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Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUB OSS Modular design.
Line pipe is not usually round exactly, but it is reasonably close, (I will
check some samples I have access to.) but I think that even rolled plate
(which is all line pipe is) wouldn't be that close in 36" pipe sizes
(0.125" = 3 mm) but maybe it is.
For the conning tower I was envisioning a forged tee that you weld
in, not cutting a hole in the pipe.
Yes the WT would have to be much thicker to compensate for the
compressive vs tensile loading. I was thinking the hull should be in the
range of 0.500" [12.7 mm] anyway (I haven't cal'c anything yet) not from a
pure math point of view but to compensate for the possibility of bumping
into something , denting the hull, etc.
"Dan H."
<JMachine@adelphia.net> To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent by: cc:
owner-personal_submersible Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUB OSS Modular design.
s@psubs.org
15/01/2003 05:31 PM
Please respond to
personal_submersibles
Jay,
I don't know and just asking, but is standard pipe true round enough? A
.25
inch hull thickness needs to be true round to within .125 inch on the hull
diameter. Remember, a sub hull is in compression, not tension like a
typical
pipe application.
Also, adding in a conning tower is more then just using a T. The hole you
cut in the hull for the conning tower would have been carrying a
compressive load. The forces are still there and have to be carried by
added reinforcement. Typically an extra heavy fabricated collar.
Dan H.
----- Original Message -----
From: <jbarlow@bjservices.ca>
To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 3:12 PM
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PSUB OSS Modular design.
>
> http://www.howell.ca/howhome.htm
>
> http://www.cefranklin.com/indexserv4.html
>
>
> http://www.texmet.com/
>
> http://www.what-flange.demon.co.uk/customflanges.htm
>
> http://www.texasflange.com/catalog.pdf
>
>
> Warren: External flanges come pre machined ready to weld to pipe. Bolt
> corrosion is no more of a problem than the hull corrosion, so it
shouldn't
> matter where the bolts are. Paint after assembly. Before outer skin
> (shell) is attached to reduce drag. Also I wouldn't think one would
want
> to take it apart very often. I still think inside is nicer, but outside
is
> far cheaper and easier.
>
> Dale: Also Line pipe is pressure tested at mill (Every section), and
> shorts (ie less than 40' long pieces) can be had surplus at very much
> reduced cost. If often comes with factory applied coating against
> corrosion, so only joints would need to be coated (paint??) The coating
is
> usually very good.
>
> I can't find links to larger flanges just now on web, but I known they
are
> available. 36" , 42", 48", & 56" are common. 36" is very common. Other
> sizes are less common but still available. In fact if someone found a
> piece of 38" Line pipe it might be very cheap, but then the fittings,
> flanges etc, would be expensive.
>
> On a tangent, If you wanted a conning tower, you could weld tee in the
> centre, giving a nice round place to put a hatch, and a strong well known
> transition.
>
> I myself like the idea of a nice streamlined external shape of fibreglass
> or some such that could be a ballast tank. Bolted onto the top and
bottom
> along the sides. I may try a jpg tonite if I have time.
>
> Jay.
>
>
>
> What we would want is those flanges in the machined state
> before they are attached to anything, so we could weld them
> to the inside of the pressure hull. They really need to be
> on the inside, so it will be easier to assemble/disassemble,
> reduce drag, and prevent corrosion of the bolts.
>
> Warren.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Dale A. Raby"
> <publisher@thegreenbayweb. To:
"PSUBS.org mailing list" <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> com> cc:
> Sent by: Subject: Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] OSS spec sheet
> owner-personal_submersible
> s@psubs.org
>
>
> 15/01/2003 12:37 PM
> Please respond to
> personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
>
> For what it's worth... I like the modular concept idea... and I like the
> external flange idea. It would be much easier to unbolt something from
the
> outside... easier to bolt together too as a matter of fact. Also, high
> pressure pipe must be available commercially... a further cost
reduction...
> and commercial flanges must be available in the sizes that pipes come in.
