From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Dec 9 20:21:39 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:21:39 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances Message-ID: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> Sent from my iPhone I got a real surprise yesterday, I went to fit my large viewport in front on my K-350 and it wouldn?t slide inside the receiver that I had machined for it. They made it about 1/4? too small! I should have double checked it before welding it into the front head but didn?t. I had the viewports cut in California and is to speck, 15?. Kitteredge called out using gasket but a lot of you I believe used Silaflex that comes out of a tube. I found someone who can chuck up something that is 16? in diameter so will have him turn it down 1/4? or so, so it will fit in the receptacle but I need enough of a gap on the edges for the Sikaflex to ooze out. Your thoughts? Rick From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 08:11:07 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 13:11:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <841271978.1580649.1733836267599@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick, Hopefully Alec Smyth will see your post and comment.? Also, Dave Colombo just went through using caulking to re-mount his K-250 dome in the field at Block Island and can be another good resource. How round is your viewport thru-hull?? If it's close to perfect why not reduce the viewport diameter just enough to get a tight clearance and stick with a gasket seal? If you decide to use sikaflex, a loose clearance (1/8 to 3/16) should work I suspect.? You don't want too large of a gap because geometrically it will negatively affect the required seat width for the acrylic. Jon On Monday, December 9, 2024 at 08:24:23 PM EST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sent from my iPhone I got a real surprise yesterday, I went to fit my large viewport in front on my K-350 and it wouldn?t slide inside the receiver that I had machined for it. They made it about 1/4? too small! I should have double checked it before welding it into the front head but didn?t. I had the viewports cut in California and is to speck, 15?.? Kitteredge called out using gasket but a lot of you I believe used Silaflex that comes out of a tube. I found someone who can chuck up something that is 16? in diameter so will have him turn it down 1/4? or so, so it will fit in the receptacle but I need enough of a gap on the edges for the Sikaflex to ooze out. Your thoughts? Rick _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 08:45:15 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 08:45:15 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rick, After you get your acrylic viewport lense machined down to the proper diameter , it's very important to have it put in a temperature controlled oven and anneal the stresses induced during the machining process. Preferably by someone experienced in doing this type of work. ( not in your kitchen oven ) Dan On Mon, Dec 9, 2024, 10:18 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sent from my iPhone > I got a real surprise yesterday, I went to fit my large viewport in front > on my K-350 and it wouldn?t slide inside the receiver that I had machined > for it. They made it about 1/4? too small! > I should have double checked it before welding it into the front head but > didn?t. > I had the viewports cut in California and is to speck, 15?. Kitteredge > called out using gasket but a lot of you I believe used Silaflex that comes > out of a tube. > I found someone who can chuck up something that is 16? in diameter so will > have him turn it down 1/4? or so, so it will fit in the receptacle but I > need enough of a gap on the edges for the Sikaflex to ooze out. > Your thoughts? > Rick > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 11:11:16 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 16:11:16 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rick, is this a flat disc viewport, and not a dome? See an excerpt from ASME PVHO-1-2023 below. Do, where referenced, is the window major diameter. 2-2.11.4 Flat Disk Windows 2-2.11.4.1 Window External Diameter. The dimensional tolerance of the external diameter of the window shall be based on the type of sealing arrangement for the window. (a) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.000/?0.010 in. (+0.000/?0.25 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. (b) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.000/?0.060 in. (+0.000/?1.5 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular space between the retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical surface of the seat cavity. (c) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.0/?0.125 (+0.0/?3.2 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially compressed by the retaining ring. (d) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.00/?0.02 Do of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a room temperature curing elastomeric compound injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and the cylindrical surface of the seat. (e) The plane bearing surface of the flat disk window shall not deviate more than 0.001 Do from an ideal plane. 2-2.11.4.2 Seat Cavity Diameter. The dimensional tolerance on the external diameter of the window seat cavity shall be based on the type of sealing arrangement for the window. (a) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be within +0.01/?0.00 in. (+0.25/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. (b) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be within +0.06/?0.00 in. (+1.5/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular space between the retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical surface of the seat cavity. (c) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be within +0.125/?0.000 in. (+3.2/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially compressed by the retaining ring. (d) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be within +0.01 Do /?0.000 of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a room-temperature curing elastomeric compound injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and the cylindrical surface of the seat. (e) The plane bearing surface of the seat cavity shall not deviate more than 0.002 Do from an ideal plane when measured with a feeler gauge inserted between the mating plane surfaces of the flat disk window or a circular plug gauge and the bare seat cavity. The axial force used to seat the window or the plug gauge shall not exceed 10 Do lb (4.53 Do kg) applied uniformly around its circumference. Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 12:43:50 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:43:50 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <841271978.1580649.1733836267599@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <841271978.1580649.1733836267599@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jon The viewport is 15" OD and the machined receiver is 14 3/4" heavy. I had machined a groove in all my viewport receivers for a rubber O ring but then heard that it created a point loading situation so I then filled the groove with weld metal so then planned to use a Sikaflex like a lot of the guys had. Rick On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 3:12?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, > > Hopefully Alec Smyth will see your post and comment. Also, Dave Colombo > just went through using caulking to re-mount his K-250 dome in the field at > Block Island and can be another good resource. > > How round is your viewport thru-hull? If it's close to perfect why not > reduce the viewport diameter just enough to get a tight clearance and stick > with a gasket seal? > > If you decide to use sikaflex, a loose clearance (1/8 to 3/16) should work > I suspect. You don't want too large of a gap because geometrically it will > negatively affect the required seat width for the acrylic. > > Jon > > > > On Monday, December 9, 2024 at 08:24:23 PM EST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > Sent from my iPhone > I got a real surprise yesterday, I went to fit my large viewport in front > on my K-350 and it wouldn?t slide inside the receiver that I had machined > for it. They made it about 1/4? too small! > I should have double checked it before welding it into the front head but > didn?t. > I had the viewports cut in California and is to speck, 15?. Kitteredge > called out using gasket but a lot of you I believe used Silaflex that comes > out of a tube. > I found someone who can chuck up something that is 16? in diameter so will > have him turn it down 1/4? or so, so it will fit in the receptacle but I > need enough of a gap on the edges for the Sikaflex to ooze out. > Your thoughts? > Rick > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 12:46:55 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:46:55 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Dan, Yes I know as I went through the trouble of sending all the view ports to Greg back east to anneal while he was working with a plastics company so realized that that would have to be done once again. Does anyone know of anyone who might do that? Rick On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 3:46?AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > After you get your acrylic viewport lense machined down to the proper > diameter , it's very important to have it put in a temperature controlled > oven and anneal the stresses induced during the machining process. > Preferably by someone experienced in doing this type of work. ( not in your > kitchen oven ) > Dan > > On Mon, Dec 9, 2024, 10:18 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> I got a real surprise yesterday, I went to fit my large viewport in front >> on my K-350 and it wouldn?t slide inside the receiver that I had machined >> for it. They made it about 1/4? too small! >> I should have double checked it before welding it into the front head but >> didn?t. >> I had the viewports cut in California and is to speck, 15?. Kitteredge >> called out using gasket but a lot of you I believe used Silaflex that comes >> out of a tube. >> I found someone who can chuck up something that is 16? in diameter so >> will have him turn it down 1/4? or so, so it will fit in the receptacle but >> I need enough of a gap on the edges for the Sikaflex to ooze out. >> Your thoughts? >> Rick >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 12:54:31 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 07:54:31 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Sean, The viewports are flat. Thanks for the data. On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 6:12?AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick, is this a flat disc viewport, and not a dome? > > See an excerpt from ASME PVHO-1-2023 below. *Do*, where referenced, is > the window major diameter. > > * 2-2.11.4 Flat Disk Windows* > > *2-2.11.4.1 Window External Diameter.* > > The dimensional tolerance of the external diameter of the window shall be > based on the type of sealing arrangement for the window. > > * (a)* The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within > +0.000/?0.010 in. (+0.000/?0.25 mm) of the nominal value if the window is > to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. > > * (b)* The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within > +0.000/?0.060 in. (+0.000/?1.5 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to > be sealed in the seat > cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular space between the > retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical surface of the seat > cavity. > > * (c)* The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within > +0.0/?0.125 (+0.0/?3.2 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be > sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially compressed > by the retaining ring. > > * (d)* The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within > +0.00/?0.02 *Do* of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in > the seat cavity with a room temperature curing elastomeric compound > injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and the > cylindrical surface of the seat. > > * (e)* The plane bearing surface of the flat disk window shall not > deviate more than 0.001 *Do* from an ideal plane. > > > *2-2.11.4.2 Seat Cavity Diameter.