Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Scuttle Valve: Bad Idea

["adteleka@in-tch.com" <adteleka@in-tch.com>]

I've seen the movie.

Adam

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Bob Duncan katsurencho@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:48:13 -0800 (PST)
To: personal_submersibles@psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Scuttle Valve: Bad Idea


Did you see the movie about the CSS Hunley?
 
  Bob

Adam Lawrence <adteleka@in-tch.com> wrote:
Carsten, you can come up with a thousand scenarios that would justify
flooding your sub. I agree with you and your reasons for flooding your sub
in an emergency, like I said in my post on 3/9.

C and everyone,
There is a difference between military subs and personal subs, I would
classify Carsten's closer to a military sub (because of its size) and I
would classify p-subs closer to a typical 1-3 person research type sub.

For a personal sub what would have to happen for it to flood half full of
water? Lets say you break a port, Rich Slater had that happen and he just
opened the hatch and got out, he was very very lucky, the other guy wasn't
so lucky. Lets say you develop a slow leak, you would surface immediately.
Lets say you develop a fast leak, ok, that leak is just like a scuttle valve
and you either did something really stupid or you really made a
miscalculation in the design; either way you are committed to getting wet as
your sub goes to who knows what depth, hope you make it out!
Lets say your sub is stuck in mud at whatever depth. With a little psub you
can blow your ballast tanks (hopefully you made them big enough), drop the
lead and use your motor and your body weight to wiggle your little sub
loose.

In military subs they either get fired at and that sends the sub to the
bottom or they do something stupid, or its a bad design. If the bottom is in
your diving range you might have time to get out. What if the bottom is at
20,000 ft, implosion? Hopefully none of us will be getting fired on!

Lets say we do something stupid and plow our sub into an underwater cave or
into a lost fishing net. If we are way out in the ocean I doubt we will be
by ourselves or without a boat that has some cable, a diver and
communications. Lets say we are in the town fishing hole, no big boat but
you can probably get your dive friend to help you. Lets say no big boat, and
beyond scuba and your hatch is clear of any obsticles. Well again you either
did something really stupid with the sub or the design. But you are still
stuck and it is too late to think about sub2, you have to get out, hmmm. Ok
you dump all the weights, blow the tanks, dump the tail section, dump the
dive plane, wiggle yourself silly and still your stuck, hmmm. Ok I agree, a
psub should have a scuttle valve, but make sure to label it correctly like
"Idiot Valve" or something like that.

You could still find something to unscrew in the sub to start a leak, this
would take thought and time but it would make you try a lot of other things
before flooding the sub.

This is my thinking, and some of my reasoning for not needing a valve. Put a
valve in, doesn't matter one way or the other. I won't be putting one in
though.

Adam




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carsten Standfuss" 
To: 

Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Scuttle Valve: Bad Idea


> adteleka@in-tch.com schrieb:
> >
> > Why are you guys so hell bent on getting out of your sub. Like you said
> > Dan, if you have a diver that can come down to assist you why do you
> > automatically think he has to assist you out of the sub? The best thing
you
> > could ask for is an extra set of hands on the outside to untangle/cut
> > whatever. Unless you friction welded your sub to some underwater
structure,
> > you pbobably have some serious design problems to deal with, which does
not
> > include adding a         valve. Look at Kittredge's book where he talkes
> > about that guy who couldn't blow his tanks. Or when Capt. K
misscalculated
> > displacement. (Where is Vance Bradley he should chime in on this one)
The
> > sub I am most familliar with, in opperation today, has dived all over
the
> > world over the last 20 years and it does not have a scuttle valve. Did
the
> > designer forget to put one in, of course not, he knows its a bad idea.
This
> > is a classic Psubs example (Jon and Ray have a great site) of where the
> > thinking stops too short.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Adam
>
> Adam - what should a diver do with 60 ts sub - heavy dammged
> - maybe half flooded on the bottom ? And can he find the sub in time ?
> I know some really old german navy sailors - leaving
> there sub on the bottom of the Baltic or North Sea in 1944/45
> and some of them are still alive.. What is the problem with a flooded
> valve ?
> It is easy to build, easy to secure, cheap - and just a additional
> feature..
> Same with the drop weight - most military boats have no drop weight and
> survive over 20
> years without any problem. But for civil sub it is in the rules..
>
> Imagine you a trap in a sub - just in 60 feet of water - far out of
> course from
> you dive plan.. The      guys in the Largo M. in the mud trap "Tigerhai"
> - no way out.
> The divers search for the sub over a half year..
>
> regards Carsten


Fact is stranger than fiction. Truth is stronger than fact. R. Duncan

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