[PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site

Fri Jun 23 14:36:11 EDT 2023

I wonder how concerned we should be about operators like Karl Stanley, who is similarly conducting commercial dives outside any regulatory framework, in a vessel which is technically ineligible for class due to departures from the society rules. Does he get a pass because of his safety record, or is there a line to be drawn somewhere?

Sean

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-------- Original Message --------
On Jun. 23, 2023, 12:21, via Personal_Submersibles wrote:

> Doug,
>
> Trying to apply logic here won't work. When I was co-chair of the manned underwater vehicle committee at the Marine Technology Society, our chairman Will Kohnen wrote what was essentially a letter of censure to OceanGate and Rush. I critiqued that letter and was one of the 38 signatories. Stockton Rush ignored that letter. Our opinion simply didn't suit him. He lumped us all into the bunch-of-50-year-old-white-guys category, and dismissed us out of hand. Of course, you can understand his skepticism. We only had collectively about a thousand years of experience and a jillion dives between us. So, what did we know?
>
> Vance
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 1:22 pm
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
>
> So the mysterious disappearance of the Titan submersible is no longer a mystery - she collapsed. But to me a vital question remains unanswered: why, after so many different entities raised concerns over the use of the carbon composite hull, did leadership forge ahead anyway? The fact that the CEO was aboard would seem to indicate he was confident in his hull, but why? Did he feel he knew better than all these other folks who raised concerns? If it were one or two people who disagreed, that would be one matter, but it would seem there's a list a mile long of those who raised serious safety concerns (including 'amateur builders' like Karl Stanley). Did any of the passengers on this voyage understand the highly controversial decision to build with carbon fiber? The highly experienced Frenchman who had logged so much time at Titanic was unconcerned? As Carsten points out, wouldn't the guy have been suspicious that there was no second submersible or at least ROV for mission redundancy?
>
> Alan, I totally understand the practicality of using off-the-shelf parts and components for non-critical applications, but as Alec suggests, it's a matter of optics. After this episode, when the USCG asks to take a look at one of our homebuilt submersibles and sees a game controller, what are they going to think of? Among the many tasteless jokes being tossed around online in the wake of this tragedy, one of the more G-rated ones went something like this: The only time 'homemade' and 'submarine' should be used in the same sentence is when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen! This is a PR disaster for the homebuilt submersible community. ~ Doug S.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:57 AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>> I agree. That's the bottom line.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>> On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ala
>> - the question is not which controller your sub has.
>> The question is how many paying Guest you have..
>> vbr Carsten
>>
>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
>> Datum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200
>> Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>
>> Hi Doug,
>> my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules.
>> All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck.
>> If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery.
>> Alan
>>
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>>
>>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles
>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
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