* > > The dimensional tolerance on the external diameter of the window seat > cavity shall be based on the type of sealing arrangement for the window. > > *(a)* The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be > within +0.01/?0.00 in. (+0.25/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window > is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. > > *(b)* The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be > within +0.06/?0.00 in. (+1.5/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is > to be sealed in the seat cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular > space between the retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical > surface of the seat cavity. > > *(c)* The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be > within +0.125/?0.000 in. (+3.2/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window > is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially > compressed by the retaining ring. > > *(d)* The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be > within +0.01 *Do */?0.000 of the nominal value if the window is to be > sealed in the seat cavity with a room-temperature curing elastomeric > compound injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and > the cylindrical surface of the seat. > > *(e)* The plane bearing surface of the seat cavity shall not deviate more > than 0.002 *Do* from an ideal plane when measured with a feeler gauge > inserted between the mating plane surfaces of the flat disk window or a > circular plug gauge and the bare seat cavity. The axial force used to seat > the window or the plug gauge shall not exceed 10 *Do* lb (4.53 *Do* kg) > applied uniformly around its circumference. > > Sean > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 13:34:27 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 18:34:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, I would do some more research on annealing your port again. ?If I recall, a window is only allowed one annealing cycle. ?The reason for annealing after machining is due to heat build up for machining. ?I have machined and tested ports without an annealing cycle. ?The trick is to take super small passes .005 and even spray water on it as its ?cutting. ? I was talking to a machinist one time about machining domes and he put ice water in the dish to keep it cool.Its been a while since I worked on this, so check it out, in case my memory is off.Hank On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 10:55:04 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Sean,The viewports are flat. Thanks for the data. On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 6:12?AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, is this a flat disc viewport, and not a dome? See an excerpt from ASME PVHO-1-2023 below. Do, where referenced, is the window major diameter. 2-2.11.4 Flat Disk Windows 2-2.11.4.1 Window External Diameter.? The dimensional tolerance of the external diameter of the window shall be based on the type of sealing arrangement for the window. (a) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.000/?0.010 in. (+0.000/?0.25 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. (b) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.000/?0.060 in. (+0.000/?1.5 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular space between the retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical surface of the seat cavity. (c) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.0/?0.125 (+0.0/?3.2 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially compressed by the retaining ring. (d) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.00/?0.02?Do of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a room temperature curing elastomeric compound injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and the cylindrical surface of the seat. (e) The plane bearing surface of the flat disk window shall not deviate more than 0.001 Do from an ideal plane. 2-2.11.4.2 Seat Cavity Diameter. The dimensional tolerance on the external diameter of the window seatcavity shall be based on the type of sealing arrangement?for the window. (a) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk?window shall be within +0.01/?0.00 in. (+0.25/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. (b) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk?window shall be within +0.06/?0.00 in. (+1.5/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular space between the retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical surface of the seat cavity. (c) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk?window shall be within +0.125/?0.000 in. (+3.2/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially compressed by the retaining ring. (d) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk?window shall be within +0.01 Do?/?0.000 of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a room-temperature curing elastomeric compound injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and the cylindrical surface of the seat. (e) The plane bearing surface of the seat cavity shall not?deviate more than 0.002 Do from an ideal plane when measured with a feeler gauge inserted between the mating plane surfaces of the flat disk window or a circular plug gauge and the bare seat cavity. The axial force used to seat the window or the plug gauge shall not exceed 10 Do lb (4.53 Do kg) applied uniformly around its circumference. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 14:03:25 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 19:03:25 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Definitely try to get a quote for in-situ machining of the seat. If you trailer the boat to the machine shop, it could end up being cheaper than re-machining the window and then sending it out for a full anneal. On Tuesday, December 10th, 2024 at 11:34, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Rick, I would do some more research on annealing your port again. If I recall, a window is only allowed one annealing cycle. The reason for annealing after machining is due to heat build up for machining. I have machined and tested ports without an annealing cycle. The trick is to take super small passes .005 and even spray water on it as its cutting. I was talking to a machinist one time about machining domes and he put ice water in the dish to keep it cool. > Its been a while since I worked on this, so check it out, in case my memory is off. > Hank > > On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 10:55:04 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hey Sean, > The viewports are flat. Thanks for the data. > > On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 6:12?AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Rick, is this a flat disc viewport, and not a dome? >> >> See an excerpt from ASME PVHO-1-2023 below. Do, where referenced, is the window major diameter. >> 2-2.11.4 Flat Disk Windows >> >> 2-2.11.4.1 Window External Diameter. >> >> The dimensional tolerance of the external diameter of the window shall be based on the type of sealing arrangement for the window. >> >> (a) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.000/?0.010 in. (+0.000/?0.25 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. >> >> (b) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.000/?0.060 in. (+0.000/?1.5 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat >> cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular space between the retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical surface of the seat cavity. >> >> (c) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.0/?0.125 (+0.0/?3.2 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially compressed by the retaining ring. >> >> (d) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.00/?0.02 Do of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a room temperature curing elastomeric compound injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and the cylindrical surface of the seat. >> >> (e) The plane bearing surface of the flat disk window shall not deviate more than 0.001 Do from an ideal plane. >> >> 2-2.11.4.2 Seat Cavity Diameter. >> >> The dimensional tolerance on the external diameter of the window seat >> cavity shall be based on the type of sealing arrangement for the window. >> >> (a) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be within +0.01/?0.00 in. (+0.25/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. >> >> (b) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be within +0.06/?0.00 in. (+1.5/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular space between the retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical surface of the seat cavity. >> >> (c) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be within +0.125/?0.000 in. (+3.2/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially compressed by the retaining ring. >> >> (d) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be within +0.01 Do /?0.000 of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a room-temperature curing elastomeric compound injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and the cylindrical surface of the seat. >> >> (e) The plane bearing surface of the seat cavity shall not deviate more than 0.002 Do from an ideal plane when measured with a feeler gauge inserted between the mating plane surfaces of the flat disk window or a circular plug gauge and the bare seat cavity. The axial force used to seat the window or the plug gauge shall not exceed 10 Do lb (4.53 Do kg) applied uniformly around its circumference. >> >> Sean >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 14:13:07 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 12:13:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2BE43BEF-1B9F-4A5A-9657-10B480643163@yahoo.ca> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 14:40:25 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:40:25 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <2BE43BEF-1B9F-4A5A-9657-10B480643163@yahoo.ca> References: <2BE43BEF-1B9F-4A5A-9657-10B480643163@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <78523F2D-619A-4D27-B46D-8E19BF0FBF0E@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 14:45:47 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 12:45:47 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <78523F2D-619A-4D27-B46D-8E19BF0FBF0E@gmail.com> References: <78523F2D-619A-4D27-B46D-8E19BF0FBF0E@gmail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 16:55:18 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 16:55:18 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rick, Sean's suggestion of finding a machine shop that can do the in-situ machining to enlarge your viewport frame would probably produce the least amount of hassle. That's assuming there will be enough metal left on the perimeter flange after the machining process. If you have access to Jerry Stachiw's book "Handbook of Acrylics" it would certainly be worth the read . It goes into great detail outlining the recommended procedures for fabricating, machining and then annealing. A second annealing isn't out of the question ...it just must be done at carefully controlled lower temperatures. If you decide to go with reducing the diameter of the acrylic viewport , one possible company that might be able to help you is " www.hydrospacegroup.com" . If not they might be able to recommend someone that can ? Dan On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 10:18?PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Sent from my iPhone > I got a real surprise yesterday, I went to fit my large viewport in front > on my K-350 and it wouldn?t slide inside the receiver that I had machined > for it. They made it about 1/4? too small! > I should have double checked it before welding it into the front head but > didn?t. > I had the viewports cut in California and is to speck, 15?. Kitteredge > called out using gasket but a lot of you I believe used Silaflex that comes > out of a tube. > I found someone who can chuck up something that is 16? in diameter so will > have him turn it down 1/4? or so, so it will fit in the receptacle but I > need enough of a gap on the edges for the Sikaflex to ooze out. > Your thoughts? > Rick > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 17:34:27 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 12:34:27 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am not familiar with what you call "in-siku" machining? Rick On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 11:56?AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > Sean's suggestion of finding a machine shop that can do the in-situ > machining to enlarge your viewport frame would probably produce the least > amount of hassle. That's assuming there will be enough metal left on the > perimeter flange after the machining process. > If you have access to Jerry Stachiw's book "Handbook of Acrylics" it would > certainly be worth the read . It goes into great detail outlining the > recommended procedures for fabricating, machining and then annealing. A > second annealing isn't out of the question ...it just must be done at > carefully controlled lower temperatures. > If you decide to go with reducing the diameter of the acrylic viewport , > one possible company that might be able to help you is " > www.hydrospacegroup.com" . If not they might be able to recommend someone > that can ? > Dan > > On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 10:18?PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> I got a real surprise yesterday, I went to fit my large viewport in front >> on my K-350 and it wouldn?t slide inside the receiver that I had machined >> for it. They made it about 