Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Scuttle valves & Divorce Court

[Steven Mills <cirtemoeg@juno.com>]

Indeed, I was trying to be even handed about this, but I will confess to
be misguided. Jon opened my eyes.
I thought Vulcania would be another good source of information,
but I got all the reliable resources I need here. There's not only
freedom of information here, but the freedom of expression. And we got
the whole web at our fingertips. Jon and Ray aren't dictators.
No place like home.

--Steve


On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 04:31:32 -0700 Coalbunny <coalbunny@vcn.com> writes:
> Thank you as well!  Very well said Jon!
> Carl
> 
> 
> Steven Mills wrote:
> 
> > Thank you !
> > 
> > --Steve
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 03:40:49 -0500 (EST) Jonathan Wallace 
> <jon@psubs.org>
> > writes:
> > 
> >>My fellow psubbers, I am sorry for the following note, however I 
> feel
> >>the following statement is necessary.  If you are only interested 
> in
> >>submersible talk, please delete this note now.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>An OPEN letter to Pat Regan and Gail Paleka
> >>
> >>
> >>>I don't understand what you mean by that.
> >>
> >>Gail,
> >>
> >>Suffice it to say it was a response based upon the numerous notes 
> on 
> >>Regan's
> >>web site between you and he, bad mouthing PSUBS.ORG and the people 
> 
> >>on this
> >>list.  In particular, your note to Regan stating "But I need an 
> >>outside
> >>opinion from an experienced submariner, and you fit that 
> >>description.  Will
> >>you help me, please?"  Hence, my question, "Have you cleared this 
> >>with Pat
> >>Regan?"
> >>
> >>I gave you the benefit of the doubt the last couple of days, but 
> no 
> >>longer.
> >>After visiting Regan's web site it is clear to me that your intent 
> 
> >>is not to
> >>offer constructive criticism, but to bad mouth PSUBS.ORG for 
> reasons 
> >>known
> >>only to you.  Regan's remarks on his web site regarding PSUBS.ORG 
> >>can be
> >>summed up in two words...ENVY and JEALOUSY.
> >>
> >>Before Regan deletes things on his website, let's do a comparison 
> so 
> >>it's
> >>locked in perpetuity on this website.  We'll leave it to readers 
> to  
> >>     
> >>determine for themselves whether some of the criticisms you have 
> >>made are
> >>true.
> >>
> >>1) PSUBS.ORG was created to further the discussion of personal 
> >>submersibles.
> >>Vulcaniasubmarine.com was created to sell a book, entitled "How to 
> 
> >>build
> >>a mini-submarine" or "How to build your own submarine" depending 
> >>upon where
> >>you look on the website.
> >>
> >>2) PSUBS.ORG values open discussion of designs and construction 
> >>techniques.
> >>On vulcaniasubmarine.com you can ONLY get advice from Pat Regan.  
> >>Refer
> >>to note "Sub Sketches Posted for Your Critique" and the response 
> >>from Pat
> >>Regan "The only guy who is authorized to post technical advice on 
> >>this
> >>message board is me."
> >>
> >>Furthermore, on vulcanismsubmarine.com you are advised "If you 
> >>really
> >>want to open your design up to a free-for-all, you can take it to 
> >>other
> >>websites, but as Gail has pointed out, much of the information you 
> 
> >>will
> >>receive there may be questionable. Be careful."
> >>
> >>Gail's qualifications for classifying submersible information she 
> >>finds
> >>on the web as "good" or "bad" can be found under topic "Please 
> >>help!",
> >>where she describes herself as a 20 year old female student, with 
> a
> >>part time job in a dive shop, and has helped "the guys at the shop 
> 
> >>work
> >>on Scuba-Tows".  
> >>
> >>3) PSUBS.ORG offers technical discussion 24/7.  On 
> >>vulcaniasubmarine.com
> >>technical discussions occur when Pat Regan has time for them.  
> Refer 
> >>to
> >>note "Tech Talk suspended" which states "Starting March 01, 2004 
