Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Questions, questions and more questions

[MerlinSub@t-online.de (Carsten Standfuß)]

Okay, some more answers, CSSX has to wait some days..

TeslaTony@aol.com schrieb:
> 
> In a message dated 9/18/00 12:24:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> MerlinSub@t-online.de writes:
> 
> (SNIP)
> >  You need at least 0,25 Liter/minute O2 each person
> >  Acorrding to the rules (GL 1988 Chapter 2 submersibles)
> >  - in two undependable storage groups

 
> Do you mean "independant"?

Yes.. (and on this way, thank you Stan..)

> 
> >  - best storage place is outside the hull
> >
> >  - minimum running time for one-man subs should be 72 hours
> >  - minimum run time for small subs should be 96 hours
> >  - minimum run time for autonomus subs should be 168 hours
> 
> Yikes, that is a lot of run time, is it really necessary to have 3 or 4 days
> of O2?
> 

No is not. But I am an engineer, and if you ask one of them anywere in
the world 
- he will/must/have to calculate a saftey factor. 

2 years before I designed a small crane for a treasure salavage vessel
for a friend to hold the side-scan sonar and to lift some smaller
treasure. 
I told him : Its designed for a load of 0,8 ts and will have a destroy
load
of about 3,2 ts. Next question of him was : Can I use it to lift 1,6 ts
? 

CSSX is designed for a dive deep of 250 m ( 820 feet), the test deep
will be 310 m ( 1020 feet) and the destroy deep is around 500 m (1640
feet).
Some guys ask me : Will you dive 400 m (1310 feet)? 
My answers are : The load of the crane is 0,8 ts and CSSX will dive one 
time each year to 310 m - not more. 

Civil submarines accidents shows two bigger problems : 
1.) Fire or smoke in the cabin
2.) Catching a net, cable, rope or wreck. 

For problem 1.) a fire-extingusher, a battery main switch and a scuba
gear will help.
For problem 2.) Help comes from outside ... after two days. 

If you can - buy the book "No time of our side", or maybe Vance or Stan
will lend her
copys for some days. 

> (SNIP)
> >  Without O2 support the air inside you hull will fit you about 20-60
> >  Minutes
> >  depents on the size of your pressure hull.
> >  You can test this time on your finished pressure hull very easily if
> >  close the hutch with you inside (which should be possible to open from
> >  the outside)
> >  and somebody outside.
> >
> >  Starting the clock and wait - if the headeages get to high you have CO2
> >  poision
> >  and this last air reserve is over. If you fall in coma your
> >  wife/friend/girl
> >  should open the hutch.. Time in Sgt.Peppers was 40 Minutes..
> 
> Did you actually lock yourself inside until you passed out?!

I get hard headeages after 40 minutes and open the front dome self from
inside. 
The headeages shows the starting CO2 poison - the O2 in the atmosphere
reach longer.. 

For this reason the CO2 scrubber on Psubs should work longer than the O2
reach 
- you will died more friendly without headeages - just slepping a little
longer..

> 
> >  >
> >  > 2. Where is a good place to put the motors, inside the main hull or
> > outside
> >  > in a secondary hull?
> >
> >  Depends on the design. Sgt.Peppers for example has all 5 motors outside
> >  for
> >  some reasons. I want a sub with a small displacement - so I want a small
> >  pressure hull. CSSX for example will be the main engines and most
> >  equipment
> >  inside because of maintance the motors with the sub in the water.
> >  In General : Thrusters outside, non-electric main engines like diesels
> >  inside. In smaller boats with only a electric main-engines maybe
> >  outside.
> >
> >  >
> >  > 3. Does anyone know anything about using jets from a jetski to propel
> the
> > sub
> >  > or is this totally new territory?
> >
> >  The efficency of a jetski drive is lower than a propeller drive at low
> >  speed.
> (SNIP)
> 
> I've heard that waterjets get more efficient the faster they go, but are they
> as efficient as a standard propeller at say.....2 knots?

I don't know - but I think possible bad..
Karl and I played a wile with a Orca-wale-shape sub design with a
waterjet
main drive. But this sub was designed to win speed races with the
Orcas..