1/4? too small! >> I should have double checked it before welding it into the front head but >> didn?t. >> I had the viewports cut in California and is to speck, 15?. Kitteredge >> called out using gasket but a lot of you I believe used Silaflex that comes >> out of a tube. >> I found someone who can chuck up something that is 16? in diameter so >> will have him turn it down 1/4? or so, so it will fit in the receptacle but >> I need enough of a gap on the edges for the Sikaflex to ooze out. >> Your thoughts? >> Rick >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 18:08:47 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 23:08:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <323475293.1885386.1733872127499@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, insitu machining means the whole sub sits in the milling machine. ?Or it is a bolt on tool like a flange facing machine. ?I just asked CHAT GBT if a secon annealing can be done and it says it is not recomended, becuse it can cause micro fractures. ? The hand book of acrylics will tell the story either way.Hank On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 03:34:54 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I am not familiar?with what you call "in-siku" machining?? Rick On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 11:56?AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,Sean's suggestion of finding a machine shop that can do the in-situ machining to enlarge?your viewport frame would probably produce the least amount of hassle. That's assuming there will be enough metal left on the perimeter flange after the machining process.If you have access to Jerry Stachiw's?book "Handbook of Acrylics" it would certainly be worth the read . It goes into great detail outlining the recommended procedures for fabricating, machining and then annealing. A second annealing isn't out of the question ...it just must be done at carefully controlled lower temperatures.If you decide to go with reducing the diameter of the acrylic viewport , one possible company that might be able to help you is " www.hydrospacegroup.com" . If not they might be able to recommend someone that can ?Dan? On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 10:18?PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sent from my iPhone I got a real surprise yesterday, I went to fit my large viewport in front on my K-350 and it wouldn?t slide inside the receiver that I had machined for it. They made it about 1/4? too small! I should have double checked it before welding it into the front head but didn?t. I had the viewports cut in California and is to speck, 15?.? Kitteredge called out using gasket but a lot of you I believe used Silaflex that comes out of a tube. I found someone who can chuck up something that is 16? in diameter so will have him turn it down 1/4? or so, so it will fit in the receptacle but I need enough of a gap on the edges for the Sikaflex to ooze out. Your thoughts? Rick _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 18:23:46 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 18:23:46 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rick, Google "Flange Facing" or look on YouTube, its very commonly used to refurbish the sealing surfaces of pipe flanges and even large diameter heat exchanger flanges in Power Plants and Oil Refineries . A similar machining process would be implemented in your situation . "InSitu" just means in "place" On Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 5:51 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I am not familiar with what you call "in-siku" machining? > > Rick > > On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 11:56?AM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Rick, >> Sean's suggestion of finding a machine shop that can do the in-situ >> machining to enlarge your viewport frame would probably produce the least >> amount of hassle. That's assuming there will be enough metal left on the >> perimeter flange after the machining process. >> If you have access to Jerry Stachiw's book "Handbook of Acrylics" it >> would certainly be worth the read . It goes into great detail outlining the >> recommended procedures for fabricating, machining and then annealing. A >> second annealing isn't out of the question ...it just must be done at >> carefully controlled lower temperatures. >> If you decide to go with reducing the diameter of the acrylic viewport , >> one possible company that might be able to help you is " >> www.hydrospacegroup.com" . If not they might be able to recommend >> someone that can ? >> Dan >> >> On Mon, Dec 9, 2024 at 10:18?PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> I got a real surprise yesterday, I went to fit my large viewport in >>> front on my K-350 and it wouldn?t slide inside the receiver that I had >>> machined for it. They made it about 1/4? too small! >>> I should have double checked it before welding it into the front head >>> but didn?t. >>> I had the viewports cut in California and is to speck, 15?. Kitteredge >>> called out using gasket but a lot of you I believe used Silaflex that comes >>> out of a tube. >>> I found someone who can chuck up something that is 16? in diameter so >>> will have him turn it down 1/4? or so, so it will fit in the receptacle but >>> I need enough of a gap on the edges for the Sikaflex to ooze out. >>> Your thoughts? >>> Rick >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 18:53:04 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 18:53:04 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8B83CA52-A6BF-489D-9959-09C6BFF27FBA@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 19:06:05 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 14:06:05 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 19:15:28 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 00:15:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1231670376.1896415.1733876128133@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, You could always give up and donate it to the local School as a playground ornament. Alan Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 at 1:08 pm, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 19:49:17 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 14:49:17 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <1231670376.1896415.1733876128133@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1231670376.1896415.1733876128133@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Or a planter? My neighbor thinks I am crazy for building something like this and always refers to it as my Bar-B-Q! Rick On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 2:22?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > You could always give up and donate it to the local School as a playground > ornament. > Alan > > Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer > > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 at 1:08 pm, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 20:07:24 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 01:07:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <1231670376.1896415.1733876128133@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <563127358.1922700.1733879244114@mail.yahoo.com> Haha, He won't think you are crazy once you are out diving those waters off Hawaii. I think everyone on Psubs will be envying your dive location. I like Hanks solution of lots of passes on the acrylic & keeping it cool. You can leave the acrylic in a fridge for several hours before machining. My thought is that any heat from machining is only going to effect a small area around the perimeter as heat transfers slowly through acrylic. When I was getting a dome blown Greg Cotteral, Psubs acrylic expert, told me you can hold the acrylic up to sunlight and you get a rainbow effect in stressed areas. That's a rudimentary test. If you could get Gregg's contact info, you would be privy to some of the best advice you can get. Alan Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 at 1:52 pm, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 21:50:18 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 16:50:18 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <563127358.1922700.1733879244114@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1231670376.1896415.1733876128133@mail.yahoo.com> <563127358.1922700.1733879244114@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What's funny is that the one calling my sub a Bar-B-Q and concerned that I will kill myself in the sub was a phantom F-4 pilot who used to fly out of Da Nang where I was, dropping napalm at tree level and had to eject after being shot once just making the ocean so the NVC couldn't get him before the Navy could retrieve him! Funny how we perceive danger. I think I will do what Hank recommended, keeping it cool and taking small bites out of it. Sure is nice having a network like this! Rick On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 3:21?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Haha, > He won't think you are crazy once you are out diving those waters off > Hawaii. > I think everyone on Psubs will be envying your dive location. > I like Hanks solution of lots of passes on the acrylic & keeping it cool. > You can leave the acrylic in a fridge for several hours before machining. > My thought is that any heat from machining is only going to effect a small > area around the perimeter as heat transfers slowly through acrylic. > When I was getting a dome blown Greg Cotteral, Psubs acrylic expert, told > me you can hold the acrylic up to sunlight and you get a rainbow effect in > stressed areas. That's a rudimentary test. > If you could get Gregg's contact info, you would be privy to some of the > best advice you can get. > Alan > > Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer > > > On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 at 1:52 pm, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 22:54:51 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 03:54:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <1231670376.1896415.1733876128133@mail.yahoo.com> <563127358.1922700.1733879244114@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1135774738.908002.1733889291556@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,great story. I have always felt safe in subs.I can't see that thin passes with a sharp tool would stress the acrylic.?Alan Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 at 3:52 pm, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 10 23:56:25 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2024 23:56:25 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hank, what you're proposing sounds totally logical to me. However, I have asked Greg this very question in the past (whether we really have to anneal a viewport.) I'm not sure what the underlying causality is, but he has enough professional experience in the field that I just take his word for it. "You need to re-anneal it whenever any machining has been done on a viewport." Annealing is pretty straight forward. I'm currently working on forming acrylic headlight covers and windows for an antique car restoration. It's a new skill I'm trying to develop, so fortunately I'm not making anything safety-critical like viewports. But one interesting detail is that Greg strongly recommended annealing even for this, because it'll make the covers and windows less likely to crack (there could be stresses caused by mounting screws or flying pebbles, for instance.) He had two basic points he stressed for the things to last: 1) That not all acrylic was equal. The only one he will use is "cell cast" acrylic, and he warned me emphatically to stay away from the cheap stuff which can be referred to as extruded or "continuous cast." I know this has not been mentioned on this thread, but I bring it up because it seems to be key information. 2) Annealing Next time I speak to him, I'll ask about machining with light passes and coolant. Best, Alec On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 1:35?PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, I would do some more research on annealing your port again. If I > recall, a window is only allowed one annealing cycle. The reason for > annealing after machining is due to heat build up for machining. I have > machined and tested ports without an annealing cycle. The trick is to take > super small passes .005 and even spray water on it as its cutting. I was > talking to a machinist one time about machining domes and he put ice water > in the dish to keep it cool. > Its been a while since I worked on this, so check it out, in case my > memory is off. > Hank > > On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 10:55:04 AM MST, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hey Sean, > The viewports are flat. Thanks for the data. > > On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 6:12?AM Sean T. Stevenson via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Rick, is this a flat disc viewport, and not a dome? > > See an excerpt from ASME PVHO-1-2023 below. *Do*, where referenced, is > the window major diameter. > > * 2-2.11.4 Flat Disk Windows* > > *2-2.11.4.1 Window External Diameter.