>
> The advantages of the internal flange are more than offset by the sheer
> pain in the nether regions required by crawling into a 1.5 meter cylinder
> and working around interior contents. Ever try to change the spark plugs
> in some of these modern automobiles? I got enough busted knuckles, thank
> you very much.
>
> The flanges could be "guppied" later on with something as simple as a
> fastened on "skin" or shroud that wouldn't even need to be pressurized.
>
> On Wed, 2003-01-15 at 13:00, jbarlow@bjservices.ca wrote:
> Exactly what I meant.!! If the hull is encased with ballast tank,
to
> streamline the shape (like German VII for example) then one could
> purchase
> a pipe flange (bolts on the outside) rather than making one. An
> external
> stiffener is just as valid as an internal one. But it would be
more
> difficult to take apart (due to the ballast tank in the way). Also
> more
> difficult to inspect the bolts. However it would be far cheaper.
I
> am
> trying to find links. The inside bolts is far nicer, but
impossible
> to
> find commercialy (I think anyway) , due to the fact that people
> rarely want
> to un-bolt pressure vessels from inside. In fact rare;y do they
want
> to
> climb inside one. LOL. Pipe Flanges would be far cheaper than
making
> one.
>
> For the diameter debate, I vote in for 36" - 48" line pipe for
> pressure
> hull. I want to be able to sit upright, but also able to pull with
> my
> truck. Maybe the batteries would be a seperate load to keep the
> weight down
> and add batteries at launch site. Safety drop weight as well??
>
> Comments?
>
> Jay.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> MerlinSub@t-online.de
>
> (Carsten Standfuss) To:
> personal_submersibles@psubs.org
>
> Sent by: cc:
>
> owner-personal_submersible Subject:
Re:
> [PSUBS-MAILIST] OSS spec sheet
>
> s@psubs.org
>
>
>
> 15/01/2003 11:25 AM
>
> Please respond to
>
> personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Warrend
>
> A cylinder with a diameter of 1 meter and with a length of 1 meter
> means
> a displacement of 0,805 ts in saltwater..
>
> A diameter of 2 meter with a length of 1 meter means
> a displacement of 3,22 ts in saltwater..
> Each person needs about 1 meter length - so a double seater needs
> 2 meters between the endcaps.. = 6,44 ts the overall sub will be
> more in the area of 8-9 ts.. keep most homebuilders off..
>
> I think 0,9 - 1 meter diameter - or the weight will be a
> problem for the most cars and even pickups.
>
> I put a picture of a bolted frame and a explain
> how to make it to :
>
> http://www.prismnet.com/~moki/subfiles
>
> or direct:
> http://www.prismnet.com/~moki/20030115.120916/113-1333a.JPG
> and here :
> http://www.prismnet.com/~moki/20030115.120916/113-1333a.desc
>
> Bolted midgets:
> Seahorse, all X-crafts, Aluminaut, all japanese midget, Seehund,
> some italian modern midget - technical no problem, just a price
> issue..
>
> regards Carsten
>
>
> Warrend Greenway schrieb:
> >
> > The issue of beam seems to be causing a lot of concern. I want to
> > be able to sit upright in the hull. I'm not interested in
crouching
> > or being balled-up in any way. Furthermore, 1.5-2.5 meters was
the
> > unanimous response. It would seem, however, that there are a lot
of
> > second thoughts on this. I am going to try laying out some stuff
in
> > my living room to get a better idea of scale. I think this is the
> > first order of buisiness at this time. Please, all, make a mock
up
> > with sticks, cardboard, or whatever, and get a solid
understanding
> of
> > a realistic size. It is starting to sound like the 1.5 meters may
> have
> > been closer to the target. Remember, though, that the modularity
> will
> > allow the basic sub to be quite short, eliminating some
cost/weight
> > concerns.
> >
> > Warren.
> >
> > >
> > > Any special tools that we need should be factored in
> > > to the overall cost. This would include the method of
> > > transporting it to and from the dive site. If 'we' are
> > > planning to build a submarine of the size people are talking
> > > about then you will probably need either a crane or strong
> > > forklift truck for lifting parts and section into place.