> 
> (SNIP)
> >  I use two arcarde- joysticks in one box to control all four thrusters
> >  and one
> >  orginal Minkota-controler for the main engine in Sgt.Peppers.
> (SNIP)
> 
> That's not far from what I was originally thinking of, although I would only
> have one joystick (maybe two if I can make it work better that way).
> 
> >  > 5. How are the things that need holes in the hull made so that they don't
> >  > leak or compromise the safety of the sub?
> >
> >  Hmm.. Let me think - one hole for each motor cable .- one hole for VHF
> >  Antenna
> >  two holes for main battery cable, two for the lamps, one for the drop
> >  weight release,
> >  One big one for the front window, one for the entrance,
> >  5 for the ballast tank-air-out/in pipes, 2 for the regulator,
> >  one for the snorckel : about 21 holes in Sgt.Peppers.. most for cables.
> >  There are some good description on "Manned Submersibles".
> >  All holes tighted by different design of o-rings.
> >
> (SNIP)
> >  Just bubble outside - is the normal way, replenished from a air tank,
> >  which can be filled with a normal scuba-compressor. The compressor
> >  should be
> >  onshore on smaller subs. Bigger subs have them inside but this make only
> >  sence
> >  in combination with a diesel. There is no reason to have a compressor on
> >  board
> >  of a electric-only driven sub. You lost the space for the compressor,
> >  for
> >  aditional batteries - put a bigger pressure bottle to the sub is much
> >  simpler
> >  and more safe.
> 
> Is there any specific number of times that I should be able to blow the
> ballast or should I just put the biggest tanks that I can fit onboard and
> have another extra one that has enough gas to take me to the surface once?

You ask a me - so I look at the rules : 

If you blow out your ballast-tanks (soft-tanks for surfcae bouancy and
freeboard only) 
with air it should be possible to blow them out 4 times (on the
surface). 
AND you regulator tank(s) (hard tanks to make your underwater bouancy to
"zero")
should be blow out 3 times at your working deep. 

The air should be storage in two independant groups. 
In Sgt.Peppers I have two groups. One bottle is on the tank piping
system the other of the same
size on the scuba gear. There have both quick relase valves so I can
change both bottles if 
requiert. Ballast-tanks have a volume of 90 liters, both bottles have 
4 Liters with 225 bar = 2 x 4 x 225 = 1800 Liters / 90 Liters = 20 times
on the surface
Regulator-tank has 10 Liters with maximum dive of 150m so 
10 x 15 bar x 3 times needs 450 liter : 1800 / 450 = 4 x 3 = 12 times at
working deep. 

According to the rules : 1800 - 450 = 1350 Liter / 90 Liter = 15 times -
that means I can blow out the regulator tanks 3 times at working deep
and 15 times on the surface

Also intressting (not for the rules) is how often you can blow you
regulator- AND your ballast- tanks 
at the working-deep : here 150 m (equal to 15 bar ) needs : 
(10 liter  + 90 liter) x 15 bar = 1500 liter . 1800/1500 = 1,2 times..
The forces of positive bouancy is than 100 liter (equal 100 kg or 220
lb) - 
that will -maybe- destroy the small fishing-rope that catched your
propeller. If not the 
drop weight will give additional 200 lb - if not the 76 hours of oxygen
will
help to give you friends time to find the sub and cut the rope..

An accident is normaly not only one big error - its an addition of small
errors and mistakes.

> 
> (SNIP)
> >  > 7. If I can't get a copy of "Manned Submersibles," what other book(s)
> can
> > I
> >  > use?
> >
> >  "Manned submarines" is a very good starter. "Jane's Ocean Technology
> >  1978" is also
> >  a good source. Some books about simple metal technology and Physik will
> >  also help.
> 
> OK
> 
> >  >
> >  > 8. I have noticed that other subs that I have seen seem to be unusually
> > heavy
> >  > as well as unusually expensive (such as one sub that weighed 3.5 tons,
> was
> > 8
> >  > feet long and cost $100,000), why is this?
> >
> >  Depents on your specification.
> >  How many person, how long, speed, range, diver look out or not.
> >
> >  For a Psub a good size is a two persons steel sub which can be driven
> >  on a trailer behind your pickup. Around 2 tons should be fit the most
> >  specifications. Sgt.Peppers with only 0,65 t is clear a midget version
> >  of a midget. I was last week in the museum and listen to a guy which
> >  explain
> >  to his child that it is maybe only a model of a sub...
> >
> >  A Kittredge size sub should be possible for about 15.000 Dollar for the
> >  material
> >  and some foreign working hours. Sgt.Peppers material was around 7.000
> >  Dollar
> >  including the trailer and the battery charger. CSSX will be play in a
> >  other class..
> 
> Sounds fair enough, although I don't think CSSX will be transported on a
> trailer behind a pickup.