* > > The dimensional tolerance of the external diameter of the window shall be > based on the type of sealing arrangement for the window. > > * (a)* The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within > +0.000/?0.010 in. (+0.000/?0.25 mm) of the nominal value if the window is > to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. > > * (b)* The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within > +0.000/?0.060 in. (+0.000/?1.5 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to > be sealed in the seat > cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular space between the > retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical surface of the seat > cavity. > > * (c)* The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within > +0.0/?0.125 (+0.0/?3.2 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be > sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially compressed > by the retaining ring. > > * (d)* The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within > +0.00/?0.02 *Do* of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in > the seat cavity with a room temperature curing elastomeric compound > injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and the > cylindrical surface of the seat. > > * (e)* The plane bearing surface of the flat disk window shall not > deviate more than 0.001 *Do* from an ideal plane. > > > *2-2.11.4.2 Seat Cavity Diameter.* > > The dimensional tolerance on the external diameter of the window seat > cavity shall be based on the type of sealing arrangement for the window. > > *(a)* The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be > within +0.01/?0.00 in. (+0.25/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window > is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. > > *(b)* The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be > within +0.06/?0.00 in. (+1.5/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is > to be sealed in the seat cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular > space between the retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical > surface of the seat cavity. > > *(c)* The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be > within +0.125/?0.000 in. (+3.2/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window > is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially > compressed by the retaining ring. > > *(d)* The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk window shall be > within +0.01 *Do */?0.000 of the nominal value if the window is to be > sealed in the seat cavity with a room-temperature curing elastomeric > compound injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and > the cylindrical surface of the seat. > > *(e)* The plane bearing surface of the seat cavity shall not deviate more > than 0.002 *Do* from an ideal plane when measured with a feeler gauge > inserted between the mating plane surfaces of the flat disk window or a > circular plug gauge and the bare seat cavity. The axial force used to seat > the window or the plug gauge shall not exceed 10 *Do* lb (4.53 *Do* kg) > applied uniformly around its circumference. > > Sean > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 11 04:27:26 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 09:27:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <918232901.2006322.1733909246536@mail.yahoo.com> Alec,I wish I could remember where I heard or read that there is a limit to how many times it can be annealed. ?My understanding is, it needs an annealing cycle to stress relieve the blank, and a second after machining due to heat from machining. ?My memory may be failing me.Hank On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 09:56:51 PM MST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, what you're proposing sounds totally logical to?me. However, I have asked Greg this very question in the past (whether we really have to anneal a viewport.) I'm not sure what the underlying causality is, but he has enough professional experience in the?field that I just take his word for it. "You need to re-anneal it whenever any machining has been done on a viewport." Annealing is pretty straight forward.? I'm currently working on forming acrylic headlight covers and windows for an antique car restoration. It's a new skill I'm trying to develop, so fortunately I'm not making anything safety-critical?like viewports. But one interesting detail is that Greg strongly recommended annealing even for this, because it'll make the covers and windows less likely to crack (there could be stresses caused by mounting screws or flying pebbles,?for instance.) He had two basic points he stressed for the things to last: 1) That not all acrylic was equal. The only one he will?use is "cell cast" acrylic, and he warned me emphatically to stay away from the cheap stuff which can be referred to as extruded or "continuous cast." I know this has not been mentioned on this thread, but I bring it up because it seems to be key information.2) Annealing Next time I speak to him, I'll ask about machining with light passes and coolant. Best,Alec On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 1:35?PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I would do some more research on annealing your port again.? If I recall, a window is only allowed one annealing cycle.? The reason for annealing after machining is due to heat build up for machining.? I have machined and tested ports without an annealing cycle.? The trick is to take super small passes .005 and even spray water on it as its ?cutting. ? I was talking to a machinist one time about machining domes and he put ice water in the dish to keep it cool.Its been a while since I worked on this, so check it out, in case my memory is off.Hank On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 10:55:04 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Sean,The viewports are flat. Thanks for the data. On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 6:12?AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, is this a flat disc viewport, and not a dome? See an excerpt from ASME PVHO-1-2023 below. Do, where referenced, is the window major diameter. 2-2.11.4 Flat Disk Windows 2-2.11.4.1 Window External Diameter.? The dimensional tolerance of the external diameter of the window shall be based on the type of sealing arrangement for the window. (a) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.000/?0.010 in. (+0.000/?0.25 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. (b) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.000/?0.060 in. (+0.000/?1.5 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular space between the retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical surface of the seat cavity. (c) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.0/?0.125 (+0.0/?3.2 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially compressed by the retaining ring. (d) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.00/?0.02?Do of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a room temperature curing elastomeric compound injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and the cylindrical surface of the seat. (e) The plane bearing surface of the flat disk window shall not deviate more than 0.001 Do from an ideal plane. 2-2.11.4.2 Seat Cavity Diameter. The dimensional tolerance on the external diameter of the window seatcavity shall be based on the type of sealing arrangement?for the window. (a) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk?window shall be within +0.01/?0.00 in. (+0.25/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. (b) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk?window shall be within +0.06/?0.00 in. (+1.5/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular space between the retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical surface of the seat cavity. (c) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk?window shall be within +0.125/?0.000 in. (+3.2/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially compressed by the retaining ring. (d) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk?window shall be within +0.01 Do?/?0.000 of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a room-temperature curing elastomeric compound injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and the cylindrical surface of the seat. (e) The plane bearing surface of the seat cavity shall not?deviate more than 0.002 Do from an ideal plane when measured with a feeler gauge inserted between the mating plane surfaces of the flat disk window or a circular plug gauge and the bare seat cavity. The axial force used to seat the window or the plug gauge shall not exceed 10 Do lb (4.53 Do kg) applied uniformly around its circumference. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 11 05:04:03 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 10:04:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <918232901.2006322.1733909246536@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> <918232901.2006322.1733909246536@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1768292767.2019283.1733911443474@mail.yahoo.com> I had a look in the Hand Book Of ?Acrylics, but could not find anything about number of annealing cycles allowed. ?I then looked under machining of acrylic. ?It says you can sand out blemishes and ?scratches with water for cooling, and no mention of annealing. ? I also looked under removing crazing. ?It is the same thing, you can sand and polish it out, but it will return unless it is annealed. ?The conclusion to me is, you can sand and polish without an annealing cycle if the temperature is kept low. ?You can also do another annealing cycle, so I must be wrong about not being able to repeatedly do annealing cycles. ?At the same time, a very gentle machining seems to fall into the sanding category, to me at least. ?Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2024 at 02:27:40 AM MST, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec,I wish I could remember where I heard or read that there is a limit to how many times it can be annealed. ?My understanding is, it needs an annealing cycle to stress relieve the blank, and a second after machining due to heat from machining. ?My memory may be failing me.Hank On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 09:56:51 PM MST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, what you're proposing sounds totally logical to?me. However, I have asked Greg this very question in the past (whether we really have to anneal a viewport.) I'm not sure what the underlying causality is, but he has enough professional experience in the?field that I just take his word for it. "You need to re-anneal it whenever any machining has been done on a viewport." Annealing is pretty straight forward.? I'm currently working on forming acrylic headlight covers and windows for an antique car restoration. It's a new skill I'm trying to develop, so fortunately I'm not making anything safety-critical?like viewports. But one interesting detail is that Greg strongly recommended annealing even for this, because it'll make the covers and windows less likely to crack (there could be stresses caused by mounting screws or flying pebbles,?for instance.) He had two basic points he stressed for the things to last: 1) That not all acrylic was equal. The only one he will?use is "cell cast" acrylic, and he warned me emphatically to stay away from the cheap stuff which can be referred to as extruded or "continuous cast." I know this has not been mentioned on this thread, but I bring it up because it seems to be key information.2) Annealing Next time I speak to him, I'll ask about machining with light passes and coolant. Best,Alec On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 1:35?PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, I would do some more research on annealing your port again.? If I recall, a window is only allowed one annealing cycle.? The reason for annealing after machining is due to heat build up for machining.? I have machined and tested ports without an annealing cycle.? The trick is to take super small passes .005 and even spray water on it as its ?cutting. ? I was talking to a machinist one time about machining domes and he put ice water in the dish to keep it cool.Its been a while since I worked on this, so check it out, in case my memory is off.Hank On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 10:55:04 AM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hey Sean,The viewports are flat. Thanks for the data. On Tue, Dec 10, 2024 at 6:12?AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, is this a flat disc viewport, and not a dome? See an excerpt from ASME PVHO-1-2023 below. Do, where referenced, is the window major diameter. 