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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] A safety improved, battery pod/motor, using air as a water pressure equalization system



Hi Brian.
 
Thank you very much for that info on Dan Lance's epoxy wire connectors Brian.
 
Do you have the link or know where I can read or see more info on it? That sure would be great. I see what you mean. If I sealed the ends of my wires going into the battery pod with epoxy except for the round connector that attaches, and if somehow my epoxy got a crack in it from stress, hydrogen could then ingress into the wire and go into the motor housing. Having that system you spoke of would preclude that and add an extra safety margin. Love to read more on this.
 
I must admit I know very little about gel or AGM batteries, so I can't help you there. My knowledge is limited to lead acid.
 
If you do use lead acid batteries you will not want to submerge the batteries completely in oil otherwise you will contaminate your cells with oil. Hence, you have to leave an air space at the top of the batteries and the outside water pressure will still
act against that small amount of air and try to ingress and or push in on the lighter material you spoke of using and possibly implode your pod. Plus you might not want to just leave a few inches of air over your lead acid batteries above the oil because then you might get splash from the oil that would wave over the top of your batteries and possibly contaminate them.
 
You might be able to use the oil method and completely submerge your batteries with other types of batteries that were not lead acid, but of these types of batteries as I said, I have no knowledge.
 
Some time ago I had an idea that if you used a battery that was non lead acid and totally sealed, why not just encase that battery and its wires completely in epoxy, and then it would not even need a pod.
 
Just strap the epoxy encased battery under the sub and then just run the wires coming out of the epoxy to the motor shaft and seal the junction where the wires went into the shaft. Sounds plausable to me but I don't know that much about batteries except for lead acid. Except I DO know all the other types are a lot more expensive than lead acid. In my epoxy encased battery idea I guess you would build in some kind of provision for wires coming out of
the epoxy to go to your charger and waterproof them. If someone could come up with a battery pack like this it sure would make things easier for us wouldn't it? An epoxy encased battery pack that contained no air. You could even use clear epoxy and actually see thru it to the batteries slung under your sub. No outside water pressure equalization would be necessary because their would be no air around the batteries with them being encased in epoxy. It would be heavy but this would be ok and act as a keel to keep you upright
and you could compensate with air bladders in the wetsub body.
 
But I have never heard of anyone manufacturing anything like this. Maybe someone out there will read this and manufacture them. Lol. We should be so lucky. 
 
Most of the posts I have read from various sites showed people using transformer oil in their motors for those who used the oil method of equalization. Some believe it or not use water with corrosion inhibitors in it to equalize the motor housing. 
 
But I have read nothing concerning using oil in the battery pods.
 
I personally think (with what I know at this time), that air equalization of the battery pod when using lead acid batteries is the way to go. I am by no means an expert, but it seems so simple to just use a pvc battery pod and air equalize it.
 
Well.....simple is subjective, lol, that's why I haven't completed mine yet. But I don't think I would completely submerge lead acid batteries in any kind of oil if I were you. And therein you still have an air space over them to deal with and equalize.
 
As I have recognized and others have mentioned, pvc is very strong and for normal scuba depths probably doesn't absolutely need equalization anyway. But I am going to equalize mine. I think it is better to not have the water pressure trying to get in past a small
juncture and pressure equalizing would basically keep any pressure off my battery pod which I think is good.
 
If I find that my battery pod needs more ballast to be either neutrally buoyant or just a little negative buoyant, (I want it a bit weighted to act as a keel to preclude upending)  then I will use scuba weights which will be lead pellet bags which will conform around the areas of the batteries in the pod. I could use sand but that would be kind of messy every time I wanted to pull the batteries out to inspect them.
 
Kindest Regards,
Bill Akins.
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Cox
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] A safety improved, battery pod/motor, using air as a water pressure equalization system

That sounds very thorough, but on the epoxying the end of the wires you might want to look at Dan Lance's Submersible Penetrators presentation at the 2004 convention.  It takes what you are doing a little bit further and adds a layer of safety precaution.  There is a connection incased in the epoxy that in case of it getting pulled out the wires simply separate leaving an epoxy seal at the transition. 
 
  By using gel batteries can the hydrogen gas problem be mitigated?  I was planning on using gel batteries or AGM.
 
I have been considering filling my whole battery compartment with oil.  As long as I make that space as minimal as possible the actual amount of oil used will not be very great.  Also the pod for the batteries does not have to withstand the ambient pressure so it can be made out of a lighter material and it does not have to be cylindrical.   I am planning on using mineral oil.  If the batteries need to be inspected or replaced then I would drain out the couple of gallons of mineral oil at that point.  Then refill the space with oil upon completion of battery change out.
 