CSSX can be dismounted to three parts : The sail, the stern including 
the machinery space and the forward body with the bow. The beam, length
and high of this parts make it possible to carry it on two trucks all
over europe. Its for example less expensive and much quicker to travel 
the sub in this parts from the North Sea to the Mediterranean this way..
The bolted frame is in the machinery space just behind the
diver-chamber,
so it is also easy to refit or change bigger parts like the diesel. 

> 
> >  If you have no expirence with steel - maybe work for one/two weeks as
> >  help-mate
> >  in a metal-shop (during you free-time or holiday or payed).
> >
> >  Pat is right - steel is unexpensive and simple to handle.
> >  I can use both steel and reinforced GRP / GFK and I like
> >  the steel. I calculate with 0,5 Dollar for each Kilogramm (1/1000 t)
> >  steel
> >  if I work self and with 1,2 Dollar for each Kilogramm made ready to
> >  use/build in
> >  from a metal shop. For stainless steel it is much more - about 3 Dollar
> >  if you work yourself - but weelding needs much more expirence.
> 
> I wonder if stainless would be worth the extra money if it lasts longer than
> other steels.

Not for the main body - also it not so easy to handle (welding,
drilling) 
as normal steel. On CSSX some parts made from stainless steel. 
For example the frames of the superstructure - because they are
difficult
to repaint. Also the shaft of the acrylic periscop mast and all the
rings 
were the rubber of the hatches closed - because bad painting or
corrosion
here will be prefent the rubber from sealing. 

> 
> >  > 9. What is a reasonable dive time for a Psub?
> >
> >  About 2-4 hours for a lake sub, up to 8 hours for a
> >  offshore Psub (My opinion..). One week for 4-5 person for a
> >  autonomous sub. CSSX will be surface all 12 hours to clean the inside
> >  air (using the diesel via hatch as fan..) so it don't need the scrubber
> >   and the oxygen system in travel and search mode. In sitting on the
> >  bottom
> >  and working mode on a wreck I will use it.  But supply with battery
> >  power should be 72/96 hours at least for the scrubber.
> 
> 8 hours is more than enough for me, especially since I don't think I want to
> put any...welll..sanitary systems into the sub.
> 
> BTW, why is there such a big safety margin for the O2?
> 

Hope I explain that some more up . 

> >  >
> >  > 10. What is a reasonable dive depth?
> >
> >  Between 90 feet and 1300 feet depents on want do you want to do with the
> >  sub. Over 1300 feet everything get very expensive including the pressure
> >  hull.
> >  For a private pleasure sub without a real operation idear - means just
> >  for fun
> >  300 feet should be okay - you can use standard valves and equipment from
> >  the
> >  next harbour-shop. CSSX will be 820 feet because this is the area I
> >  think diver
> >  could work in the next 2-20 years and also the area of the
> >  continental-shelf.
> 
> I was figuring 150 feet, although if the materials can take it I might
> increase it to 250 or even 300 feet.

Okay. But if it dives deeper than a diver you can earn someday maybe
some money..
A normal sport diver can dive 160 feet..

> 
> >  >
> >  > 11. How should the dome/hatch be sealed?
> >
> >  The dome will be fitted by a ring made from iron or stainless steel -
> >  this
> >  should have a nut for a o-ring or a other rubber ring. The dome on
> >  Sgt.Peppers
> >  is sealed to this bajonet-ring with silicon-zement on the dome side and
> >  with a
> >  o-ring on the pressure hull side. So I can blow the dome out with
> >  overpressure
> >  in the sub in emergency (if I sealed the overpressure vale..). But this
> >  is clear
> >  theoretical.
> 
> I want something that can be opened from the inside and outside, in case the
> operator (usually me) needs to be rescued, could there be some kind of
> bolting system?
> 

Nobody can open your sub in the deep from outside. The pressure
differntial between 
inside and outside will prevent that. Help from outside in the deep will
raise
your small boat. But it helps if you on the surface and you lungs are
filled with
smoke or other exhaust...