2-2.11.4 Flat Disk Windows 2-2.11.4.1 Window External Diameter.? The dimensional tolerance of the external diameter of the window shall be based on the type of sealing arrangement for the window. (a) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.000/?0.010 in. (+0.000/?0.25 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. (b) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.000/?0.060 in. (+0.000/?1.5 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular space between the retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical surface of the seat cavity. (c) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.0/?0.125 (+0.0/?3.2 mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially compressed by the retaining ring. (d) The external diameter of the flat disk window shall be within +0.00/?0.02?Do of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a room temperature curing elastomeric compound injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and the cylindrical surface of the seat. (e) The plane bearing surface of the flat disk window shall not deviate more than 0.001 Do from an ideal plane. 2-2.11.4.2 Seat Cavity Diameter. The dimensional tolerance on the external diameter of the window seatcavity shall be based on the type of sealing arrangement?for the window. (a) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk?window shall be within +0.01/?0.00 in. (+0.25/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a radially compressed O-ring. (b) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk?window shall be within +0.06/?0.00 in. (+1.5/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a seal ring wedged into the annular space between the retaining ring, the window?s bevel, and the cylindrical surface of the seat cavity. (c) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk?window shall be within +0.125/?0.000 in. (+3.2/?0.00mm) of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a flat elastomeric gasket axially compressed by the retaining ring. (d) The diameter of the seat cavity for a flat disk?window shall be within +0.01 Do?/?0.000 of the nominal value if the window is to be sealed in the seat cavity with a room-temperature curing elastomeric compound injected into the annular space between the edge of the window and the cylindrical surface of the seat. (e) The plane bearing surface of the seat cavity shall not?deviate more than 0.002 Do from an ideal plane when measured with a feeler gauge inserted between the mating plane surfaces of the flat disk window or a circular plug gauge and the bare seat cavity. The axial force used to seat the window or the plug gauge shall not exceed 10 Do lb (4.53 Do kg) applied uniformly around its circumference. Sean _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 11 09:15:25 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 14:15:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <929659790.2078015.1733926525930@mail.yahoo.com> We should perhaps seek some clarification from Greg if he's willing to guide us.? I had a conversation with him about Kittredge annealing and he told me Kittredge never annealed any of his viewports.?? Stachiw was pretty adamant about annealing in his book.? Like Hank, I do seem to recall some restrictions regarding annealing multiple times although I don't recall if it's a single time or a different schedule as Dan suggested and I don't have my Stachiw book with me right now to check.? There is a rather obscure one sentence statement by Stachiw in his book in which he says any annealing is better than none.? This suggests to me that while adhering to the strict annealing schedule is ideal, if it cannot be met benefits will still be derived from a looser schedule. Jon On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 11:59:14 PM EST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, what you're proposing sounds totally logical to?me. However, I have asked Greg this very question in the past (whether we really have to anneal a viewport.) I'm not sure what the underlying causality is, but he has enough professional experience in the?field that I just take his word for it. "You need to re-anneal it whenever any machining has been done on a viewport." Annealing is pretty straight forward.? I'm currently working on forming acrylic headlight covers and windows for an antique car restoration. It's a new skill I'm trying to develop, so fortunately I'm not making anything safety-critical?like viewports. But one interesting detail is that Greg strongly recommended annealing even for this, because it'll make the covers and windows less likely to crack (there could be stresses caused by mounting screws or flying pebbles,?for instance.) He had two basic points he stressed for the things to last: 1) That not all acrylic was equal. The only one he will?use is "cell cast" acrylic, and he warned me emphatically to stay away from the cheap stuff which can be referred to as extruded or "continuous cast." I know this has not been mentioned on this thread, but I bring it up because it seems to be key information.2) Annealing Next time I speak to him, I'll ask about machining with light passes and coolant. Best,Alec -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 11 17:42:56 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2024 22:42:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <929659790.2078015.1733926525930@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> <929659790.2078015.1733926525930@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <509219333.2357409.1733956976047@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,?I have a concern about using a sealant for your front port. ?You mention that you welded up an o-ring groove and thats why you want to use a sealant. ?If you did not have the seat machined after welding and smoothing the weld, then it may be distorted. ?Using a sealant to make up for the distortion may be a bad idea. ?The sealant is not going to transfer the load evenly to the seat, given the softness. ?If that is the case, I would have it machined again, even if it means cutting the frame out. ?That solves both problems. ?Welding it back in would be a breeze for you. ?Cut it out from the inside to avoid burning interior stuff. ?I have built a wood bulk head in Gamma to protect the interior when I cut the front off.Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2024 at 07:15:41 AM MST, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We should perhaps seek some clarification from Greg if he's willing to guide us.? I had a conversation with him about Kittredge annealing and he told me Kittredge never annealed any of his viewports.?? Stachiw was pretty adamant about annealing in his book.? Like Hank, I do seem to recall some restrictions regarding annealing multiple times although I don't recall if it's a single time or a different schedule as Dan suggested and I don't have my Stachiw book with me right now to check.? There is a rather obscure one sentence statement by Stachiw in his book in which he says any annealing is better than none.? This suggests to me that while adhering to the strict annealing schedule is ideal, if it cannot be met benefits will still be derived from a looser schedule. Jon On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 11:59:14 PM EST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, what you're proposing sounds totally logical to?me. However, I have asked Greg this very question in the past (whether we really have to anneal a viewport.) I'm not sure what the underlying causality is, but he has enough professional experience in the?field that I just take his word for it. "You need to re-anneal it whenever any machining has been done on a viewport." Annealing is pretty straight forward.? I'm currently working on forming acrylic headlight covers and windows for an antique car restoration. It's a new skill I'm trying to develop, so fortunately I'm not making anything safety-critical?like viewports. But one interesting detail is that Greg strongly recommended annealing even for this, because it'll make the covers and windows less likely to crack (there could be stresses caused by mounting screws or flying pebbles,?for instance.) He had two basic points he stressed for the things to last: 1) That not all acrylic was equal. The only one he will?use is "cell cast" acrylic, and he warned me emphatically to stay away from the cheap stuff which can be referred to as extruded or "continuous cast." I know this has not been mentioned on this thread, but I bring it up because it seems to be key information.2) Annealing Next time I speak to him, I'll ask about machining with light passes and coolant. Best,Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 12 13:19:58 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2024 08:19:58 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <509219333.2357409.1733956976047@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> <929659790.2078015.1733926525930@mail.yahoo.com> <509219333.2357409.1733956976047@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Hank, I'll check it out. Rick On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 12:54?PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, > I have a concern about using a sealant for your front port. You mention > that you welded up an o-ring groove and thats why you want to use a > sealant. If you did not have the seat machined after welding and smoothing > the weld, then it may be distorted. Using a sealant to make up for the > distortion may be a bad idea. The sealant is not going to transfer the > load evenly to the seat, given the softness. If that is the case, I would > have it machined again, even if it means cutting the frame out. That > solves both problems. Welding it back in would be a breeze for you. Cut > it out from the inside to avoid burning interior stuff. I have built a > wood bulk head in Gamma to protect the interior when I cut the front off. > Hank > > On Wednesday, December 11, 2024 at 07:15:41 AM MST, Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > We should perhaps seek some clarification from Greg if he's willing to > guide us. I had a conversation with him about Kittredge annealing and he > told me Kittredge never annealed any of his viewports. > > Stachiw was pretty adamant about annealing in his book. Like Hank, I do > seem to recall some restrictions regarding annealing multiple times > although I don't recall if it's a single time or a different schedule as > Dan suggested and I don't have my Stachiw book with me right now to check. > There is a rather obscure one sentence statement by Stachiw in his book in > which he says any annealing is better than none. This suggests to me that > while adhering to the strict annealing schedule is ideal, if it cannot be > met benefits will still be derived from a looser schedule. > > Jon > > > > On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 11:59:14 PM EST, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, what you're proposing sounds totally logical to me. However, I have > asked Greg this very question in the past (whether we really have to anneal > a viewport.) I'm not sure what the underlying causality is, but he has > enough professional experience in the field that I just take his word for > it. "You need to re-anneal it whenever any machining has been done on a > viewport." Annealing is pretty straight forward. > > I'm currently working on forming acrylic headlight covers and windows for > an antique car restoration. It's a new skill I'm trying to develop, so > fortunately I'm not making anything safety-critical like viewports. But one > interesting detail is that Greg strongly recommended annealing even for > this, because it'll make the covers and windows less likely to crack (there > could be stresses caused by mounting screws or flying pebbles, for > instance.) He had two basic points he stressed for the things to last: > > 1) That not all acrylic was equal. The only one he will use is "cell cast" > acrylic, and he warned me emphatically to stay away from the cheap stuff > which can be referred to as extruded or "continuous cast." I know this has > not been mentioned on this thread, but I bring it up because it seems to be > key information. > 2) Annealing > > Next time I speak to him, I'll ask about machining with light passes and > coolant. > > Best, > Alec > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 20 15:58:41 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2024 15:58:41 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> <929659790.2078015.1733926525930@mail.yahoo.com> <509219333.2357409.1733956976047@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi friends, I just got a call from Greg, so took the opportunity to ask him about this question of whether or not to anneal the front viewport after machining it to the lower diameter. I was correct about "any time you machine, you anneal" being the proper thing to do, but he also confirmed that Kittredge never annealed his viewports (which were all tested to 500'). In his opinion, given the modest depths we operate at, we're fine without annealing. But what surprised me was the nature of the downside. He didn't think machined-but-not-annealed viewports would fail prematurely, but he said they would craze prematurely with exposed to the sun. What happens is that the machining