> > >
> > > Although, it might be more econimical to get a vehicle
> > > such as a flat bed truck with a built on crane:
> > >
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6729&item
=
2400013033
>
>
> > >
> > > The specs being kicked around sounds more like the size of
> > > a 4 to 6+ person sub, with room to stand up. I've got
> > > say I would love to have a sub like that, but I'm not
> > > sure how relistic it is to solve all the logistical problems
> > > for constructing such a vessel by a private individual.
> > > In fact I think hardly any one would beable to finance
> > > and construct such a vessel, more so since this is intended
> > > as a 'first submarine'. 1 meter is a more realistic hull
> > > diameter... your second sub could be 2 meters....
> > >
> > > Ian.
> > >
> > > On Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:08:05 +0800
> > > "Warrend Greenway" <dub@linuxmail.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > If this bolt together systems works out then Carsten's idea
of
> > > > uneven lengths becomes perfect. We would have around a 4
meter
> > > > "main" section with the conning tower. Then you could either
> bolt
> > > > on end-cap sections or extensions to the hull, either way you
> get
> > > > exactly the length you want. It would be nice if towing
behind
> an
> > > > SUV wasn't a concern, but it is. I would get a Dodge and have
> > > > 10,000lbs towing capacity, but that is not going to be a
> popular
> > > > solution. "By a real truck for your PSUB!" Right.
> > > >
> > > > Warren.
> > > >
> > > > > The wish list looks like it's coming along well. I like
the
> "Required "
> > > > > list especially, but I think the size is getting a little
> large for
> > > > > something that will actually get built?
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe one of the first things that should be considered is,
> are we
> looking
> > > > > to design a sub that can be trailered behind a standard
sized
> SUV
> or pickup
> > > > > truck, or one that requires more to move it. Establish the
> displacement
> > > > > constraints rather then the details.
> > > > >
> > > > > Establishing a realistic budget may do well early on too.
> It's
> probably the
> > > > > main reason there aren't a flood of Psubs in the water
> already.
> > > > > Keep in mind, every square center meter of volume adds to
> both cost
> and
> > > > > weight.
> > > > >
> > > > > My hat is off to Carstan for the project he has taken on,
but
> reality is, I
> > > > > know he's way out of my league.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan H.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Coalbunny" <coalbunny@vcn.com>
> > > > > To: <personal_submersibles@psubs.org>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 7:40 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OSS spec sheet
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know what value this would be to the PSUB
project,
> but
> this is
> > > > > > what I have so far-
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Length: "Around" 10 meters
> > > > > > 2. Beam: 2-2.5 meters
> > > > > > 3. Speed: unknown
> > > > > > 4. Depth: 50 meters
> > > > > > 5. Duration: 24 hours
> > > > > > 6. Cost: unknown
> > > > > > 7. Capacity: 3-4 passengers
> > > > > > 8. Other: Optional electronics package
> > > > > > Life support system
> > > > > > Optional bow view port
> > > > > > Optional fiberglass fairings
> > > > > > Required analog/mechanical gauges
> > > > > > Required auxillary electrical
> > > > > > Required steel pressure hull
> > > > > > Required drop ballast
> > > > > > Required "trimable" ballast
> > > > > > Required PWM speed control(?)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not really certain what the specs would be for speed.
> > > > > > Carl
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > "You delight not in a city's seven or seventy wonders,
but
> in an
> answer
> > > > > > it gives to a question of yours, or the question it asks
> you,
> forcing
> > > > > > you to answer, like Thebes through the mouth of the
> Sphinx." --
> Kublai
> > > > > > Khan
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > ______________________________________________
> > > > http://www.linuxmail.org/
> > > > Now with POP3/IMAP access for only US$19.95/yr
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> >
> > --
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> >
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>
>
>
> (Embedded image moved to file: pic15561.gif)
> Dale A. Raby
> Editor/Publisher
> The Green Bay Web
> http://www.thegreenbayweb.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>