> >  >
> >  > 12. How does the emergency dropweight work? (I know the dropweight is
> > dropped
> >  > in emergencies to surface, but how
> >
> >  Make a hole in the bottom of you pressure hull, put a axis in - sealed
> >  with a o-ring.
> >  Inside a key to turn the axis 90 degree left or right. Outside a flat
> >  iron plate
> >  longer than beam. A hole inside the drop weight more beam than long. Its
> >  more or less
> >  like a door key. Sgt.Peppers use a system with a axis with a screw
> >  thread.
> >  Needs 10 times rotation and two springs press 8 outside horizontal bolts
> >  out their
> >  holes and the hole keel including the batteries and forward engines give
> >  way.
> >  The cables on the engines has plugs which gives also way. You should use
> >  the
> >  simplest mechanical device for this rescue system.. And a Psub without a
> >  dropweight
> >  should maybe be not displayed as project on this list/homepage.
> 
> Look, I'm rather paranoid about going down 150 feet, the last thing I need is
> my mom being paranoid too, I think I'll have a dropweight.
> 

Okay - so this long letter make sence.

> >  >
> >  > 13. How can a periscope be used with a dome?
> >
> >  Look in the archive for "periscope" - there is no real reason for one.
> >  CSSX will get one in form of a video-camera in a acrylic mast - but more
> >  for
> >  underwater use and to reach the visibility-high on surface.
> >
> >  Look for "Delfin" in the Picture Gallery to have a view to a not
> >  nessesary
> >  periskop...
> 
> It would just be nice to be able to see what is going on up on the surface,
> but from the looks of it it may not be worth it.
> 
> >  >
> >  > 14. How about a snorkel for shallow runs?
> >
> >  No reason for that. Sgt.Peppers has a snorkel to safe O2 and scrubber on
> >  the
> >  surface if the wind blowes/waves  and I have to drive with closed hatch
> >  because of
> >  the low freeboard of this small vessel. Its a good idear for offshore
> >  going small
> >  subs to increase the freeboard - specially on subs with domes as
> >  entrances.
> >  I use them also for "pre dive - all is tight" checks. Just blow out some
> >  air from
> >  the inside via my lungs to the snorckel. Shut vale and have a two
> >  minutes look to the
> >  inside pressure indicator (barometer).
> 
> I guess that with however much oxygen this thing carries a snorkel wouldn't
> be necessary, like the periscope.
> 
> >  >
> >  > 15. What kinds of lights are used for subs?
> >  >
> >  Simple : Divers lamp, also simple - sealed beams from General Electric.
> >  every thing with a voltage of your main battery can do the job. But
> >  the front window of pressure box of the lamp should be made from a
> >  material
> >  which can go hot on inside and cold on the outside same time..
> 
> Divers lamps sound like they might do the job, although the lamps from
> General Electric sounds good too.
> 
> >  > 16. Where can I get plans, kit or completed sonar? Is a sonar just a
> nifty
> >  > little toy that isn't going to do me much good unless I'm off treasure
> >  > hunting?
> >
> >  Its very useful - but a simple good one is expensive in the 4000-5000
> >  Dollar range.
> >  CSXX will be one forward echosounder, one for the deep and maybe one
> >  360° sonar or
> >  high resulutions echosounder on each side (use as side-scan-sonar) for
> >  wreck hunting.
> >  For a lake sub a good compass is the minimum of navigation equipment. My
> >  compass
> >  works only on Sgt.Peppers if no engine is running..
> 
> Ouch, 5000 dollars is more than I want to spend on the entire sub!

Look - most people build only one sub in their live. If you build it
from 
old material or in any other way in poor design - because out of money 
- you waste.. all the money and all the time. I know some (many..)
of this kind of private sub - they dive 1 -12 dives more or less and 
ended than in the forward garden ..
The last refit on Sgt.Peppers was 2000 Dollar - only the refit ! 

Make a pre-calculation of the estimate cost for your sub.
Don't forget the pressure hull with the frames, the dome, the batteries,
the cables
the engines, the scuba gear, the trailer, the big pickup, the battery
charger, 
the vales, pipes, radio, compas, joystick control, seat, helm, windows, 
the live-support system, pressure bottles, indicators, switches, 
the working tools, the place to rent in the hangar, 
the time to rent a welding- profi or some other experts you need. 

If you have made this calculation - calculate 1.5 times higher.. thats
the price 
you have to pay.  

May ask Dale for the actuell price for his sub. I think 7500 Dollar is
the 
absolut minimum for a  u.s.e.f.u.l one seater. May about 15% more for a
double seater. 
A real design starts with about 15.000 Dollar. 

> 
> >  >
> >  > 17. How are the maneuvering thrusters worked out? Is it one thruster
> that
> > can
> >  > be swung around or is it multip;e stationary thrusters? How powerful are
> > they?
> >
> >  I like the fixed thruster - simpler to build - no turn around sealed
> >  axis
> >  - but you need more thruster.. Looking in the archive for ..oil
> >  compensation..
> >  and for ..air pressure compensation.. If you use thruster with oil or
> >  air compensation
> >  you can use simple electric-outboards which are unexpensive. Sgt.Peppers
> >  use
> >  model-aircraft-petrolengine turn around starter which are very powerful
> >  and small.
> >  The pressure hull is self made from PVC - pressure pipes and endcaps.
> >  For fixed thruster which can change the propeller rotation direction are
> >  very fast
> >  in reaction time. A turn around thruster needs more time to handle and
> >  more
> >  equipment to turn and control them.
> 
> Eight small motors should do the job rather nicely then, now all I have to do
> is find the right size.....

Eight seams to much - two seems the minimum and more than fife makes no
sence (for me). 
If two small engines have the same job - use one bigger. Easier to build
and not so
expensive. And in some cases - less parts - more save. 

> 
> >  >
> >  > 18. Which is better for a hull: New propane tank or getting some tubing
> > and
> >  > two endcaps?
> >
> >  Look in the archive for the "propane tank". Its better too make a plan
> >  from you sub which full-fill all your requirements. Than calculate the
> >  pressure
> >  hull - Its unexpensive to buy a new special for you made tubing and
> >  endcaps.
> >  A propane tank will compromisse you sub to the given dimensions of the
> >  tank -
> >  means to big or to small - but in the most manners to low dive deep
> >  because
> >  of the small thickness of the material. The pressure hull is clear not
> >  you main
> >  problem .. not for the cost and not for the design..
> 
> I think that Ferrellgas has a 10ft. by 3.5ft. tank used at gas stations or
> other refilling stations, which would be perfect for me unless buying some
> pipe and some endcaps are cheaper.

3,5 square x 3,1415 / 4 x 10 = 2,3 t displacement for the hull, 
about 2,7 - 3 ts for the hole boat.

> 
> >  >
> >  > 19. Should I put ribs in? If so, how do I make them?
> >  >
> >
> >  Ohh..ähmm.. ---- Depents on the dive deep and the thickness of your
> >  tubing and
> >  the diameter of your tubing and the material of your tubing and..
> >  First make a specification what your submarine should be doing for your
> >  -
> >  than give the specifications to the group. In the most solutions you
> >  need
> >  ribs. Sgt.Peppers has no ribs but a small diameter of the tubing made
> >  from
> >  1/3 inch high density steel. If I put a single rib in it will increase
> >  very
> >  the dive deep  - maybe for using them as ROV ..
> >  Some of the group can calculate this very quick for you - including me..
> 
> Wow, if putting in two or three ribs will increase my dive depth then I might
> as well put them in even if only for safety.

Add to you gas-tank the cost to cut the tank in two parts to put the
rings 
and the equipment in. If you not cut it - okay add the building time
with 
a factor of 1,5 to 2 ... And use a gas-mask or scuba gear if you want to 
welding something inside..

> 
> >  > 20. Are you trying to figure out what day it is because my list of
> > qustions
> >  > is too long?
> >
> >  Its the 1.095.000 day - after my spaceship crash into the ocean of this
> >  small planet
> >  - and I must wait so long that the animals on this planet find out how a
> >  wheel
> >  work, steel is to make, or a diesel is working. But will maybe fly home
> >  some weeks
> >  after CSSX is properly working.
> >
> >  Sorry about my english - I am not from here.
> 
> Your English is far better than my German, and you are more understandable
> than some people who have spoken english all their lives.
> 
> Anthony


Everthing I told here is my private opinion - you use this information
at your own risk.
(This sentence was for my insurance company.)

Best regards - Carsten 
And do it right - or don't do it.