heats just a very thin layer of acrylic, at the surface. When you heat those molecules, they contract 2-3 percent, and that puts stress between the thin layer of surface molecules and the ones beneath. The crazing you see when acrylic has been exposed to the sun is cracks between the surface molecules and those below. If there is built in stress between those layers, then the UV-induced cracks appear much more easily. He also reminded me of something else. Rick, when you pot the window, be sure to wipe off the excess Sikaflex, rather than cut it off with a razor. If you cut off the excess, there's a high chance of scoring the surface. That, particularly on the inside face of the window that is going to be under tension, is far more concerning than not annealing as far as affecting failure depth. Best, Alec On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 4:27?PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Hank, I'll check it out. > > Rick > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 12:54?PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Rick, >> I have a concern about using a sealant for your front port. You mention >> that you welded up an o-ring groove and thats why you want to use a >> sealant. If you did not have the seat machined after welding and smoothing >> the weld, then it may be distorted. Using a sealant to make up for the >> distortion may be a bad idea. The sealant is not going to transfer the >> load evenly to the seat, given the softness. If that is the case, I would >> have it machined again, even if it means cutting the frame out. That >> solves both problems. Welding it back in would be a breeze for you. Cut >> it out from the inside to avoid burning interior stuff. I have built a >> wood bulk head in Gamma to protect the interior when I cut the front off. >> Hank >> >> On Wednesday, December 11, 2024 at 07:15:41 AM MST, Jon Wallace via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> We should perhaps seek some clarification from Greg if he's willing to >> guide us. I had a conversation with him about Kittredge annealing and he >> told me Kittredge never annealed any of his viewports. >> >> Stachiw was pretty adamant about annealing in his book. Like Hank, I do >> seem to recall some restrictions regarding annealing multiple times >> although I don't recall if it's a single time or a different schedule as >> Dan suggested and I don't have my Stachiw book with me right now to check. >> There is a rather obscure one sentence statement by Stachiw in his book in >> which he says any annealing is better than none. This suggests to me that >> while adhering to the strict annealing schedule is ideal, if it cannot be >> met benefits will still be derived from a looser schedule. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 11:59:14 PM EST, Alec Smyth via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, what you're proposing sounds totally logical to me. However, I have >> asked Greg this very question in the past (whether we really have to anneal >> a viewport.) I'm not sure what the underlying causality is, but he has >> enough professional experience in the field that I just take his word for >> it. "You need to re-anneal it whenever any machining has been done on a >> viewport." Annealing is pretty straight forward. >> >> I'm currently working on forming acrylic headlight covers and windows for >> an antique car restoration. It's a new skill I'm trying to develop, so >> fortunately I'm not making anything safety-critical like viewports. But one >> interesting detail is that Greg strongly recommended annealing even for >> this, because it'll make the covers and windows less likely to crack (there >> could be stresses caused by mounting screws or flying pebbles, for >> instance.) He had two basic points he stressed for the things to last: >> >> 1) That not all acrylic was equal. The only one he will use is "cell >> cast" acrylic, and he warned me emphatically to stay away from the cheap >> stuff which can be referred to as extruded or "continuous cast." I know >> this has not been mentioned on this thread, but I bring it up because it >> seems to be key information. >> 2) Annealing >> >> Next time I speak to him, I'll ask about machining with light passes and >> coolant. >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 20 17:35:44 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:35:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> <929659790.2078015.1733926525930@mail.yahoo.com> <509219333.2357409.1733956976047@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <287814425.5848037.1734734144298@mail.yahoo.com> Great advice thanks Alec.So in Rick's case, where he is machining the side rather than the faces, the crazing won't matter.Alan Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi friends, I just got a call from Greg, so took the opportunity to ask him about this question of whether or not to anneal the front viewport after machining it to the lower diameter. I was correct about "any time you machine, you anneal" being the proper thing to do, but he also confirmed that Kittredge never annealed his viewports (which were all tested to 500'). In his opinion, given the modest depths we operate at, we're fine without annealing. But what surprised me was the nature of the downside. He didn't think machined-but-not-annealed viewports would fail prematurely, but he said they would craze prematurely with exposed to the sun. What happens is that the machining?heats just a very thin layer of acrylic, at the surface. When you heat those molecules, they contract 2-3 percent, and that puts stress between the thin layer of surface molecules and the ones beneath. The crazing you see when acrylic has been exposed to the sun is cracks between the surface molecules and those below. If there is built in stress between those layers, then the UV-induced cracks appear much more easily. He also?reminded me of something else. Rick, when you pot the window, be sure to wipe off the excess Sikaflex, rather than cut it off with a razor. If you cut off the excess, there's a high chance of scoring the surface. That, particularly on the inside face of the window that is going to be under tension, is far more concerning than not annealing as far as affecting failure depth. Best,Alec On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 4:27?PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hank, I'll check it out. Rick On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 12:54?PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?I have a concern about using a sealant for your front port.? You mention that you welded up an o-ring groove and thats why you want to use a sealant.? If you did not have the seat machined after welding and smoothing the weld, then it may be distorted.? Using a sealant to make up for the distortion may be a bad idea.? The sealant is not going to transfer the load evenly to the seat, given the softness.? If that is the case, I would have it machined again, even if it means cutting the frame out.? That solves both problems.? Welding it back in would be a breeze for you.? Cut it out from the inside to avoid burning interior stuff.? I have built a wood bulk head in Gamma to protect the interior when I cut the front off.Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2024 at 07:15:41 AM MST, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We should perhaps seek some clarification from Greg if he's willing to guide us.? I had a conversation with him about Kittredge annealing and he told me Kittredge never annealed any of his viewports.?? Stachiw was pretty adamant about annealing in his book.? Like Hank, I do seem to recall some restrictions regarding annealing multiple times although I don't recall if it's a single time or a different schedule as Dan suggested and I don't have my Stachiw book with me right now to check.? There is a rather obscure one sentence statement by Stachiw in his book in which he says any annealing is better than none.? This suggests to me that while adhering to the strict annealing schedule is ideal, if it cannot be met benefits will still be derived from a looser schedule. Jon On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 11:59:14 PM EST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, what you're proposing sounds totally logical to?me. However, I have asked Greg this very question in the past (whether we really have to anneal a viewport.) I'm not sure what the underlying causality is, but he has enough professional experience in the?field that I just take his word for it. "You need to re-anneal it whenever any machining has been done on a viewport." Annealing is pretty straight forward.? I'm currently working on forming acrylic headlight covers and windows for an antique car restoration. It's a new skill I'm trying to develop, so fortunately I'm not making anything safety-critical?like viewports. But one interesting detail is that Greg strongly recommended annealing even for this, because it'll make the covers and windows less likely to crack (there could be stresses caused by mounting screws or flying pebbles,?for instance.) He had two basic points he stressed for the things to last: 1) That not all acrylic was equal. The only one he will?use is "cell cast" acrylic, and he warned me emphatically to stay away from the cheap stuff which can be referred to as extruded or "continuous cast." I know this has not been mentioned on this thread, but I bring it up because it seems to be key information.2) Annealing Next time I speak to him, I'll ask about machining with light passes and coolant. Best,Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 20 22:31:22 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:31:22 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <287814425.5848037.1734734144298@mail.yahoo.com> References: <287814425.5848037.1734734144298@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7F22A3A6-2DCE-4AE9-9926-D258F7356F2B@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 20 22:58:28 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2024 17:58:28 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <7F22A3A6-2DCE-4AE9-9926-D258F7356F2B@gmail.com> References: <287814425.5848037.1734734144298@mail.yahoo.com> <7F22A3A6-2DCE-4AE9-9926-D258F7356F2B@gmail.com> Message-ID: appreciate the feedback guys! On Fri, Dec 20, 2024 at 5:49?PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Good point, I agree! > > > On Dec 20, 2024, at 5:48?PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Great advice thanks Alec. > So in Rick's case, where he is machining the side rather than the faces, > the crazing won't matter. > Alan > > Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer > > > On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 at 11:19 am, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > Hi friends, > > I just got a call from Greg, so took the opportunity to ask him about this > question of whether or not to anneal the front viewport after machining it > to the lower diameter. I was correct about "any time you machine, you > anneal" being the proper thing to do, but he also confirmed that Kittredge > never annealed his viewports (which were all tested to 500'). In his > opinion, given the modest depths we operate at, we're fine without > annealing. But what surprised me was the nature of the downside. He didn't > think machined-but-not-annealed viewports would fail prematurely, but he > said they would craze prematurely with exposed to the sun. What happens is > that the machining heats just a very thin layer of acrylic, at the surface. > When you heat those molecules, they contract 2-3 percent, and that puts > stress between the thin layer of surface molecules and the ones beneath. > The crazing you see when acrylic has been exposed to the sun is cracks > between the surface molecules and those below. If there is built in stress > between those layers, then the UV-induced cracks appear much more easily. > > He also reminded me of something else. Rick, when you pot the window, be > sure to wipe off the excess Sikaflex, rather than cut it off with a razor. > If you cut off the excess, there's a high chance of scoring the surface. > That, particularly on the inside face of the window that is going to be > under tension, is far more concerning than not annealing as far as > affecting failure depth. > > Best, > Alec > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 4:27?PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Hank, I'll check it out. > > Rick > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 12:54?PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > I have a concern about using a sealant for your front port. You mention > that you welded up an o-ring groove and thats why you want to use a > sealant. If you did not have the seat machined after welding and smoothing > the weld, then it may be distorted. Using a sealant to make up for the > distortion may be a bad idea. The sealant is not going to transfer the > load evenly to the seat, given the softness. If that is the case, I would > have it machined again, even if it means cutting the frame