[PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site

Sat Jun 24 12:30:57 EDT 2023

 Vance,I work in a world where we take responsibility for our mistakes, the only hiding your head in the sand is from the classing societies.  I am not looking for someone to blame.   If you want to believe the passengers were properly for-warned, well that is where we disagree.  Actually, I have had my mind changed, and I do listen to reason.  Example, I was interested in both concrete (high performance)  and Carbon Fibre.  Sean talked me out of both, and was only one conversation on the matter.  I also jest did a lot of experimenting with Epoxy for submarine ports.  Testing was looking very good with thousands of cycles performed.  A conversation with an un-named expert in the field reached out to me and although he was intrigued, he thought I should stay away from the idea.  I dropped it for two reasons, one his advice and second, I was starting to get messages from wanna be sub builders asking  about it.  Hank    On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 10:09:06 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:  

 Sean raises a good point.  There is however a big difference.  Karl’s sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering guidelines.  My issue is not with being classed.  Classing a sub does not make it safer, it just proves it is safe.  The boiler plate waiver would apply and be sufficient in Karl’s case. Hank

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On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:03 AM, via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Hank,Your assumption that somebody-should-have-done-more is flawed. People will do what people will do. The idea that some nameless professional entity could have imposed its will on the free will of free citizens is just hide-your-head-in-the-sand bullshit. I get that you want someone or something to blame. Sadly, such a person does not exist. Not now, and not in the minute before Stockton and his crew were killed. Those people went adventuring. They did it with foreknowledge, because the adventure excited them, and the experience compelled them. And I for one wonder how it is that someone like you, who does EXACTLY the same thing from your home workshop, would think otherwise. Which is pretty much all I have to say on the matter from this point forward. I argued with Stockton, and that changed his mind exactly not one iota. Lesson learned. Does that sound familiar? It should. We are all thick skulled knuckle heads about our passions. Has anyone changed your opinion lately? I'm thinking not. Same here. 'Nuff said.,Vance

-----Original Message-----
From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Sat, Jun 24, 2023 10:09 am
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site

 Jon,Although I do agree with you that they were intelligent people, the waiver is not unlike what you would sign to go white water rafting.There was a false sense of security being the 12th dive or however many.  I am simply not satisfied that the powers that regulate this industry did enough.  I don't believe for a second the passengers understood what was going on with the hull.  The American Bureau Of Shipping is no small entity, and surely could have intervened and certainly found out the passenger list.  They are all running around saying "I told you so".  when they should be saying " I wish we did more".   Hank
    On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 07:49:56 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:  

  Hank, how do you find the passengers to warn them?  The waiver passengers signed identified the submarine as "an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death."  (see link below)  That's a pretty honest and open summary by Ocean Gate itself of what you're up against as a passenger.  If that didn't give the passengers pause what else could an "expert" have told them?  These were highly intelligent successful businessmen who could understand what "experimental" and "certified" meant relative to a submarine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RwftWrAeo

When trying to understand people's behavior we have to look at things as they were in the moment, not in the now with the benefit of retrospect.  For example, the MTS letter was penned in 2018.  In the subsequent five years time Ocean Gate had raised $18 million for Titan development and performed multiple dives on the Titanic successfully.  Up until June 18, 2023 anyone could have looked at MTS vs Ocean Gate and walked away believing the warnings were unwarranted.
I think the history and events leading up to the Titan loss is very complex and includes everything from investors, finances, performance, and deadlines; to egos.
Jon

    On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 05:22:16 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:  

 Marc, I do agree completely that if you want to get in a barrel and go over Niagara Falls, you should be allowed.  This is different because the paying passengers were Likely not told about the concerns and warnings from industry experts.  That is where my beef with experts lies, they could have done more to insure the passengers knew.  A strongly worded letter to the builder is a let down.  Hank 

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