O from the ambient air in the pod because the original oxygen it seperated from is now decreased and this creates the vacuum?
>
>Again I don't know. But I sure wish someone would please explain this in depth so we can understand exactly what causes the vacuum. Hint, hint. Lol.
>
>
>Now my head is hurting again and I haven't even gotten around to asking Phil what I should replace my scuba regulator equalization system with!  I believe Phil. But it sure was a letdown to hear that the simple scuba regulator system I had
>
>envisioned for my wetsub pod and motor pressure compensation was not going to be either totally safe or sufficient. Gotta get back to Phil on what other types of valves to use, what they are called, where I can get them, how to hook them up.....
>
>ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!
>
>Kindest Regards,
>Bill Akins.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Jonathan Wallace
>  To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>  Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:16 AM
>  Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Psubs-for-Dummies
>
>
>
>  PSUBS-for-DUMMIES time.
>
>  The whole "oil and battery" thing just ain't sinking into this skull
>  of mine.  Are we talking about regular old 12 volt lead-acid car
>  batteries?  If so, are they the kind with caps or the
>  "maintenance-free" type?  If they have caps, are we talking about
>  taking the caps off and putting oil inside the cells? Or are talking
>  about filling the pod that contains the batteries with oil, therefore
>  surrounding them with a protective non-compressible material?  Are
>  there ways to protect a "maintenance-free" battery?
>
>  What about off-gassing?  I understand that batteries do it, but how
>  does that create a vacuum in a containment pod?
>
>  ??? in NH
>
>
>  >On the oil-filled batteries: There is no mystery . period. They
>  >work fine. We've been using oil-filleds for 20 years on 'Deep Rover' -
>  >there is no emulsification ( as predicted by critics) the off gassing is
>  >easily handled by a soft top plus vent or just a clean venting
>  >non-return
>  >design.
>
>
>
>
>
>



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