out. That > solves both problems. Welding it back in would be a breeze for you. Cut > it out from the inside to avoid burning interior stuff. I have built a > wood bulk head in Gamma to protect the interior when I cut the front off. > Hank > > On Wednesday, December 11, 2024 at 07:15:41 AM MST, Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > We should perhaps seek some clarification from Greg if he's willing to > guide us. I had a conversation with him about Kittredge annealing and he > told me Kittredge never annealed any of his viewports. > > Stachiw was pretty adamant about annealing in his book. Like Hank, I do > seem to recall some restrictions regarding annealing multiple times > although I don't recall if it's a single time or a different schedule as > Dan suggested and I don't have my Stachiw book with me right now to check. > There is a rather obscure one sentence statement by Stachiw in his book in > which he says any annealing is better than none. This suggests to me that > while adhering to the strict annealing schedule is ideal, if it cannot be > met benefits will still be derived from a looser schedule. > > Jon > > > > On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 11:59:14 PM EST, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, what you're proposing sounds totally logical to me. However, I have > asked Greg this very question in the past (whether we really have to anneal > a viewport.) I'm not sure what the underlying causality is, but he has > enough professional experience in the field that I just take his word for > it. "You need to re-anneal it whenever any machining has been done on a > viewport." Annealing is pretty straight forward. > > I'm currently working on forming acrylic headlight covers and windows for > an antique car restoration. It's a new skill I'm trying to develop, so > fortunately I'm not making anything safety-critical like viewports. But one > interesting detail is that Greg strongly recommended annealing even for > this, because it'll make the covers and windows less likely to crack (there > could be stresses caused by mounting screws or flying pebbles, for > instance.) He had two basic points he stressed for the things to last: > > 1) That not all acrylic was equal. The only one he will use is "cell cast" > acrylic, and he warned me emphatically to stay away from the cheap stuff > which can be referred to as extruded or "continuous cast." I know this has > not been mentioned on this thread, but I bring it up because it seems to be > key information. > 2) Annealing > > Next time I speak to him, I'll ask about machining with light passes and > coolant. > > Best, > Alec > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 21 00:01:48 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2024 05:01:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> <929659790.2078015.1733926525930@mail.yahoo.com> <509219333.2357409.1733956976047@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1766342493.5906132.1734757308574@mail.yahoo.com> Alec, lots of great info there, thanks for updating us. Jon On Friday, December 20, 2024 at 05:19:11 PM EST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi friends, I just got a call from Greg, so took the opportunity to ask him about this question of whether or not to anneal the front viewport after machining it to the lower diameter. I was correct about "any time you machine, you anneal" being the proper thing to do, but he also confirmed that Kittredge never annealed his viewports (which were all tested to 500'). In his opinion, given the modest depths we operate at, we're fine without annealing. But what surprised me was the nature of the downside. He didn't think machined-but-not-annealed viewports would fail prematurely, but he said they would craze prematurely with exposed to the sun. What happens is that the machining?heats just a very thin layer of acrylic, at the surface. When you heat those molecules, they contract 2-3 percent, and that puts stress between the thin layer of surface molecules and the ones beneath. The crazing you see when acrylic has been exposed to the sun is cracks between the surface molecules and those below. If there is built in stress between those layers, then the UV-induced cracks appear much more easily. He also?reminded me of something else. Rick, when you pot the window, be sure to wipe off the excess Sikaflex, rather than cut it off with a razor. If you cut off the excess, there's a high chance of scoring the surface. That, particularly on the inside face of the window that is going to be under tension, is far more concerning than not annealing as far as affecting failure depth. Best,Alec On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 4:27?PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hank, I'll check it out. Rick On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 12:54?PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?I have a concern about using a sealant for your front port.? You mention that you welded up an o-ring groove and thats why you want to use a sealant.? If you did not have the seat machined after welding and smoothing the weld, then it may be distorted.? Using a sealant to make up for the distortion may be a bad idea.? The sealant is not going to transfer the load evenly to the seat, given the softness.? If that is the case, I would have it machined again, even if it means cutting the frame out.? That solves both problems.? Welding it back in would be a breeze for you.? Cut it out from the inside to avoid burning interior stuff.? I have built a wood bulk head in Gamma to protect the interior when I cut the front off.Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2024 at 07:15:41 AM MST, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We should perhaps seek some clarification from Greg if he's willing to guide us.? I had a conversation with him about Kittredge annealing and he told me Kittredge never annealed any of his viewports.?? Stachiw was pretty adamant about annealing in his book.? Like Hank, I do seem to recall some restrictions regarding annealing multiple times although I don't recall if it's a single time or a different schedule as Dan suggested and I don't have my Stachiw book with me right now to check.? There is a rather obscure one sentence statement by Stachiw in his book in which he says any annealing is better than none.? This suggests to me that while adhering to the strict annealing schedule is ideal, if it cannot be met benefits will still be derived from a looser schedule. Jon On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 11:59:14 PM EST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, what you're proposing sounds totally logical to?me. However, I have asked Greg this very question in the past (whether we really have to anneal a viewport.) I'm not sure what the underlying causality is, but he has enough professional experience in the?field that I just take his word for it. "You need to re-anneal it whenever any machining has been done on a viewport." Annealing is pretty straight forward.? I'm currently working on forming acrylic headlight covers and windows for an antique car restoration. It's a new skill I'm trying to develop, so fortunately I'm not making anything safety-critical?like viewports. But one interesting detail is that Greg strongly recommended annealing even for this, because it'll make the covers and windows less likely to crack (there could be stresses caused by mounting screws or flying pebbles,?for instance.) He had two basic points he stressed for the things to last: 1) That not all acrylic was equal. The only one he will?use is "cell cast" acrylic, and he warned me emphatically to stay away from the cheap stuff which can be referred to as extruded or "continuous cast." I know this has not been mentioned on this thread, but I bring it up because it seems to be key information.2) Annealing Next time I speak to him, I'll ask about machining with light passes and coolant. Best,Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 21 07:07:49 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2024 12:07:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <1766342493.5906132.1734757308574@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> <929659790.2078015.1733926525930@mail.yahoo.com> <509219333.2357409.1733956976047@mail.yahoo.com> <1766342493.5906132.1734757308574@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1513691427.5932425.1734782869289@mail.yahoo.com> Alec, did you ask if there is a limit to how many times a window can be annealed ? ?I always keep my windows covered in transport and when parked outside.Hank On Friday, December 20, 2024 at 10:02:01 PM MST, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec, lots of great info there, thanks for updating us. Jon On Friday, December 20, 2024 at 05:19:11 PM EST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi friends, I just got a call from Greg, so took the opportunity to ask him about this question of whether or not to anneal the front viewport after machining it to the lower diameter. I was correct about "any time you machine, you anneal" being the proper thing to do, but he also confirmed that Kittredge never annealed his viewports (which were all tested to 500'). In his opinion, given the modest depths we operate at, we're fine without annealing. But what surprised me was the nature of the downside. He didn't think machined-but-not-annealed viewports would fail prematurely, but he said they would craze prematurely with exposed to the sun. What happens is that the machining?heats just a very thin layer of acrylic, at the surface. When you heat those molecules, they contract 2-3 percent, and that puts stress between the thin layer of surface molecules and the ones beneath. The crazing you see when acrylic has been exposed to the sun is cracks between the surface molecules and those below. If there is built in stress between those layers, then the UV-induced cracks appear much more easily. He also?reminded me of something else. Rick, when you pot the window, be sure to wipe off the excess Sikaflex, rather than cut it off with a razor. If you cut off the excess, there's a high chance of scoring the surface. That, particularly on the inside face of the window that is going to be under tension, is far more concerning than not annealing as far as affecting failure depth. Best,Alec On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 4:27?PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks Hank, I'll check it out. Rick On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 12:54?PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick,?I have a concern about using a sealant for your front port.? You mention that you welded up an o-ring groove and thats why you want to use a sealant.? If you did not have the seat machined after welding and smoothing the weld, then it may be distorted.? Using a sealant to make up for the distortion may be a bad idea.? The sealant is not going to transfer the load evenly to the seat, given the softness.? If that is the case, I would have it machined again, even if it means cutting the frame out.? That solves both problems.? Welding it back in would be a breeze for you.? Cut it out from the inside to avoid burning interior stuff.? I have built a wood bulk head in Gamma to protect the interior when I cut the front off.Hank On Wednesday, December 11, 2024 at 07:15:41 AM MST, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: We should perhaps seek some clarification from Greg if he's willing to guide us.? I had a conversation with him about Kittredge annealing and he told me Kittredge never annealed any of his viewports.?? Stachiw was pretty adamant about annealing in his book.? Like Hank, I do seem to recall some restrictions regarding annealing multiple times although I don't recall if it's a single time or a different schedule as Dan suggested and I don't have my Stachiw book with me right now to check.? There is a rather obscure one sentence statement by Stachiw in his book in which he says any annealing is better than none.? This suggests to me that while adhering to the strict annealing schedule is ideal, if it cannot be met benefits will still be derived from a looser schedule. Jon On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 11:59:14 PM EST, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, what you're proposing sounds totally logical to?me. However, I have asked Greg this very question in the past (whether we really have to anneal a viewport.) I'm not sure what the underlying causality is, but he has enough professional experience in the?field that I just take his word for it. "You need to re-anneal it whenever any machining has been done on a viewport." Annealing is pretty straight forward.? I'm currently working on forming acrylic headlight covers and windows for an antique car restoration. It's a new skill I'm trying to develop, so fortunately I'm not making anything safety-critical?like viewports. But one interesting detail is that Greg strongly recommended annealing even for this, because it'll make the covers and windows less likely to crack (there could be stresses