> and
> >>until further notice, I will no longer be answering technical 
> >>questions
> >>about homebuilt submarines."  You will recall that under item 2 
> >>above,
> >>ONLY Pat Regan can provide technical talk.
> >>
> >>4) PSUBS.ORG is an open forum where ideas are passed between 
> >>interested
> >>parties who want to develop a dialog.  Vulcaniasubmarine.com is 
> not 
> >>an
> >>open forum as evidenced by the topic "PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING 
> >>HERE"
> >>in which Regan states "This is not an open forum: it is a place 
> >>where I
> >>pass information on to others, and that's all it is."
> >>
> >>
> >>Regan to Paleka, taken from the vulcaniasubmarine website:
> >>"A fundamental aspect of discussion groups is that they are mostly 
> 
> >>about
> >>socializing, and people go there to have a good time. Considering 
> >>your
> >>background, I think you went there looking for something PSUBS is 
> >>not."
> >>
> >>Wallace response:
> >>A 100% technical only web site is BORING.  Humans are social by
> >>definition and have a desire to form friendships with others that 
> >>share
> >>the same interests.  Through those friendships, faithful bonds are
> >>created that lead to desimination of even more information.  
> >>PSUBS.ORG
> >>has more technical information on it today than vulcaniasubmarine 
> >>will
> >>have on it five years from now.  PSUBS.ORG is successful because 
> of 
> >>the
> >>DIVERSE information it obtains from a DIVERSE group of people, 
> some 
> >>who
> >>share and move on, others who share and stay long term.  
> Regardless 
> >>of
> >>the time they spend with us, they share and we benefit.
> >>Vulcaniasubmarine is a web site obsessed with a Disney movie.
> >>Seventy-five percent of the content is either about 20,000 leagues 
> 
> >>under
> >>the sea or a link to a another web site about 20,000 leagues under 
> 
> >>the
> >>sea.  Twenty percent of the web site are links to other 
> submersible
> >>web sites.  Vulcania has seven, PSUBS.ORG has nearly 200!  The 
> >>remaining
> >>5 percent of vulcaniasubmarine.com that is supposedly "content", 
> >>lacks
> >>any appreciable "content" at all.  This "technological" section of 
> 
> >>the
> >>website includes what appear to be pictures from a 1970's 
> rebreather
> >>"project" made from clorox bottles, and a pictorial history of 
> >>building
> >>a minisub based upon the Nautilus.  No details, no construction
> >>information, and no dive logs are provided.  Pictures of "test 
> >>trials"
> >>are provided, but no information on actual diving operations. 
> >>
> >>To both Pat Regan and Gail Paleka:
> >>Your criticism upon the participants that frequent PSUBS.ORG are
> >>unjustified and unsubstantiated given even a cursory review of 
> what 
> >>either
> >>of you have, or can, provide to those seeking solid, accountable 
> >>technical
> >>advice on how to build a personal submersible.  Your criticism is 
> >>based
> >>upon envy, jealousy, and a heavy egotistical attitude; not upon 
> >>superior
> >>knowledge or capability of those who contribute to PSUBS.  You'll 
> >>have to
> >>forgive me if I don't recognize the value of PSUBS being 
> criticized 
> >>by a
> >>20 year old dive shop employee who's primary experience with 
> >>submarines
> >>has been helping "the guys at the shop work on Scuba-Tows".  A 
> >>cursory
> >>look at the PSUBS picture gallery or the MOKI picture exchange 
> shows 
> >>the
> >>level of experience that this young lady is attempting to lecture.
> >>
> >>
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> -- 
> "By the side of religion, by the side of science, by the side of 
> poetry, 
> stands natural beauty.  Not as a rival to these, but as the common 
> inspirer and nourisher of them all." -- G. M. Trevelyan
> 
> 


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