Brian
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Akins
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] A safety improved, battery pod/motor, using air as a water pressure equalization system

 
----- Original Message -----
From: Akins
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 1:40 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] A safety improved, battery pod/motor, using air as a water pressure equalization system

 
Dear Vance and forum.
 
Perhaps I PERCEIVED Vance's post where it stated that I knew all the answers as him stating that I am a "know it all". Perhaps I was wrong and that was not really what he meant.
If I perceived an imagined wrong and spoke out of turn accordingly, then for that I apologize  to Vance and this forum for my misunderstanding. I guess I am so very careful to always strive to be polite to everyone
that when I perceive (wrongly or not) an insult to me, I do get a bit sensitive. I will try and work on that and strive to not be so thin skinned and sensitive in the future.
 
That being said, on to further design discussion.
 
After more thought on the matter and even though I still believe the hydrolator and hydrocaps (along with the pressure induced intake of air and outgo of exhaust of the battery pod/motor pressure equalization system itself) would be sufficient to preclude any hydrogen problems, I have decided to change one aspect of my design. By making this change it should increase the safety factor and eliminate any possibility of any motor sparking causing a hydrogen explosion no matter how remote that possibility may be.
 
This change would simply entail installing a "T" fitting on my scuba regulator replacing the mouthpiece so that the air from the regulator can go into two seperate hoses. Then INSTEAD of just pressure equalizing the battery pod and allowing the pod to extend that equalization to the motor via the flexible conduit going to the motor steering shaft, I would seperately pressure equalize the motor and battery pod. Here is exactly what I mean.
 
First install the tube onto the scuba regulator that will replace the mouthpiece. Then attach a "T" fitting to that tube unless I can find a "T" fitting that will attach directly to the regulator and in that case omit the tube and just install the "T" fitting directly to the scuba
regulator. Then from both ends of that "T" fitting attach air lines. One of which will go to the battery pod and the other that will go to the motor's hollow steering shaft. Then by sealing with bondo, silicone, or epoxy both ends of the conduit that carries the wires from the battery pod to the motor, I can isolate both systems, which will prevent any however slightly remote possibility of hydrogen from ingressing into the motor housing. But there is one more thing I would have to do as well to make SURE the conduit would not transmit hydrogen from the battery pod to the motor. Since air or hydrogen can actually seep thru the open ends of the insulation of the wires and between the strands of insulated wires themselves, I would have to do more than just seal both ends of the wire conduit.
 
That would not be enough because the air/hydrogen could just seep thru the wire's open ends and then thru the insulation even though the ends of the wire conduit would be sealed. So to insure total air tight integrity I will have to epoxy the wire ends themselves so that where the strands of wire in the battery pod exit the insulation, the epoxy covers and seals the strands and insulation leaving only the round connectors not epoxied at the ends of the wires. That way the conduit between battery pod and motor is now sealed at both ends with epoxy and the ends of each wire are also sealed against any air/hydrogen seeping thru the wires themselves.
 
Although it might not be necessary to do all this with the hydrolators and hydrocaps taking care of the hydrogen, it still seems a good idea and potentially safer way to go since with this method it insures (no matter how small the possibility) that hydrogen could not enter the motor and and possibly ignite due to motor sparks.
 
Both the battery pod and the motor will still be pressure compensated against the outside water pressure by the use of just one scuba regulator. Just with seperate air hoses.
 
I am going to constuct a tray that will hold my 4 batteries in the pod. This tray will slide out as a unit and allow access to the batteries by unscrewing my pvc pod endcap when needed to check the hydrocaps and hydrolators and also to check the acid and water level
within the batteries..
 
But to avoid disturbing the large O ring seal on the endcap every time I recharge, I will install a forced air system in the pod that wil allow me to vent hydrogen out of the pod when charging the batteries. I will only have to install one fitting because the other end of
 
this forced air system will be the open end of another tube that will contain the wires to go to the charger that I describe immediately below.
 
Also I will install a short pvc tube into the battery pod that will have a screw on waterproof cap with an O ring seal. This tube will contain the wire ends that I will attach my charger to so I will not have to remove the batteries every time to recharge them.
 
In addition to all this I will have absorbant diapers in the bottom of the battery pod just as a precaution to help soak up any small amounts of water in the bottom of the pod that may accumulate from the hydrolators dripping any water into the bottom of the pod.
 
And the final component will be a leak detector installed about one third of the way up the side of one of the batteries so it will not give me a false reading that it might if I installed in on the bottom where it might contact any wetness on the absorbant diapers
 
that might be caused by small amounts of water dripping from the action of the hydrolators.
 
After much research, personal thought and taking into account other helpful member's advice from both this forum and many other sites and forums, I believe this will be a safe and efficient system for a battery pod and air pressure equalization system.
 
Does anyone have any comments?.
 
Kindest Regards,
Bill Akins.