caused by mounting screws or flying pebbles,?for instance.) He had two basic points he stressed for the things to last: 1) That not all acrylic was equal. The only one he will?use is "cell cast" acrylic, and he warned me emphatically to stay away from the cheap stuff which can be referred to as extruded or "continuous cast." I know this has not been mentioned on this thread, but I bring it up because it seems to be key information.2) Annealing Next time I speak to him, I'll ask about machining with light passes and coolant. Best,Alec _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 21 09:34:58 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2024 09:34:58 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Clearances In-Reply-To: <1513691427.5932425.1734782869289@mail.yahoo.com> References: <7E8FFBDC-E54B-44A1-AA53-8E5C33A9A73A@gmail.com> <530495047.1750211.1733855667337@mail.yahoo.com> <929659790.2078015.1733926525930@mail.yahoo.com> <509219333.2357409.1733956976047@mail.yahoo.com> <1766342493.5906132.1734757308574@mail.yahoo.com> <1513691427.5932425.1734782869289@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dang, I forgot that. Sorry! On Sat, Dec 21, 2024 at 7:08?AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Alec, did you ask if there is a limit to how many times a window can be > annealed ? I always keep my windows covered in transport and when parked > outside. > Hank > > On Friday, December 20, 2024 at 10:02:01 PM MST, Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Alec, lots of great info there, thanks for updating us. > > Jon > > > > On Friday, December 20, 2024 at 05:19:11 PM EST, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi friends, > > I just got a call from Greg, so took the opportunity to ask him about this > question of whether or not to anneal the front viewport after machining it > to the lower diameter. I was correct about "any time you machine, you > anneal" being the proper thing to do, but he also confirmed that Kittredge > never annealed his viewports (which were all tested to 500'). In his > opinion, given the modest depths we operate at, we're fine without > annealing. But what surprised me was the nature of the downside. He didn't > think machined-but-not-annealed viewports would fail prematurely, but he > said they would craze prematurely with exposed to the sun. What happens is > that the machining heats just a very thin layer of acrylic, at the surface. > When you heat those molecules, they contract 2-3 percent, and that puts > stress between the thin layer of surface molecules and the ones beneath. > The crazing you see when acrylic has been exposed to the sun is cracks > between the surface molecules and those below. If there is built in stress > between those layers, then the UV-induced cracks appear much more easily. > > He also reminded me of something else. Rick, when you pot the window, be > sure to wipe off the excess Sikaflex, rather than cut it off with a razor. > If you cut off the excess, there's a high chance of scoring the surface. > That, particularly on the inside face of the window that is going to be > under tension, is far more concerning than not annealing as far as > affecting failure depth. > > Best, > Alec > > On Thu, Dec 12, 2024 at 4:27?PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Thanks Hank, I'll check it out. > > Rick > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2024 at 12:54?PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Rick, > I have a concern about using a sealant for your front port. You mention > that you welded up an o-ring groove and thats why you want to use a > sealant. If you did not have the seat machined after welding and smoothing > the weld, then it may be distorted. Using a sealant to make up for the > distortion may be a bad idea. The sealant is not going to transfer the > load evenly to the seat, given the softness. If that is the case, I would > have it machined again, even if it means cutting the frame out. That > solves both problems. Welding it back in would be a breeze for you. Cut > it out from the inside to avoid burning interior stuff. I have built a > wood bulk head in Gamma to protect the interior when I cut the front off. > Hank > > On Wednesday, December 11, 2024 at 07:15:41 AM MST, Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > We should perhaps seek some clarification from Greg if he's willing to > guide us. I had a conversation with him about Kittredge annealing and he > told me Kittredge never annealed any of his viewports. > > Stachiw was pretty adamant about annealing in his book. Like Hank, I do > seem to recall some restrictions regarding annealing multiple times > although I don't recall if it's a single time or a different schedule as > Dan suggested and I don't have my Stachiw book with me right now to check. > There is a rather obscure one sentence statement by Stachiw in his book in > which he says any annealing is better than none. This suggests to me that > while adhering to the strict annealing schedule is ideal, if it cannot be > met benefits will still be derived from a looser schedule. > > Jon > > > > On Tuesday, December 10, 2024 at 11:59:14 PM EST, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, what you're proposing sounds totally logical to me. However, I have > asked Greg this very question in the past (whether we really have to anneal > a viewport.) I'm not sure what the underlying causality is, but he has > enough professional experience in the field that I just take his word for > it. "You need to re-anneal it whenever any machining has been done on a > viewport." Annealing is pretty straight forward. > > I'm currently working on forming acrylic headlight covers and windows for > an antique car restoration. It's a new skill I'm trying to develop, so > fortunately I'm not making anything safety-critical like viewports. But one > interesting detail is that Greg strongly recommended annealing even for > this, because it'll make the covers and windows less likely to crack (there > could be stresses caused by mounting screws or flying pebbles, for > instance.) He had two basic points he stressed for the things to last: > > 1) That not all acrylic was equal. The only one he will use is "cell cast" > acrylic, and he warned me emphatically to stay away from the cheap stuff > which can be referred to as extruded or "continuous cast." I know this has > not been mentioned on this thread, but I bring it up because it seems to be > key information. > 2) Annealing > > Next time I speak to him, I'll ask about machining with light passes and > coolant. > > Best, > Alec > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 24 17:13:41 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2024 22:13:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy Holidays References: <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854@mail.yahoo.com> Wishing everyone a safe and happy holiday! Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 24 19:55:18 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2024 19:55:18 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Jon ! Same to you :) On Tue, Dec 24, 2024, 6:00 PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Wishing everyone a safe and happy holiday! > > Jon > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Dec 24 20:14:46 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2024 15:14:46 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: References: <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Best wishes in the New Coming Year! On Tue, Dec 24, 2024 at 3:00?PM Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thanks Jon ! Same to you :) > > On Tue, Dec 24, 2024, 6:00 PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Wishing everyone a safe and happy holiday! >> >> Jon >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Dec 25 12:55:12 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2024 17:55:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: References: <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1151039974.6939904.1735149312855@mail.yahoo.com> Merry Christmas all. I'm a bit late as it is now boxing day morning in NZ. Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 at 2:17 pm, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 26 04:36:49 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2024 10:36:49 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: <1151039974.6939904.1735149312855@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854@mail.yahoo.com> <1151039974.6939904.1735149312855@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02d101db5779$b05f3350$111d99f0$@airesearch.nl> To All, To late for X-mas so I wish you all the best for 2025! To the Psubs webmaster: I can?t enter the site for security reasons. What could be the problem? Best regards, Emile Van: Personal_Submersibles Namens Alan James via Personal_Submersibles Verzonden: woensdag 25 december 2024 18:55 Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy Holidays Merry Christmas all. I'm a bit late as it is now boxing day morning in NZ. Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 at 2:17 pm, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Dec 26 14:18:07 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2024 14:18:07 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: <02d101db5779$b05f3350$111d99f0$@airesearch.nl> References: <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854@mail.yahoo.com> <1151039974.6939904.1735149312855@mail.yahoo.com> <02d101db5779$b05f3350$111d99f0$@airesearch.nl> Message-ID: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all! ~ Douglas S. On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 5:04?AM via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > To All, > > > > To late for X-mas so I wish you all the best for 2025! > > > > To the Psubs webmaster: I can?t enter the site for security reasons. What > could be the problem? > > > > Best regards, Emile > > > > *Van:* Personal_Submersibles *Namens > *Alan James via Personal_Submersibles > *Verzonden:* woensdag 25 december 2024 18:55 > *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy Holidays > > > > Merry Christmas all. I'm a bit late as it is now boxing day morning in NZ. > > Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer > > > > > On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 at 2:17 pm, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Dec 27 16:47:28 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 13:47:28 -0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy Holidays In-Reply-To: References: <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1832182493.6824041.1735078421854@mail.yahoo.com> <1151039974.6939904.1735149312855@mail.yahoo.com> <02d101db5779$b05f3350$111d99f0$@airesearch.nl> Message-ID: Happy Holidays Jon. Thanks for sharing the VAST sub images. David On Thu, Dec 26, 2024, 12:06?PM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all! ~ Douglas S. > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 5:04?AM via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> To All, >> >> >> >> To late for X-mas so I wish you all the best for 2025! >> >> >> >> To the Psubs webmaster: I can?t enter the site for security reasons. What >> could be the problem? >> >> >> >> Best regards, Emile >> >> >> >> *Van:* Personal_Submersibles *Namens >> *Alan James via Personal_Submersibles >> *Verzonden:* woensdag 25 december 2024 18:55 >> *Aan:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> *Onderwerp:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Happy Holidays >> >> >> >> Merry Christmas all. I'm a bit late as it is now boxing day morning in NZ. >> >> Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 at 2:17 pm, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Dec 28 17:09:30 2024 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2024 22:09:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Extending Operating Depth of MK101 without Pressure Compensation References: <418597700.7769028.1735423770508.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <418597700.7769028.1735423770508@mail.yahoo.com> At the 2024 PSUBS convention, Alec Smyth and Cliff Redus announced a modification for the Minn-Kota MK101 lower unit that significantly extends the operating depth of the motor WITHOUT pressure compensation.? For those who have been following the various issues that arise from both oil and air pressure compensation of motors, this is a huge technical step forward that completely obviates the need to pressure compensate for 99% of "psubber" class vessels.? Interestingly, the teams research has shown that submarines operating at 300 feet or less can almost assuredly use stock MK101's as 1-ATM units without any modifications at all. Alec and Cliff have provided two documents for review, an overview of the project as presented at the 2024 convention and a detailed testing report.? You can find those documents here: OVERVIEWhttp://www.psubs.org/community/projects/MK101/mk101modslides.pdf TEST REPORThttp://www.psubs.org/community/projects/MK101/mk101modrpt.pdf Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: