From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 1 07:31:01 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 12:31:01 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator Welds Message-ID: Hi All Any thoughts on this. I have always thought that welds for through hull fittings are not required to be full penetration. Just keep the hole as tight as possible to the fitting. Ive been talking to some people who say that the joints should be full pen. Obviously full pen is best, but has issues with accessibility and warping. On Jodie B i just welded all the penetrators in with a double fillet as i believe was shown in the plans. Gamma plans show a "mostly" full pen weld for one of their penetrators. See pic. I am thinking of putting a 30mm diameter penetrator through the 25mm conning tower base. This is a bit of a monster to get full pen. What do you guys think? Anyone put a penetrator through such thick material before? Any views on penetration of small welded fittings? [image: image.png] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 461687 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 1 21:40:05 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 01:40:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator Welds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1836591763.5777020.1685670005013@mail.yahoo.com> Reviewing ABS or ASME steel vessel rules may shed some light on the issue.? My understanding is that anything two inches or less requires only fillet welds.? The rule may actually be a ratio to the hull diameter rather than a specific number, however I do believe your 30mm penetrator is perfectly safe with fillet welds. Jon On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 09:39:45 AM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All Any thoughts on this.? I have always thought that welds for through hull fittings are not required to be full penetration.? Just keep the hole as tight as possible to the fitting. Ive been talking to some people who say that the joints should be full pen. Obviously full pen is best, but has issues with accessibility and warping. On Jodie B i just welded all the penetrators in with a double fillet as i believe was shown in the plans. Gamma plans show a "mostly" full pen weld for one of their penetrators.? See pic. I am thinking of putting a 30mm diameter penetrator through the 25mm conning tower base.? This is a bit of a monster to get full pen. What do you guys think?? Anyone put a penetrator through such thick material before? Any views on penetration of small welded fittings? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 1 22:29:09 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 19:29:09 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources Message-ID: Reading Busby and his discussion on the pros and cons of the battery types available at time of publication: Is there sufficient data as folks move forward in new sub designs re: newer battery types- Specifically Li ion? I?m guessing that given the safety hazards there aren?t sufficient advantages to using- lead acid batteries seem to serve the majority of desired profiles. Is this something that?s changing, or do folks expect to continue using old school batteries? Thanks for thoughts and history, John From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 07:27:44 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 12:27:44 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator Welds In-Reply-To: <1836591763.5777020.1685670005013@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1836591763.5777020.1685670005013@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jon Ive scoured ABS and i cant see anything specific about it. Im sure its there somewhere, i just cant find it. Ive just re-read my email and it might have been confusing. I do mean small penetrators, not large penetrations such as viewports. Obviously they must be 100% pen. Anyone else got any ideas? Thanks On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 02:41, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Reviewing ABS or ASME steel vessel rules may shed some light on the > issue. My understanding is that anything two inches or less requires only > fillet welds. The rule may actually be a ratio to the hull diameter rather > than a specific number, however I do believe your 30mm penetrator is > perfectly safe with fillet welds. > > Jon > > > > On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 09:39:45 AM EDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All > > Any thoughts on this. I have always thought that welds for through hull > fittings are not required to be full penetration. Just keep the hole as > tight as possible to the fitting. > > Ive been talking to some people who say that the joints should be full pen. > > Obviously full pen is best, but has issues with accessibility and warping. > > On Jodie B i just welded all the penetrators in with a double fillet as i > believe was shown in the plans. > > Gamma plans show a "mostly" full pen weld for one of their penetrators. > See pic. > > I am thinking of putting a 30mm diameter penetrator through the 25mm > conning tower base. This is a bit of a monster to get full pen. > > What do you guys think? Anyone put a penetrator through such thick > material before? > > Any views on penetration of small welded fittings? > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 07:53:51 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 11:53:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator Welds In-Reply-To: References: <1836591763.5777020.1685670005013@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1773978001.3104206.1685706831378@mail.yahoo.com> >From PVHO: 5.4.4?All the weld joints within plating and shell cut-out attachments are to be full penetration type with suitable groove/bevel. Penetrations into the shell are to be attached by full penetration groove and fillet weld. The leg length of the fillet should not be the less than the smaller of the thickness of the two parts being joined or as recommended by the applicable code. Vance -----Original Message----- From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jun 2, 2023 7:27 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator Welds Hi JonIve scoured ABS and i cant see anything specific about it.? Im sure its there somewhere, i just cant find it. Ive just re-read my email and it might have been confusing.? I do mean small penetrators, not large penetrations such as viewports.? Obviously they must be 100% pen. Anyone else got any ideas? Thanks On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 02:41, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Reviewing ABS or ASME steel vessel rules may shed some light on the issue.? My understanding is that anything two inches or less requires only fillet welds.? The rule may actually be a ratio to the hull diameter rather than a specific number, however I do believe your 30mm penetrator is perfectly safe with fillet welds. Jon On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 09:39:45 AM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All Any thoughts on this.? I have always thought that welds for through hull fittings are not required to be full penetration.? Just keep the hole as tight as possible to the fitting. Ive been talking to some people who say that the joints should be full pen. Obviously full pen is best, but has issues with accessibility and warping. On Jodie B i just welded all the penetrators in with a double fillet as i believe was shown in the plans. Gamma plans show a "mostly" full pen weld for one of their penetrators.? See pic. I am thinking of putting a 30mm diameter penetrator through the 25mm conning tower base.? This is a bit of a monster to get full pen. What do you guys think?? Anyone put a penetrator through such thick material before? Any views on penetration of small welded fittings? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 08:01:13 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 14:01:13 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator Welds In-Reply-To: References: <1836591763.5777020.1685670005013@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello James Pretty sure it should be full pen in most rules. But if the location of your hole in the conning tower does not contribute to the structural reinforcement of the opening that your conning tower is making in the hull?s main cylinder, (Ie is far enough from the hull?s main cylinder), Then you may just thread your hole and just insert a male threaded tapered through hull into it with some loctite but without any extra weld. I did exactly that on Pilot Fish for the ballast purge valve controls. Regards Antoine Le ven. 2 juin 2023 ? 13:38, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> a ?crit : > Hi Jon > Ive scoured ABS and i cant see anything specific about it. Im sure its > there somewhere, i just cant find it. > > Ive just re-read my email and it might have been confusing. I do mean > small penetrators, not large penetrations such as viewports. Obviously > they must be 100% pen. > > Anyone else got any ideas? > Thanks > > > > On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 02:41, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Reviewing ABS or ASME steel vessel rules may shed some light on the >> issue. My understanding is that anything two inches or less requires only >> fillet welds. The rule may actually be a ratio to the hull diameter rather >> than a specific number, however I do believe your 30mm penetrator is >> perfectly safe with fillet welds. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 09:39:45 AM EDT, James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi All >> >> Any thoughts on this. I have always thought that welds for through hull >> fittings are not required to be full penetration. Just keep the hole as >> tight as possible to the fitting. >> >> Ive been talking to some people who say that the joints should be full >> pen. >> >> Obviously full pen is best, but has issues with accessibility and warping. >> >> On Jodie B i just welded all the penetrators in with a double fillet as i >> believe was shown in the plans. >> >> Gamma plans show a "mostly" full pen weld for one of their penetrators. >> See pic. >> >> I am thinking of putting a 30mm diameter penetrator through the 25mm >> conning tower base. This is a bit of a monster to get full pen. >> >> What do you guys think? Anyone put a penetrator through such thick >> material before? >> >> Any views on penetration of small welded fittings? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 08:34:04 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (J. Foulkes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 08:34:04 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think this largely depends on the application for the batteries and mounting considerations. I don't have my copy of Busby immediately available, but I remember a lot of that discussion falling into the, "just enough to be dangerous" category. If you want good references for new research in this specific area the IEEE PES and VTS societies are very good references. On the whole you may find that a stratified architecture is best, but the general trend in applications like submarines is to achieve high thermal efficiency and prioritize specific power over specific energy. These considerations generally result in the selection of a supercapacitor (or ultracapacitor). If you need to achieve equivalent slow discharge rates you would just use a buck regulator. I think in this case you have to really ask a couple questions first: - How long do you want to run fully submerged? - How much do you want to spend? - What is your maximum dry weight or LDT? - What is your maximum or minimum current draw? The answers to these will be able to determine whether it makes sense to use conventional batteries or supercapacitors. Cost is really one of the biggest factors though, many systems that are built for long term sustainability are starting to center around stratified approaches using electrochemical fuel cells for the energy density and supercapacitors for the power density. Often these two can be balanced such that you achieve overall SWaP metrics ahead of any conventional battery. Regards, James On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 10:30?PM John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Reading Busby and his discussion on the pros and cons of the battery types > available at time of publication: > > Is there sufficient data as folks move forward in new sub designs re: > newer battery types- Specifically Li ion? > I?m guessing that given the safety hazards there aren?t sufficient > advantages to using- lead acid batteries seem to serve the majority of > desired profiles. > > Is this something that?s changing, or do folks expect to continue using > old school batteries? > > Thanks for thoughts and history, > John > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 08:51:24 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 08:51:24 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator Welds In-Reply-To: References: <1836591763.5777020.1685670005013@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi James, I've always applied the same rule, forgoing full penetration for things that are no larger than 2", but I'm afraid I can't recall where I got that rule! Best, Alec On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:38?AM James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Jon > Ive scoured ABS and i cant see anything specific about it. Im sure its > there somewhere, i just cant find it. > > Ive just re-read my email and it might have been confusing. I do mean > small penetrators, not large penetrations such as viewports. Obviously > they must be 100% pen. > > Anyone else got any ideas? > Thanks > > > > On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 02:41, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Reviewing ABS or ASME steel vessel rules may shed some light on the >> issue. My understanding is that anything two inches or less requires only >> fillet welds. The rule may actually be a ratio to the hull diameter rather >> than a specific number, however I do believe your 30mm penetrator is >> perfectly safe with fillet welds. >> >> Jon >> >> >> >> On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 09:39:45 AM EDT, James Frankland via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hi All >> >> Any thoughts on this. I have always thought that welds for through hull >> fittings are not required to be full penetration. Just keep the hole as >> tight as possible to the fitting. >> >> Ive been talking to some people who say that the joints should be full >> pen. >> >> Obviously full pen is best, but has issues with accessibility and warping. >> >> On Jodie B i just welded all the penetrators in with a double fillet as i >> believe was shown in the plans. >> >> Gamma plans show a "mostly" full pen weld for one of their penetrators. >> See pic. >> >> I am thinking of putting a 30mm diameter penetrator through the 25mm >> conning tower base. This is a bit of a monster to get full pen. >> >> What do you guys think? Anyone put a penetrator through such thick >> material before? >> >> Any views on penetration of small welded fittings? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 08:56:25 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 06:56:25 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator Welds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30175643-26F7-49C4-A42A-FAE43FDEEA1C@yahoo.ca> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 09:00:57 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 07:00:57 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DF3781E-075F-48F7-8E4B-A4FFA7A7B856@yahoo.ca> Jon, for me personally, Li is the way to go if weight is a concern. If cost is a factor and weight is not an issue, then AGM is fine. I think However that the cost gap is closing per useable ah hr Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 1, 2023, at 8:29 PM, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ?Reading Busby and his discussion on the pros and cons of the battery types available at time of publication: > > Is there sufficient data as folks move forward in new sub designs re: newer battery types- Specifically Li ion? > I?m guessing that given the safety hazards there aren?t sufficient advantages to using- lead acid batteries seem to serve the majority of desired profiles. > > Is this something that?s changing, or do folks expect to continue using old school batteries? > > Thanks for thoughts and history, > John > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 09:07:56 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 13:07:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <423259445.760657.1685711276818@mail.yahoo.com> My experience is that most Psubbers continue to use AGM but are exploring the possibility of switching to LiFePO4.? I know a while back Hank Pronk posted that he had switched to?LiFePO4 for the E3000. For the R400 which is currently being fabricated, I have switched to?LiFePO4.? specifically,?https://vestwoods.store/products/vestwoods-smart-12v-100ah-lifepo4-lithium-rechargeable-battery-bluetooth-monitoring-app-soc-data-4500-cycles-1-28kwh-100a-bms-low-temp-cut-off-ip65-replacement-for-rv-solar-marine-golf-cart.? I will use 12 of these modules. While most psubs need a lot of lead ballast to submerge, having a lighter battery (also higher energy density) does not help in that you would just have to add more lead ballast to compensate for the loss of AGM battery weight.? One of the reasons I switched for the R400 was increased CB-CG spread over AGM which makes a small boat more stable.? In other words, I still have to add ballast, but I can place the ballast lower in the boat due to higher density of lead.? This battery has a lot of nice features including a group 27 form factor, 40% of weight of same capacity group 27 AGM battery. Also, the prices have really come down on these?LiFePO4 batteries with lots of different suppliers, most out of China. ?For the R400, I am configuring each battery pod as 3S2P at a nominal voltage of 36V.? While?LiFePO4 have a much better safety record on fires due to their battery chemistry and smart chargers that keep you from overcharging, if I do get a fire in one of the pods, it's self-contained.? Also, the pods cap would just unseat to vent pressure.? I have three of these in my shop and I am playing with them.? So far so good.? One of the nice features on this battery is that it set up for Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE).? I am currently trying to hack the battery so that I can get my PLC to talk to each battery in the bank and get details such as SOC, voltage, temperature etc.? They do provide an iPhone/Android app that lets you interrogate each battery.?? So?LiFePO4 for psubs is an experiment for me.? I will let you know how it works out when I get the boat operational.? I also would be interested in others experience with lithium batteries. Cliff On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 09:30:23 PM CDT, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Reading Busby and his discussion on the pros and cons of the battery types available at time of publication: Is there sufficient data as folks move forward in new sub designs re: newer battery types- Specifically Li ion?? I?m guessing that given the safety hazards there aren?t sufficient advantages to using- lead acid batteries seem to serve the majority of desired profiles. Is this something that?s changing, or do folks expect to continue using old school batteries?? Thanks for thoughts and history, John _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 09:48:49 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (J. Foulkes via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 09:48:49 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: <4DF3781E-075F-48F7-8E4B-A4FFA7A7B856@yahoo.ca> References: <4DF3781E-075F-48F7-8E4B-A4FFA7A7B856@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: I still don't think that is a fair representation. The Li topology Jon asked about was Li-ion. If weight is the single greatest factor then LiPo would be the hands down winner, one of the greatest problems with Li is the recharge cycles. LCO relative to other types is still pretty low for the cost. You would honestly be far better off going with something like LTO for the efficiency or NiMH for the price. The only argument for SLA (AGM) over something like NiMH is voltage sag, but that sort of discharge rate can be handled with additional circuitry that still doesn't get anywhere near the future cost of an SLA based system. On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 9:02?AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Jon, for me personally, Li is the way to go if weight is a concern. If > cost is a factor and weight is not an issue, then AGM is fine. I think > However that the cost gap is closing per useable ah hr > Hank > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jun 1, 2023, at 8:29 PM, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > ?Reading Busby and his discussion on the pros and cons of the battery > types available at time of publication: > > > > Is there sufficient data as folks move forward in new sub designs re: > newer battery types- Specifically Li ion? > > I?m guessing that given the safety hazards there aren?t sufficient > advantages to using- lead acid batteries seem to serve the majority of > desired profiles. > > > > Is this something that?s changing, or do folks expect to continue using > old school batteries? > > > > Thanks for thoughts and history, > > John > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 14:12:07 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 14:12:07 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: <4DF3781E-075F-48F7-8E4B-A4FFA7A7B856@yahoo.ca> References: <4DF3781E-075F-48F7-8E4B-A4FFA7A7B856@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: I'm actually in the middle of researching this, as I need to replace my batteries. If I were going through this exercise with my previous sub (a K250,) then a small lightweight battery would have been fantastic, because the batteries were in the cabin where space is at a premium. If I were designing a new sub, I'd probably go that route too, and forget about making battery pods. But in my existing one, I rely on battery weight for stability (500 plus pounds, nice and low in pods). The storage capacity of the AGMs is more than ample. If I replaced them with lightweight batteries, I'd have to stuff the rest of the battery pods space with lead that doesn't add any value. So to summarize, I'd say that for new construction it would be new tech, but for existing construction it just depends on the specific design. Best, Alec On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 9:02?AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Jon, for me personally, Li is the way to go if weight is a concern. If > cost is a factor and weight is not an issue, then AGM is fine. I think > However that the cost gap is closing per useable ah hr > Hank > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jun 1, 2023, at 8:29 PM, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > > ?Reading Busby and his discussion on the pros and cons of the battery > types available at time of publication: > > > > Is there sufficient data as folks move forward in new sub designs re: > newer battery types- Specifically Li ion? > > I?m guessing that given the safety hazards there aren?t sufficient > advantages to using- lead acid batteries seem to serve the majority of > desired profiles. > > > > Is this something that?s changing, or do folks expect to continue using > old school batteries? > > > > Thanks for thoughts and history, > > John > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 16:48:59 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 20:48:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <406225367.6216704.1685738939883@mail.yahoo.com> Hi John,I believe Nuytco switched to lithium iron years ago.I am not sure what kind but life po4 batteries tend to be used as they are the safer technology.There are new battery technologies (lithium sulphur) in the future that will have 4 x the energy density of current lithium iron batteries.These may be out in 2 years.I wouldnt worry about lead acid batteries being heavier & lowering your cg as for one, they are nowhere near as heavy as a solid block of lead & if you replace your lead acid batteries with lithium you can add lead down lower to give you even more stability.A Californian firm, I think West Coast Electrical, were making lithium battery packs for underwater use & had certification for them. They started doing this about 8 years ago.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 2:38 pm, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Reading Busby and his discussion on the pros and cons of the battery types available at time of publication: Is there sufficient data as folks move forward in new sub designs re: newer battery types- Specifically Li ion?? I?m guessing that given the safety hazards there aren?t sufficient advantages to using- lead acid batteries seem to serve the majority of desired profiles. Is this something that?s changing, or do folks expect to continue using old school batteries?? Thanks for thoughts and history, John _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 19:28:25 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 23:28:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator Welds In-Reply-To: References: <1836591763.5777020.1685670005013@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1528389016.6263919.1685748505131@mail.yahoo.com> For what its worth, Kittredge shows fillet welds on all small penetrators up to 2-inch diameter in the K350 plans. Jon On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 07:39:27 AM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi JonIve scoured ABS and i cant see anything specific about it.? Im sure its there somewhere, i just cant find it. Ive just re-read my email and it might have been confusing.? I do mean small penetrators, not large penetrations such as viewports.? Obviously they must be 100% pen. Anyone else got any ideas? Thanks On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 02:41, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Reviewing ABS or ASME steel vessel rules may shed some light on the issue.? My understanding is that anything two inches or less requires only fillet welds.? The rule may actually be a ratio to the hull diameter rather than a specific number, however I do believe your 30mm penetrator is perfectly safe with fillet welds. Jon On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 09:39:45 AM EDT, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi All Any thoughts on this.? I have always thought that welds for through hull fittings are not required to be full penetration.? Just keep the hole as tight as possible to the fitting. Ive been talking to some people who say that the joints should be full pen. Obviously full pen is best, but has issues with accessibility and warping. On Jodie B i just welded all the penetrators in with a double fillet as i believe was shown in the plans. Gamma plans show a "mostly" full pen weld for one of their penetrators.? See pic. I am thinking of putting a 30mm diameter penetrator through the 25mm conning tower base.? This is a bit of a monster to get full pen. What do you guys think?? Anyone put a penetrator through such thick material before? Any views on penetration of small welded fittings? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 19:37:18 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 23:37:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1118736895.6261091.1685749038299@mail.yahoo.com> Lithium-ion, no.? LiFePO, yes.? If sodium batteries ever make it to market at a reasonable price I would choose those, but in today's market you couldn't convince me to go with anything but LiFePO. Jon On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 10:38:46 PM EDT, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Reading Busby and his discussion on the pros and cons of the battery types available at time of publication: Is there sufficient data as folks move forward in new sub designs re: newer battery types- Specifically Li ion?? I?m guessing that given the safety hazards there aren?t sufficient advantages to using- lead acid batteries seem to serve the majority of desired profiles. Is this something that?s changing, or do folks expect to continue using old school batteries?? Thanks for thoughts and history, John _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 2 19:59:25 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 23:59:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: <1118736895.6261091.1685749038299@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1118736895.6261091.1685749038299@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1011125137.623538.1685750365353@mail.yahoo.com> Wiki has a good summary of where we are up to with lithium sulphur batteries under "Commercialization".Drexel University had a battery that didn't degrade over 4000 cycles, which was in part a fluke & they were researching why it happened & how they could repeat it.Alan Lithium?sulfur battery - Wikipedia | | | | | | | | | | | Lithium?sulfur battery - Wikipedia Lithium?sulfur batteries may displace lithium-ion cells because of their higher energy density and reduced cost. This is due to the use of sulfur instead of cobalt, a common element in lithium-ion batteries.[4] Li?S batteries offer specific energies | | | | Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, 3 Jun 2023 at 11:38 am, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 3 22:51:59 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 22:51:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: <406225367.6216704.1685738939883@mail.yahoo.com> References: <406225367.6216704.1685738939883@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <80c65803-99f2-bf63-f596-47a676d540dc@ohiohills.com> I was sent some /Waterways World/ magazines from 2020, a couple of years ago.? There are advertisements for electric power systems for canal boats.? They start with diesels tied to generators tied to batteries that drive 48VDC motors.? There appear to be versions that have no diesels involved, and the batteries are recharged from shore power.? In the UK, that's 230VAC. If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the magazines and make a list of the websites. Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 5 06:32:41 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2023 11:32:41 +0100 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Penetrator Welds In-Reply-To: <1528389016.6263919.1685748505131@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1836591763.5777020.1685670005013@mail.yahoo.com> <1528389016.6263919.1685748505131@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the advice all. Im thinking about what to do. I might have a practice on some scrap to see how much i can penetrate. Many thanks James On Sat, 3 Jun 2023 at 00:29, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > For what its worth, Kittredge shows fillet welds on all small penetrators > up to 2-inch diameter in the K350 plans. > > Jon > > > > > On Friday, June 2, 2023 at 07:39:27 AM EDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Jon > Ive scoured ABS and i cant see anything specific about it. Im sure its > there somewhere, i just cant find it. > > Ive just re-read my email and it might have been confusing. I do mean > small penetrators, not large penetrations such as viewports. Obviously > they must be 100% pen. > > Anyone else got any ideas? > Thanks > > > > On Fri, 2 Jun 2023 at 02:41, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Reviewing ABS or ASME steel vessel rules may shed some light on the > issue. My understanding is that anything two inches or less requires only > fillet welds. The rule may actually be a ratio to the hull diameter rather > than a specific number, however I do believe your 30mm penetrator is > perfectly safe with fillet welds. > > Jon > > > > On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 09:39:45 AM EDT, James Frankland via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi All > > Any thoughts on this. I have always thought that welds for through hull > fittings are not required to be full penetration. Just keep the hole as > tight as possible to the fitting. > > Ive been talking to some people who say that the joints should be full pen. > > Obviously full pen is best, but has issues with accessibility and warping. > > On Jodie B i just welded all the penetrators in with a double fillet as i > believe was shown in the plans. > > Gamma plans show a "mostly" full pen weld for one of their penetrators. > See pic. > > I am thinking of putting a 30mm diameter penetrator through the 25mm > conning tower base. This is a bit of a monster to get full pen. > > What do you guys think? Anyone put a penetrator through such thick > material before? > > Any views on penetration of small welded fittings? > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 16 12:53:07 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 09:53:07 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: <80c65803-99f2-bf63-f596-47a676d540dc@ohiohills.com> References: <406225367.6216704.1685738939883@mail.yahoo.com> <80c65803-99f2-bf63-f596-47a676d540dc@ohiohills.com> Message-ID: <77884AC9-1F76-4FC9-8143-03CEAA8B9493@gmail.com> Grateful for all the info here. While I was vague and only stated ?Li ion? I definitely have no fixed start point, so this is all good to learn about. And certainly echo Busby that one needs to consider weight for ballast purposes as well. I?ve spent most of my life around airplanes, so a slightly different approach to weight reveals itself, though CG management is a common theme here. Thanks to all for the info and discussion. > On Jun 3, 2023, at 7:51 PM, Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I was sent some Waterways World magazines from 2020, a couple of years ago. There are advertisements for electric power systems for canal boats. They start with diesels tied to generators tied to batteries that drive 48VDC motors. There appear to be versions that have no diesels involved, and the batteries are recharged from shore power. In the UK, that's 230VAC. > > If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the magazines and make a list of the websites. > > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 16 13:55:42 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2023 07:55:42 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: <77884AC9-1F76-4FC9-8143-03CEAA8B9493@gmail.com> References: <406225367.6216704.1685738939883@mail.yahoo.com> <80c65803-99f2-bf63-f596-47a676d540dc@ohiohills.com> <77884AC9-1F76-4FC9-8143-03CEAA8B9493@gmail.com> Message-ID: I had some difficulty in inserting my batteries the other day into the pods because of how close the battery lugs were to the wall of the pod. I had built an aluminum tray for the batteries to make it easy to install and remove them for maintenance and used 1/4" aluminum flat bar to fabricate them but I had to do away with the trays because of clearance issues and so even though that only bought me a 1/4" of an inch, I needed all the help I could get. It also helped in having the battery cables slide over the tops of the fill caps more easily when attached to the all thread that passes the power into the sub as they flex and bend when pushing it in after attaching. Anyone else that is building a K-350 have that same problem? I welded two pieces of SS angle in the pods for the trays to slide on and can't remove them and lower them as they were put in before I welded the ends on. As they go down, they come together being pipe so I couldn't of gone much lower with them and still have the horizontal room to fit the batteries. I also wanted to buy a couple of Psubs stickers that I have seen on other peoples boats and tried to do that on our web site but I didn't have any luck finding the store that would have them for sale. Any ideas? Rick On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 7:20?AM John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Grateful for all the info here. While I was vague and only stated ?Li > ion? I definitely have no fixed start point, so this is all good to learn > about. And certainly echo Busby that one needs to consider weight for > ballast purposes as well. I?ve spent most of my life around airplanes, so > a slightly different approach to weight reveals itself, though CG > management is a common theme here. > > Thanks to all for the info and discussion. > > On Jun 3, 2023, at 7:51 PM, Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I was sent some *Waterways World* magazines from 2020, a couple of years > ago. There are advertisements for electric power systems for canal boats. > They start with diesels tied to generators tied to batteries that drive > 48VDC motors. There appear to be versions that have no diesels involved, > and the batteries are recharged from shore power. In the UK, that's 230VAC. > > If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the magazines and make a list of the > websites. > > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 18 10:03:58 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 14:03:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: References: <406225367.6216704.1685738939883@mail.yahoo.com> <80c65803-99f2-bf63-f596-47a676d540dc@ohiohills.com> <77884AC9-1F76-4FC9-8143-03CEAA8B9493@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513153257.1552945.1687097038899@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, this is the primary reason I am switching to DIY lifepo batteries. ?The K-boat battery pods make dealing with standard batteries difficult especially given their weight. ?When I was with Dan Lance earlier this year he had a battery that did fit but only without the removable tray in the plans. ? I can send you stickers. ?I?m out of town until mid week so will contact you then.? Jon On Friday, June 16, 2023 at 02:29:59 PM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I had some difficulty?in inserting?my batteries the other day into the pods because of how close the battery lugs were to the wall of the pod. I had built an aluminum?tray for the batteries to make it easy to install and remove them for maintenance?and used 1/4" aluminum flat bar to fabricate them but I had to do away with the trays?because?of clearance issues and so even though that only bought me a 1/4" of an inch, I needed all the help I could get. It also helped in having the battery cables slide over the tops of the fill caps more easily when attached to the all thread that passes the power into the sub as they flex and bend when pushing it in after attaching.? Anyone else that is building a K-350 have that same problem? I welded two pieces of SS angle in the pods for the trays to slide on and can't remove them and lower them as they were put in before I welded the ends on. As they go down, they come together being pipe so I couldn't of gone much lower with them and still have the horizontal room to fit the batteries.? I also wanted to buy a couple of Psubs stickers that I have seen on other peoples boats and tried to do that on our web site?but I didn't have any luck finding the store that would have them for sale. Any ideas? Rick On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 7:20?AM John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Grateful for all the info here.? While I was vague and only stated ?Li ion? I definitely have no fixed start point, so this is all good to learn about.? And certainly echo Busby that one needs to consider weight for ballast purposes as well.? I?ve spent most of my life around airplanes, so a slightly different approach to weight reveals itself, though CG management is a common theme here. Thanks to all for the info and discussion. On Jun 3, 2023, at 7:51 PM, Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I was sent some Waterways World magazines from 2020, a couple of years ago.? There are advertisements for electric power systems for canal boats.? They start with diesels tied to generators tied to batteries that drive 48VDC motors.? There appear to be versions that have no diesels involved, and the batteries are recharged from shore power.? In the UK, that's 230VAC. If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the magazines and make a list of the websites. Mike _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 18 13:46:09 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 07:46:09 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: <513153257.1552945.1687097038899@mail.yahoo.com> References: <406225367.6216704.1685738939883@mail.yahoo.com> <80c65803-99f2-bf63-f596-47a676d540dc@ohiohills.com> <77884AC9-1F76-4FC9-8143-03CEAA8B9493@gmail.com> <513153257.1552945.1687097038899@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Jon How do I pay for the stickers? What are the dimensions and weight of the Lifepro batteries and are you still using 4 per pod? Sounds like they are lighter? if so, how did you compensate for the weight difference? What were the costs of each? Rick On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 4:04?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Rick, this is the primary reason I am switching to DIY lifepo batteries. > The K-boat battery pods make dealing with standard batteries difficult > especially given their weight. When I was with Dan Lance earlier this year > he had a battery that did fit but only without the removable tray in the > plans. > > I can send you stickers. I?m out of town until mid week so will contact > you then. > > Jon > > > > On Friday, June 16, 2023 at 02:29:59 PM EDT, Rick Patton via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I had some difficulty in inserting my batteries the other day into the > pods because of how close the battery lugs were to the wall of the pod. I > had built an aluminum tray for the batteries to make it easy to install and > remove them for maintenance and used 1/4" aluminum flat bar to fabricate > them but I had to do away with the trays because of clearance issues and so > even though that only bought me a 1/4" of an inch, I needed all the help I > could get. It also helped in having the battery cables slide over the tops > of the fill caps more easily when attached to the all thread that passes > the power into the sub as they flex and bend when pushing it in after > attaching. > > Anyone else that is building a K-350 have that same problem? I welded two > pieces of SS angle in the pods for the trays to slide on and can't remove > them and lower them as they were put in before I welded the ends on. As > they go down, they come together being pipe so I couldn't of gone much > lower with them and still have the horizontal room to fit the batteries. > > I also wanted to buy a couple of Psubs stickers that I have seen on other > peoples boats and tried to do that on our web site but I didn't have any > luck finding the store that would have them for sale. Any ideas? > > Rick > > > On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 7:20?AM John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Grateful for all the info here. While I was vague and only stated ?Li > ion? I definitely have no fixed start point, so this is all good to learn > about. And certainly echo Busby that one needs to consider weight for > ballast purposes as well. I?ve spent most of my life around airplanes, so > a slightly different approach to weight reveals itself, though CG > management is a common theme here. > > Thanks to all for the info and discussion. > > On Jun 3, 2023, at 7:51 PM, Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > I was sent some *Waterways World* magazines from 2020, a couple of years > ago. There are advertisements for electric power systems for canal boats. > They start with diesels tied to generators tied to batteries that drive > 48VDC motors. There appear to be versions that have no diesels involved, > and the batteries are recharged from shore power. In the UK, that's 230VAC. > > If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the magazines and make a list of the > websites. > > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 18 15:23:29 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 19:23:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: References: <406225367.6216704.1685738939883@mail.yahoo.com> <80c65803-99f2-bf63-f596-47a676d540dc@ohiohills.com> <77884AC9-1F76-4FC9-8143-03CEAA8B9493@gmail.com> <513153257.1552945.1687097038899@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1918576523.1606849.1687116209846@mail.yahoo.com> Rick, you could probably use the curved floor of the battery pod as a mold for pouring the led into in short sections that fit in the void under the batteries & shunt them down into the pod.? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 at 5:49 am, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 18 15:32:10 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 19:32:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: References: <406225367.6216704.1685738939883@mail.yahoo.com> <80c65803-99f2-bf63-f596-47a676d540dc@ohiohills.com> <77884AC9-1F76-4FC9-8143-03CEAA8B9493@gmail.com> <513153257.1552945.1687097038899@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <382104521.1630378.1687116730408@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Rick, this is part 2, hit send by mistake. Small phone big fingers. The weight of lead on its own under the batteries could quite possibly compensate for the difference in weight between the life po4 batteries & the lead acid batteries, and make your centre of gravity lower.Cheers Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 at 5:49 am, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 18 17:05:47 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:05:47 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: <382104521.1630378.1687116730408@mail.yahoo.com> References: <406225367.6216704.1685738939883@mail.yahoo.com> <80c65803-99f2-bf63-f596-47a676d540dc@ohiohills.com> <77884AC9-1F76-4FC9-8143-03CEAA8B9493@gmail.com> <513153257.1552945.1687097038899@mail.yahoo.com> <382104521.1630378.1687116730408@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks Alan, that is what I would do if I went that route, any idea what the lifepro batteries cost? I just shelled out $1,400 for my 8 led acid batteries that I finally got to fit into the pods which was quite a job. As you probably know, when you are building a sub, everyone that knows about it asks "so when will it be done?" and I stopped trying to give them an answer because some jobs like the batteries that you think will go fast, ending up taking way longer than expected. Rick On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 9:32?AM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Rick, this is part 2, hit send by mistake. Small phone big fingers. The > weight of lead on its own under the batteries could quite possibly > compensate for the difference in weight between the life po4 batteries & > the lead acid batteries, and make your centre of gravity lower. > Cheers Alan > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 at 5:49 am, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 03:30:40 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 07:30:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: References: <406225367.6216704.1685738939883@mail.yahoo.com> <80c65803-99f2-bf63-f596-47a676d540dc@ohiohills.com> <77884AC9-1F76-4FC9-8143-03CEAA8B9493@gmail.com> <513153257.1552945.1687097038899@mail.yahoo.com> <382104521.1630378.1687116730408@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <402607032.1768896.1687159840679@mail.yahoo.com> Rick,?I am the last person you should talk to about projects being over time. Some things that you think will take days take months.I am not sure of the cost of lifepo4 batteries. I have looked at comparisons regarding depth of discharge & cycle times & seen that they are a comparative price when all things are considered.?However I am waiting for the next generation of batteries to come on the market. And the rate I am going they will be on the market by the time I am ready for them.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 at 9:07 am, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 15:02:16 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 19:02:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sources In-Reply-To: References: <406225367.6216704.1685738939883@mail.yahoo.com> <80c65803-99f2-bf63-f596-47a676d540dc@ohiohills.com> <77884AC9-1F76-4FC9-8143-03CEAA8B9493@gmail.com> <513153257.1552945.1687097038899@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <841683016.2040915.1687201336070@mail.yahoo.com> Roughly speaking lifepo is about half the weight of lead-acid. ?I?m going to compensate that difference with lead. However, the physical size advantage will only come into play if you build from individual cells since most 12volt lifepo batteries on the market mimic traditional sized lead-acid batteries and therefore there would be no physical size advantage. ?So you need to purchase individual cells, group them together into a battery, and then match a BMS to it for discharge and charging.? An alternative would be to purchase a ready made battery (group 24 for example) and then strip the cells and BMS out of it to reduce the physical size. ? Jon On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 01:49:40 PM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thanks JonHow do I pay for the stickers??What are the dimensions?and weight of the Lifepro batteries and are you still using 4 per pod? Sounds like they are lighter? if so, how did you compensate for the weight difference?? What were the costs of each?? Rick On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 4:04?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, this is the primary reason I am switching to DIY lifepo batteries.? The K-boat battery pods make dealing with standard batteries difficult especially given their weight.? When I was with Dan Lance earlier this year he had a battery that did fit but only without the removable tray in the plans. ? I can send you stickers.? I?m out of town until mid week so will contact you then.? Jon On Friday, June 16, 2023 at 02:29:59 PM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I had some difficulty?in inserting?my batteries the other day into the pods because of how close the battery lugs were to the wall of the pod. I had built an aluminum?tray for the batteries to make it easy to install and remove them for maintenance?and used 1/4" aluminum flat bar to fabricate them but I had to do away with the trays?because?of clearance issues and so even though that only bought me a 1/4" of an inch, I needed all the help I could get. It also helped in having the battery cables slide over the tops of the fill caps more easily when attached to the all thread that passes the power into the sub as they flex and bend when pushing it in after attaching.? Anyone else that is building a K-350 have that same problem? I welded two pieces of SS angle in the pods for the trays to slide on and can't remove them and lower them as they were put in before I welded the ends on. As they go down, they come together being pipe so I couldn't of gone much lower with them and still have the horizontal room to fit the batteries.? I also wanted to buy a couple of Psubs stickers that I have seen on other peoples boats and tried to do that on our web site?but I didn't have any luck finding the store that would have them for sale. Any ideas? Rick On Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 7:20?AM John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Grateful for all the info here.? While I was vague and only stated ?Li ion? I definitely have no fixed start point, so this is all good to learn about.? And certainly echo Busby that one needs to consider weight for ballast purposes as well.? I?ve spent most of my life around airplanes, so a slightly different approach to weight reveals itself, though CG management is a common theme here. Thanks to all for the info and discussion. On Jun 3, 2023, at 7:51 PM, Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I was sent some Waterways World magazines from 2020, a couple of years ago.? There are advertisements for electric power systems for canal boats.? They start with diesels tied to generators tied to batteries that drive 48VDC motors.? There appear to be versions that have no diesels involved, and the batteries are recharged from shore power.? In the UK, that's 230VAC. If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the magazines and make a list of the websites. Mike _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 15:17:15 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 21:17:15 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Message-ID: <00e501d9a2e2$a87419f0$f95c4dd0$@airesearch.nl> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 Looks not good.. Emile D.L. van Essen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 15:58:22 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 19:58:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <00e501d9a2e2$a87419f0$f95c4dd0$@airesearch.nl> References: <00e501d9a2e2$a87419f0$f95c4dd0$@airesearch.nl> Message-ID: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> I agree. Jon On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 Looks not good.. ? Emile D.L. van Essen ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 17:05:57 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 17:05:57 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> References: <00e501d9a2e2$a87419f0$f95c4dd0$@airesearch.nl> <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm sorry to hear this news. Hoping and praying the sub is found quickly with no loss of life! What do we know about the Oceangate Titan submersible? Hopefully at least 72-hrs of life support for its five occupants? ~ Doug S. On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:58?PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I agree. > > Jon > > > On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 > > Looks not good.. > > > > Emile D.L. van Essen > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 17:11:45 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (peaceroom via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 17:11:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 118, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <399073249.2718283.1687209110500@aol.com> Ocean Gate Monday update?Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: via Personal_Submersibles Date: 6/19/23 3:03 PM (GMT-05:00) To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 118, Issue 9 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.orgTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersiblesor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.orgYou can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.orgWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..."Today's Topics:?? 1. Re: Power sources (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles)?? 2. Re: Power sources (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles)?? 3. Re: Power sources (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles)----------------------------------------------------------------------Message: 1Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:05:47 -1000From: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sourcesMessage-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"Thanks Alan, that is what I would do if I went that route, any idea whatthe lifepro batteries cost? I just shelled out $1,400 for my 8 led acidbatteries that I finally got to fit into the pods which was quite a job. Asyou probably know, when you are building a sub, everyone that knows aboutit asks "so when will it be done?" and I stopped trying to give them ananswer because some jobs like the batteries that you think will go fast,ending up taking way longer than expected.RickOn Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 9:32?AM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote:> Hi Rick, this is part 2, hit send by mistake. Small phone big fingers. The> weight of lead on its own under the batteries could quite possibly> compensate for the difference in weight between the life po4 batteries &> the lead acid batteries, and make your centre of gravity lower.> Cheers Alan>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android> >> On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 at 5:49 am, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles> wrote:> _______________________________________________> Personal_Submersibles mailing list> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>> _______________________________________________> Personal_Submersibles mailing list> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>-------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 2Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 07:30:40 +0000 (UTC)From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sourcesMessage-ID: <402607032.1768896.1687159840679 at mail.yahoo.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"Rick,?I am the last person you should talk to about projects being over time. Some things that you think will take days take months.I am not sure of the cost of lifepo4 batteries. I have looked at comparisons regarding depth of discharge & cycle times & seen that they are a comparative price when all things are considered.?However I am waiting for the next generation of batteries to come on the market. And the rate I am going they will be on the market by the time I am ready for them.AlanSent from Yahoo Mail on Android ? On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 at 9:07 am, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? -------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Message: 3Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 19:02:16 +0000 (UTC)From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Power sourcesMessage-ID: <841683016.2040915.1687201336070 at mail.yahoo.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Roughly speaking lifepo is about half the weight of lead-acid. ?I?m going to compensate that difference with lead. However, the physical size advantage will only come into play if you build from individual cells since most 12volt lifepo batteries on the market mimic traditional sized lead-acid batteries and therefore there would be no physical size advantage. ?So you need to purchase individual cells, group them together into a battery, and then match a BMS to it for discharge and charging.?An alternative would be to purchase a ready made battery (group 24 for example) and then strip the cells and BMS out of it to reduce the physical size. ?Jon??? On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 01:49:40 PM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? Thanks JonHow do I pay for the stickers??What are the dimensions?and weight of the Lifepro batteries and are you still using 4 per pod? Sounds like they are lighter? if so, how did you compensate for the weight difference?? What were the costs of each??RickOn Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 4:04?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Rick, this is the primary reason I am switching to DIY lifepo batteries.? The K-boat battery pods make dealing with standard batteries difficult especially given their weight.? When I was with Dan Lance earlier this year he had a battery that did fit but only without the removable tray in the plans. ?I can send you stickers.? I?m out of town until mid week so will contact you then.?Jon??? On Friday, June 16, 2023 at 02:29:59 PM EDT, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? I had some difficulty?in inserting?my batteries the other day into the pods because of how close the battery lugs were to the wall of the pod. I had built an aluminum?tray for the batteries to make it easy to install and remove them for maintenance?and used 1/4" aluminum flat bar to fabricate them but I had to do away with the trays?because?of clearance issues and so even though that only bought me a 1/4" of an inch, I needed all the help I could get. It also helped in having the battery cables slide over the tops of the fill caps more easily when attached to the all thread that passes the power into the sub as they flex and bend when pushing it in after attaching.?Anyone else that is building a K-350 have that same problem? I welded two pieces of SS angle in the pods for the trays to slide on and can't remove them and lower them as they were put in before I welded the ends on. As they go down, they come together being pipe so I couldn't of gone much lower with them and still have the horizontal room to fit the batteries.?I also wanted to buy a couple of Psubs stickers that I have seen on other peoples boats and tried to do that on our web site?but I didn't have any luck finding the store that would have them for sale. Any ideas?RickOn Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 7:20?AM John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote:Grateful for all the info here.? While I was vague and only stated ?Li ion? I definitely have no fixed start point, so this is all good to learn about.? And certainly echo Busby that one needs to consider weight for ballast purposes as well.? I?ve spent most of my life around airplanes, so a slightly different approach to weight reveals itself, though CG management is a common theme here.Thanks to all for the info and discussion.On Jun 3, 2023, at 7:51 PM, Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles wrote:? I was sent some Waterways World magazines from 2020, a couple of years ago.? There are advertisements for electric power systems for canal boats.? They start with diesels tied to generators tied to batteries that drive 48VDC motors.? There appear to be versions that have no diesels involved, and the batteries are recharged from shore power.? In the UK, that's 230VAC. If anyone's interested, I'll dig out the magazines and make a list of the websites. Mike ? _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles? -------------- next part --------------An HTML attachment was scrubbed...URL: ------------------------------Subject: Digest Footer_______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles------------------------------End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 118, Issue 9***************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 17:29:21 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ian Juby via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 17:29:21 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <00e501d9a2e2$a87419f0$f95c4dd0$@airesearch.nl> <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I did some digging - 96 hours of air, but it's already been over 24 hours since it dove. It had pings it sent to the launch vessel at regular intervals which stopped and then no contact since then. It should be noted that last year a CBS reporter dove on this very sub and they 'lost contact' for some six hours then. They also have seven different methods of emergency flotation, some of which are quite ingenious. They have the usual: an inflatable flotation bag, hydraulically released ballast, and they also have bags of ballast on fusible links that the salt water severs after about 16 hours. They also have roll-off ballast bars on the sides. They literally get everyone on one side of the sub so that it leans, and the bars of ballast literally roll off the shelves - they're only held on by gravity.. Roll them off both sides you've gained a lot of buoyancy. They can also jetison the legs which is a lot of weight and there's ballast bags that are electrically released. However, if they float to the surface, they are still sealed inside, bolted closed from the outside. But still - this does not sound good. Contact was lost about 1 hour and 45 minutes into the dive, so it would have still been descending. Ian On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 5:16?PM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I'm sorry to hear this news. Hoping and praying the sub is found quickly > with no loss of life! What do we know about the Oceangate Titan > submersible? Hopefully at least 72-hrs of life support for its five > occupants? ~ Doug S. > > On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:58?PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> I agree. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 >> >> Looks not good.. >> >> >> >> Emile D.L. van Essen >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 17:37:54 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 14:37:54 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7AF04035-BAED-45D0-9A66-48F4D2FCC1A4@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 17:39:40 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 21:39:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <00e501d9a2e2$a87419f0$f95c4dd0$@airesearch.nl> <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <754656328.860559.1687210780480@mail.yahoo.com> Doug,?from what I heard the support ship lost contact about an hour & a half into the dive. And they havent been heard of for 24 hrs.That would indicate a catastrophic event.?If they just lost power, they should have back up power for the coms & even so they would have a drop weight & be able to get to the surface.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 at 9:27 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 17:48:39 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 21:48:39 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <00e501d9a2e2$a87419f0$f95c4dd0$@airesearch.nl> <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: https://www.oceangate.com/our-subs/titan-submersible.html Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 19, 2023, 15:05, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I'm sorry to hear this news. Hoping and praying the sub is found quickly with no loss of life! What do we know about the Oceangate Titan submersible? Hopefully at least 72-hrs of life support for its five occupants? ~ Doug S. > > On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:58?PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> I agree. >> >> Jon >> >> On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 >> >> Looks not good.. >> >> Emile D.L. van Essen >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 18:07:46 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 22:07:46 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Message-ID: I believe the hull is made of carbon fiber and the submersible wasn't certified any regulatory body (ABS/Lloyds/etc). This video gives some idea of the operation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29co_Hksk6o They read the waiver terms and conditions at 2:40 mark. At the 7:27 mark they show a previous expedition where they lose communication with the sub and it gets "lost" (since it depends on topside of navigation data) for a couple of hours. Hoping for the best. Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Jun 19, 2023 2:17 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site I'm sorry to hear this news. Hoping and praying the sub is found quickly with no loss of life! What do we know about the Oceangate Titan submersible? Hopefully at least 72-hrs of life support for its five occupants? ~ Doug S. On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:58?PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I agree. Jon On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872) Looks not good.. Emile D.L. van Essen _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 18:21:28 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 18:21:28 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you everyone for the info on this sub and her current situation. The fact that they are bolted into the pressure hull from the outside is a bit eerie, but it sounds like there's a lot of redundancy when it comes to surfacing. Hopefully the next 12 hours will bring good news. ~ Doug S. On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:12?PM irox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > I believe the hull is made of carbon fiber and the submersible wasn't > certified any regulatory body (ABS/Lloyds/etc). > > > > This video gives some idea of the operation: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29co_Hksk6o > > > > They read the waiver terms and conditions at 2:40 mark. At the 7:27 mark > they show a previous expedition where they lose communication with the sub > and it gets "lost" (since it depends on topside of navigation data) for a > couple of hours. > > > > Hoping for the best. > > > > Ian. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Jun 19, 2023 2:17 PM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > > I'm sorry to hear this news. Hoping and praying the sub is found quickly > with no loss of life! What do we know about the Oceangate Titan > submersible? Hopefully at least 72-hrs of life support for its five > occupants? ~ Doug S. > > On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:58?PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> >> I agree. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 >> >> Looks not good.. >> >> >> >> Emile D.L. van Essen >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 20:08:11 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Ian Juby via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 20:08:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So do any of you guys have a pressure hull of fiberglass or carbon fiber? I've been pondering this over in my head. The Titan's carbon fiber hull is, I believe, unique to deep submersibles. It also had this very sophisticated sensor system all over the hull, monitoring its health. The thing is, carbon fiber has no give - it simply catastrophically fails. This is the issue with using it on aircraft - it doesn't bend like metal does, it breaks. So what exactly does this hull sensor system look for or listen for? And if it detected problems? I don't think it would make any difference at all by that point - the hull would have failed long before the pilot had a chance to ascend to relieve pressure. I would think the time between the sensors detecting a problem and the hull catastrophically collapsing would be, at most, 10ths of a second. But I could be wrong - I just base that on my experience with the stuff. They were 1:45 into a 2-1/2 hour descent when contact was lost - so they hadn't even made it to the bottom yet - but still hitting over 9,000 feet. That's some pretty serious depth already. It's unlikely they made it to the Titanic and got entangled or trapped in the wreck somehow because it gets its navigation from the surface ship. So if communication is lost, they are also lost in terms of navigation. This is precisely what happened last year when that CBS reporter was aboard. The pilot on yesterday's dive would have scrubbed the dive if they had lost comms and thus navigation. Also let's bear in mind the loss of the Thresher - there was some kind of thermal plane at about 100 foot depth that kept both the Thresher and the Seawolf (the submarine trying to find the Thresher) from communicating with surface ships. Is it possible the Titan encountered some kind of thermal plane similar to that which disrupted their communications? But the fact that they still haven't had contact in a day and a half is telling me this is a recovery operation, not rescue. :( Just spitballing here - am I off the mark? Have any of you guys had a composite pressure hull? Ian On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:25?PM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Thank you everyone for the info on this sub and her current situation. The > fact that they are bolted into the pressure hull from the outside is a bit > eerie, but it sounds like there's a lot of redundancy when it comes to > surfacing. Hopefully the next 12 hours will bring good news. ~ Doug S. > > On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:12?PM irox via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> >> >> I believe the hull is made of carbon fiber and the submersible wasn't >> certified any regulatory body (ABS/Lloyds/etc). >> >> >> >> This video gives some idea of the operation: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29co_Hksk6o >> >> >> >> They read the waiver terms and conditions at 2:40 mark. At the 7:27 mark >> they show a previous expedition where they lose communication with the sub >> and it gets "lost" (since it depends on topside of navigation data) for a >> couple of hours. >> >> >> >> Hoping for the best. >> >> >> >> Ian. >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Sent: Jun 19, 2023 2:17 PM >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >> >> >> I'm sorry to hear this news. Hoping and praying the sub is found quickly >> with no loss of life! What do we know about the Oceangate Titan >> submersible? Hopefully at least 72-hrs of life support for its five >> occupants? ~ Doug S. >> >> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:58?PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> I agree. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 >>> >>> Looks not good.. >>> >>> >>> >>> Emile D.L. van Essen >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 21:05:26 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 01:05:26 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Composite pressure hulls are not unprecedented. I can think of the ISE Wrangler as an example, which was a GRP hull. The failure mode can be predicted with reasonable accuracy. Less so the failure stress. Composite hulls are considered in the rules (ABS), but require destructive testing of a series of identical hulls in order to characterize the failure pressure with acceptable statistical probability for acceptance by the classification society. As you mentioned, the failure modes are typically brittle, not ductile. True isotropic behaviour is also difficult to obtain in composites, and they are not particularly tolerant of damage. Among the PSub community, I am not aware of anyone employing a composite pressure hull, though many use composites in non-pressure-boundary components, like fairings, and of course syntactic buoyancy foams. Use of fiber reinforced composites I wouldn't advise unless one was a professional engineer with the requisite specialist experience. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 19, 2023, 18:08, Ian Juby via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > So do any of you guys have a pressure hull of fiberglass or carbon fiber? I've been pondering this over in my head. The Titan's carbon fiber hull is, I believe, unique to deep submersibles. It also had this very sophisticated sensor system all over the hull, monitoring its health. The thing is, carbon fiber has no give - it simply catastrophically fails. This is the issue with using it on aircraft - it doesn't bend like metal does, it breaks. So what exactly does this hull sensor system look for or listen for? And if it detected problems? I don't think it would make any difference at all by that point - the hull would have failed long before the pilot had a chance to ascend to relieve pressure. I would think the time between the sensors detecting a problem and the hull catastrophically collapsing would be, at most, 10ths of a second. But I could be wrong - I just base that on my experience with the stuff. > They were 1:45 into a 2-1/2 hour descent when contact was lost - so they hadn't even made it to the bottom yet - but still hitting over 9,000 feet. That's some pretty serious depth already. It's unlikely they made it to the Titanic and got entangled or trapped in the wreck somehow because it gets its navigation from the surface ship. So if communication is lost, they are also lost in terms of navigation. This is precisely what happened last year when that CBS reporter was aboard. The pilot on yesterday's dive would have scrubbed the dive if they had lost comms and thus navigation. > Also let's bear in mind the loss of the Thresher - there was some kind of thermal plane at about 100 foot depth that kept both the Thresher and the Seawolf (the submarine trying to find the Thresher) from communicating with surface ships. Is it possible the Titan encountered some kind of thermal plane similar to that which disrupted their communications? But the fact that they still haven't had contact in a day and a half is telling me this is a recovery operation, not rescue. :( > > Just spitballing here - am I off the mark? Have any of you guys had a composite pressure hull? > Ian > > On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:25?PM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> Thank you everyone for the info on this sub and her current situation. The fact that they are bolted into the pressure hull from the outside is a bit eerie, but it sounds like there's a lot of redundancy when it comes to surfacing. Hopefully the next 12 hours will bring good news. ~ Doug S. >> >> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:12?PM irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> I believe the hull is made of carbon fiber and the submersible wasn't certified any regulatory body (ABS/Lloyds/etc). >>> >>> This video gives some idea of the operation: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29co_Hksk6o >>> >>> They read the waiver terms and conditions at 2:40 mark. At the 7:27 mark they show a previous expedition where they lose communication with the sub and it gets "lost" (since it depends on topside of navigation data) for a couple of hours. >>> >>> Hoping for the best. >>> >>> Ian. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Sent: Jun 19, 2023 2:17 PM >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >>> >>> I'm sorry to hear this news. Hoping and praying the sub is found quickly with no loss of life! What do we know about the Oceangate Titan submersible? Hopefully at least 72-hrs of life support for its five occupants? ~ Doug S. >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:58?PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> I agree. >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> >>>> On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 >>>> >>>> Looks not good.. >>>> >>>> Emile D.L. van Essen >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 19 21:33:11 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2023 21:33:11 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 20 05:57:05 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 09:57:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> I did not know Mike had taken the trip previously. ?Stockton Rush was onboard and some of you may know him. ?Must be about 12 years ago now but Dan Lance, myself, and a couple others had dinner with Stockton while attending MTS underwater intervention. ?At that time they were just beginning to put together their company. ? Jon On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 09:34:44 PM EDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I?m sorry to say I?m not at all optimistic on this one. What a relief Mike Caudle was on a prior trip.? Alec On Jun 19, 2023, at 3:58 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? I agree. Jon On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 Looks not good.. ? Emile D.L. van Essen ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 20 08:39:46 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 08:39:46 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yikes... I've been doing some reading about this 'OceanGate Expeditions' and I've got to say, their operations sound rather jury-rigged. To be fair, we PSUBBERS sometimes employ similar techniques, but we aren't usually going to 13,000 feet. I'm still maintaining hope. Maybe they're on a slow ascent and drifting with the currents. ~ Doug S. ?Missing? OceanGate CEO reveals Titanic submersible operated with ?game controller? and built ?with camping parts? in resurfaced video The OceanGate CEO believed to be missing on board a Titanic exploration submersible described how the vessel was ?built with camping parts" and operated with a ?game controller? in a resurfaced video. In November 2022, Stockton Rush told CBS the Titan craft was built with ?off-the-shelf components.? Pointing at parts of the vessel, Mr Rush said: ?We can use these off-the-shelf components. I got these from Camping World. ?We run the whole thing with this game controller,? he added, picking up a gamepad. Reporter David Pogue said pieces of the submersible seemed ?improvised,? but Mr Rush told him the vessel would be ?safe? even if parts didn?t work. Mr Rush is believed to be among the five-person crew aboard the craft. The underwater vehicle submerged on Sunday morning (18 June) and its support vessel lost contact with it about an hour and 45 minutes later, authorities said. On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 5:57?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I did not know Mike had taken the trip previously. Stockton Rush was > onboard and some of you may know him. Must be about 12 years ago now but > Dan Lance, myself, and a couple others had dinner with Stockton while > attending MTS underwater intervention. At that time they were just > beginning to put together their company. > > Jon > > > On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 09:34:44 PM EDT, Alec Smyth via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I?m sorry to say I?m not at all optimistic on this one. What a relief Mike > Caudle was on a prior trip. > > Alec > > > On Jun 19, 2023, at 3:58 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > I agree. > > Jon > > > On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 > > Looks not good.. > > > > Emile D.L. van Essen > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 20 12:08:42 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 18:08:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1687277322772.2671048.964cc48cf3c3fa0b0fb63ac5817bee36bfd175c4@spica.telekom.de> Ian a friend of mine tested such a hull (Carbon zylinder with titan endcaps) in April. Design calculation was for 6000 m - but collaps half way. - The Titan sub has no entrance hatch - no dive tanks (can not really surface) - the larges Carbon- Titan pressure hull build -11 dives. - no certifications - an Toy-Controller The lost of contact after just 1:46 h and the lost of the pressurehull of my friend in April indicate a catastrophic senario. But if the boat impolde - sombody at the navy will have the soundings. First question should be to the navy - any seismic soundings? vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-20T02:45:52+0200 Von: "Ian Juby via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" So do any of you guys have a pressure hull of fiberglass or carbon fiber? I've been pondering this over in my head. The Titan's carbon fiber hull is, I believe, unique to deep submersibles. It also had this very sophisticated sensor system all over the hull, monitoring its health. The thing is, carbon fiber has no give - it simply catastrophically fails. This is the issue with using it on aircraft - it doesn't bend like metal does, it breaks. So what exactly does this hull sensor system look for or listen for? And if it detected problems? I don't think it would make any difference at all by that point - the hull would have failed long before the pilot had a chance to ascend to relieve pressure. I would think the time between the sensors detecting a problem and the hull catastrophically collapsing would be, at most, 10ths of a second. But I could be wrong - I just base that on my experience with the stuff. They were 1:45 into a 2-1/2 hour descent when contact was lost - so they hadn't even made it to the bottom yet - but still hitting over 9,000 feet. That's some pretty serious depth already. It's unlikely they made it to the Titanic and got entangled or trapped in the wreck somehow because it gets its navigation from the surface ship. So if communication is lost, they are also lost in terms of navigation. This is precisely what happened last year when that CBS reporter was aboard. The pilot on yesterday's dive would have scrubbed the dive if they had lost comms and thus navigation. Also let's bear in mind the loss of the Thresher - there was some kind of thermal plane at about 100 foot depth that kept both the Thresher and the Seawolf (the submarine trying to find the Thresher) from communicating with surface ships. Is it possible the Titan encountered some kind of thermal plane similar to that which disrupted their communications? But the fact that they still haven't had contact in a day and a half is telling me this is a recovery operation, not rescue. :( Just spitballing here - am I off the mark? Have any of you guys had a composite pressure hull? Ian On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:25?PM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Thank you everyone for the info on this sub and her current situation. The fact that they are bolted into the pressure hull from the outside is a bit eerie, but it sounds like there's a lot of redundancy when it comes to surfacing. Hopefully the next 12 hours will bring good news. ~ Doug S. On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:12?PM irox via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I believe the hull is made of carbon fiber and the submersible wasn't certified any regulatory body (ABS/Lloyds/etc). This video gives some idea of the operation: They read the waiver terms and conditions at 2:40 mark. At the 7:27 mark they show a previous expedition where they lose communication with the sub and it gets "lost" (since it depends on topside of navigation data) for a couple of hours. Hoping for the best. Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Sent: Jun 19, 2023 2:17 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site I'm sorry to hear this news. Hoping and praying the sub is found quickly with no loss of life! What do we know about the Oceangate Titan submersible? Hopefully at least 72-hrs of life support for its five occupants? ~ Doug S. On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:58?PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: I agree. Jon On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 Looks not good.. Emile D.L. van Essen _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 20 14:44:45 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 14:44:45 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <09E21835-FA95-4BCE-BBB5-FF8EEF02E0C5@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 20 15:43:26 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 19:43:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Doug,my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules.All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck.If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 20 16:18:01 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 16:18:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1687277322772.2671048.964cc48cf3c3fa0b0fb63ac5817bee36bfd175c4@spica.telekom.de> References: <1687277322772.2671048.964cc48cf3c3fa0b0fb63ac5817bee36bfd175c4@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: My hope is starting to dwindle. This article would seem to be rather telling: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/whistleblower-raised-safety-concerns-oceangate-190058533.html ~ Doug S. On Tue, Jun 20, 2023 at 12:16?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Ian a friend of mine tested such a hull (Carbon zylinder with titan > endcaps) in April. > > Design calculation was for 6000 m - but collaps half way. > > > > - The Titan sub has no entrance hatch > > - no dive tanks (can not really surface) > > - the larges Carbon- Titan pressure hull build > > -11 dives. > > - no certifications > > - an Toy-Controller > > > > The lost of contact after just 1:46 h and the lost of the pressurehull of > my friend in April indicate > > a catastrophic senario. But if the boat impolde - sombody at the navy will > have the soundings. > > > > First question should be to the navy - any seismic soundings? > > > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-20T02:45:52+0200 > > Von: "Ian Juby via Personal_Submersibles" > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > So do any of you guys have a pressure hull of fiberglass or carbon fiber? > I've been pondering this over in my head. The Titan's carbon fiber hull is, > I believe, unique to deep submersibles. It also had this very sophisticated > sensor system all over the hull, monitoring its health. The thing is, > carbon fiber has no give - it simply catastrophically fails. This is the > issue with using it on aircraft - it doesn't bend like metal does, it > breaks. So what exactly does this hull sensor system look for or listen > for? And if it detected problems? I don't think it would make any > difference at all by that point - the hull would have failed long before > the pilot had a chance to ascend to relieve pressure. I would think the > time between the sensors detecting a problem and the hull catastrophically > collapsing would be, at most, 10ths of a second. But I could be wrong - I > just base that on my experience with the stuff. > They were 1:45 into a 2-1/2 hour descent when contact was lost - so they > hadn't even made it to the bottom yet - but still hitting over 9,000 feet. > That's some pretty serious depth already. It's unlikely they made it to the > Titanic and got entangled or trapped in the wreck somehow because it gets > its navigation from the surface ship. So if communication is lost, they are > also lost in terms of navigation. This is precisely what happened last year > when that CBS reporter was aboard. The pilot on yesterday's dive would have > scrubbed the dive if they had lost comms and thus navigation. > Also let's bear in mind the loss of the Thresher - there was some kind of > thermal plane at about 100 foot depth that kept both the Thresher and the > Seawolf (the submarine trying to find the Thresher) from communicating with > surface ships. Is it possible the Titan encountered some kind of thermal > plane similar to that which disrupted their communications? But the fact > that they still haven't had contact in a day and a half is telling me this > is a recovery operation, not rescue. :( > > Just spitballing here - am I off the mark? Have any of you guys had a > composite pressure hull? > Ian > > > On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:25?PM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Thank you everyone for the info on this sub and her current situation. >> The fact that they are bolted into the pressure hull from the outside is a >> bit eerie, but it sounds like there's a lot of redundancy when it comes to >> surfacing. Hopefully the next 12 hours will bring good news. ~ Doug S. >> >> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:12?PM irox via Personal_Submersibles < >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I believe the hull is made of carbon fiber and the submersible wasn't >>> certified any regulatory body (ABS/Lloyds/etc). >>> >>> >>> >>> This video gives some idea of the operation: >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29co_Hksk6o >>> >>> >>> >>> They read the waiver terms and conditions at 2:40 mark. At the 7:27 >>> mark they show a previous expedition where they lose communication with the >>> sub and it gets "lost" (since it depends on topside of navigation data) for >>> a couple of hours. >>> >>> >>> >>> Hoping for the best. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ian. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Sent: Jun 19, 2023 2:17 PM >>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >>> >>> >>> I'm sorry to hear this news. Hoping and praying the sub is found quickly >>> with no loss of life! What do we know about the Oceangate Titan >>> submersible? Hopefully at least 72-hrs of life support for its five >>> occupants? ~ Doug S. >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:58?PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < >>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> I agree. >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles < >>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 >>>> >>>> Looks not good.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Emile D.L. van Essen >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 20 17:04:23 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2023 21:04:23 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Message-ID: I have to admit my heart sank when I read the hull was carbon fibre. This might not be the only problem, seems they may have been gambling on a much lower viewport safety factor as well. "the viewport at the forward of the submersible was only built to a certified pressure of 1,300 meters, although OceanGate intended to take passengers down to depths of 4,000 meters. Lochridge learned that the viewport manufacturer would only certify to a depth of 1,300 meters due to experimental design of the viewport supplied by OceanGate, which was out of the Pressure Vessels for Human Occupancy (“PVHO”) standards." That was from a whistle blower complaint from 2018: https://newrepublic.com/post/173802/missing-titanic-sub-faced-lawsuit-depths-safely-travel-oceangate Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Jun 20, 2023 9:17 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Ian a friend of mine tested such a hull (Carbon zylinder with titan endcaps) in April. Design calculation was for 6000 m - but collaps half way. - The Titan sub has no entrance hatch - no dive tanks (can not really surface) - the larges Carbon- Titan pressure hull build -11 dives. - no certifications - an Toy-Controller The lost of contact after just 1:46 h and the lost of the pressurehull of my friend in April indicate a catastrophic senario. But if the boat impolde - sombody at the navy will have the soundings. First question should be to the navy - any seismic soundings? vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-20T02:45:52+0200 Von: "Ian Juby via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" So do any of you guys have a pressure hull of fiberglass or carbon fiber? I've been pondering this over in my head. The Titan's carbon fiber hull is, I believe, unique to deep submersibles. It also had this very sophisticated sensor system all over the hull, monitoring its health. The thing is, carbon fiber has no give - it simply catastrophically fails. This is the issue with using it on aircraft - it doesn't bend like metal does, it breaks. So what exactly does this hull sensor system look for or listen for? And if it detected problems? I don't think it would make any difference at all by that point - the hull would have failed long before the pilot had a chance to ascend to relieve pressure. I would think the time between the sensors detecting a problem and the hull catastrophically collapsing would be, at most, 10ths of a second. But I could be wrong - I just base that on my experience with the stuff.They were 1:45 into a 2-1/2 hour descent when contact was lost - so they hadn't even made it to the bottom yet - but still hitting over 9,000 feet. That's some pretty serious depth already. It's unlikely they made it to the Titanic and got entangled or trapped in the wreck somehow because it gets its navigation from the surface ship. So if communication is lost, they are also lost in terms of navigation. This is precisely what happened last year when that CBS reporter was aboard. The pilot on yesterday's dive would have scrubbed the dive if they had lost comms and thus navigation. Also let's bear in mind the loss of the Thresher - there was some kind of thermal plane at about 100 foot depth that kept both the Thresher and the Seawolf (the submarine trying to find the Thresher) from communicating with surface ships. Is it possible the Titan encountered some kind of thermal plane similar to that which disrupted their communications? But the fact that they still haven't had contact in a day and a half is telling me this is a recovery operation, not rescue. :( Just spitballing here - am I off the mark? Have any of you guys had a composite pressure hull? Ian On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:25?PM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Thank you everyone for the info on this sub and her current situation. The fact that they are bolted into the pressure hull from the outside is a bit eerie, but it sounds like there's a lot of redundancy when it comes to surfacing. Hopefully the next 12 hours will bring good news. ~ Doug S. On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 6:12?PM irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I believe the hull is made of carbon fiber and the submersible wasn't certified any regulatory body (ABS/Lloyds/etc). This video gives some idea of the operation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29co_Hksk6o They read the waiver terms and conditions at 2:40 mark. At the 7:27 mark they show a previous expedition where they lose communication with the sub and it gets "lost" (since it depends on topside of navigation data) for a couple of hours. Hoping for the best. Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Jun 19, 2023 2:17 PM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site I'm sorry to hear this news. Hoping and praying the sub is found quickly with no loss of life! What do we know about the Oceangate Titan submersible? Hopefully at least 72-hrs of life support for its five occupants? ~ Doug S. On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 3:58?PM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I agree. Jon On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 03:18:23 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872) Looks not good.. Emile D.L. van Essen _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 22 11:31:31 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2023 15:31:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71047297.3664612.1687447891703@mail.yahoo.com> This unfortunate situation does serve as a reminder that we should review our own safety guidelines and how we organize our own dive events in the future.? It is also a reminder that accidents/mistakes can happen and it pays to be as safety orientated and prepared as we can be.? This is a difficult loss and we should use lessons we can learn from it to make our own adventures safer. Additionally, it's not clear to me at this point if this incident might bring restrictions to recreational underwater exploration however we should be prepared to fight for our ability to do so without undue encumbrances. Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 22 13:36:39 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2023 17:36:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1691901228.3757636.1687455399747@mail.yahoo.com> US Coast Guard press briefing at 3pm EDT today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 05:28:54 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 09:28:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <09E21835-FA95-4BCE-BBB5-FF8EEF02E0C5@gmail.com> References: <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <09E21835-FA95-4BCE-BBB5-FF8EEF02E0C5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2024664532.4078437.1687512534536@mail.yahoo.com> I was thinking about the carbon fibre hull & wondered whether the heat differential from the outside to the inside on the 5" thick hull had anything to do with the Titan crushing.At the wreck the water temperature is around 3?C & inside the sub it may be 24C (guessing). The carbon fibre is a great insulator so the outer face of the hull could be relatively stiffer due to the cold & take up more of the pressure than the more softer inner layers. Through cycling the outer layers could weaken. This would be unique to the submarine environment because I dont know anywhere else they would use 5" thick carbon fibre in freezing temperatures.Alan? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 at 6:48 pm, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 07:22:01 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:22:01 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The controller is not something I would use, mine is physically much tougher and has things like O-ring seals on all the pots and switches. Nonetheless, I found it amazing the degree to which the "experts" latched onto that and anything else that was off the shelf, as if the concept of using OTS components were some sort of cardinal sin. The controller, the cabin lights from Camping World, and recycled pipes for ballast were all treated as obvious evidence of bad engineering or even a total scam. Who cares what your ballast was in a previous life, if it weighs what you need it to weigh? Moving forward we not only have to look at whether OTS parts work and are reliable, but also how they will be perceived. I'm not just ranting against the misinformed TikTok experts, I think this is an actual lesson for us. Imagine a boat ramp conversation with some local authority right now, when you explain that you control the sub with a game controller. :) On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 2:52?AM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hi Doug, > my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast > & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million > kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if > it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done > the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a > catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they > would certainly have been building to the rules. > All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck. > If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its > crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should > have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery. > Alan > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 07:25:31 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:25:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Karl's FB post Message-ID: For those not on Facebook, Karl Stanley made a post I think is incredibly revealing, and which ought to go straight into any lawsuit or documentary about this episode. He mentioned it's good to share, so here you go. ---------------------- pasted --------------------------- This is what I wrote Stockton hours after I did the dive in the Bahamas- Karl Stanley Apr 18, 2019, 11:44 AM to Stockton Stockton, Thanks again for the amazing opportunity you afforded me yesterday. While I know we have a special connection running "sister subs" , the quality of the work I did for you in WA was excellent, and you enjoyed reading my exchange with Bruce Jones, I think the main reason I got this opportunity to dive might have the most to do with if there was such a thing as "expert in risk assessment in one-off , uncertifiable deep sea manned vehicles" my resume is hard to beat, and you know we are like minded when it comes to judging how far things can safely be pushed. As such this is my opinion / analysis of what I have seen here. While I think your concept of RTA is sound, I am not sure it applies in this case. The sounds we observed yesterday do not seem consistent with glue joints breaking, air cavities breaking, or the random weak fiber breaking. What we heard, in my opinion, and I think after the discussion Joel and I had last night, I can say he shares this opinion, sounded like a flaw/ defect in one area being acted on by the tremendous pressures and being crushed/ damaged. From the intensity of the sounds , the fact that they never totally stopped at depth, and the fact that there were sounds at about 300 feet that indicated a relaxing of stored energy /would indicate that there is an area of the hull that is breaking down/ getting spongy. I understand you are under enormous pressure from investors, people that have been waiting to go, people that are literally dying to go and might not be around if you push it another season. A useful thought exercise here would be to imagine the removal of the variables of the investors, the eager mission scientists, your team hungry for success, the press releases already announcing this summer's dive schedule. Imagine this project was self funded and on your own schedule. Would you consider taking dozens of other people to the Titanic before you truly knew the source of those sounds ?? I believe in what you are doing. I think the use of composites is long overdue for MUVS. You have already shown the idea can work, 95% of that hull is performing great, but that spot is clearly talking to anyone that will listen , saying something is not right there. Even that is a validation of your material choice, it is giving you plenty of warning. Another way I like to make decisions is by considering worst case scenarios. The worst case scenario of delaying diving until you have identified the defect making all that noise is some disappointed customers and financial woes. The worst case scenario of pushing ahead and not listening to the hull yelling at you involves Patrick Lahey and some russian oligarch tooling around a russian nesting dolls version of a wreck site in a made for TV special, telling his version of how things went wrong. I hope you see option B as unacceptable as I do. Karl Stanley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 07:54:35 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 11:54:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Karl's FB post In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <751840113.4097210.1687521275093@mail.yahoo.com> I questioned Stanley about this on FB and didn't understand his response, maybe someone here can clarify.? His message to Rush is dated 2019 and I found a news article from 2020 that indicates Rush downrated that vessel to 3000 meters due to "cyclic fatigue".? It indicates he was building a new Titan vessel to dive Titanic.? Seems obvious Rush didn't resolve the cyclic fatigue issue with the new vessel but I also think Stanley's message gives the impression that the same vessel he complained about was the one that was lost.? Maybe I'm splitting hairs. Jon On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 07:27:33 AM EDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: For those not on Facebook, Karl Stanley made a post I think is incredibly revealing, and which ought to go straight into any lawsuit or documentary about this episode. He mentioned it's good to share, so here you go. ---------------------- pasted --------------------------- This is what I wrote Stockton hours after I did the dive in the Bahamas- Karl Stanley Apr 18, 2019, 11:44 AM to Stockton Stockton, Thanks again for the amazing opportunity you afforded me yesterday. While I know we have a special connection running "sister subs" , the quality of the work I did for you in WA was excellent, and you enjoyed reading my exchange with Bruce Jones, I think the main reason I got this opportunity to dive might have the most to do with if there was such a thing as "expert in risk assessment in one-off , uncertifiable deep sea manned vehicles" my resume is hard to beat, and you know we are like minded when it comes to judging how far things can safely be pushed. As such this is my opinion / analysis of what I have seen here. ?While I think your concept of RTA is sound, I am not sure it applies in this case. The sounds we observed yesterday do not seem consistent with glue joints breaking, air cavities breaking, or the random weak fiber breaking. What we heard, in my opinion, and I think after the discussion Joel and I had last night, I can say he shares this opinion, sounded like a flaw/ defect in one area being acted on by the tremendous pressures and being crushed/ damaged.? From the intensity of the sounds , the fact that they never totally stopped at depth, and the fact that there were sounds at about 300 feet that indicated a relaxing of stored energy /would indicate that there is an area of the hull that is breaking down/ getting spongy. ? I understand you are under enormous pressure from investors, people that have been waiting to go, people that are literally dying to go and might not be around if you push it another season. ? ? ?A useful thought exercise here would be to imagine the removal of the variables of the investors, the eager mission scientists, your team hungry for success, the press releases already announcing this summer's dive schedule. Imagine this project was self funded and on your own schedule. Would you consider taking dozens of other people to the Titanic before you truly knew the source of those sounds ?? ? ? I believe in what you are doing. I think the use of composites is long overdue for MUVS. You have already shown the idea can work, 95% of that hull is performing great, but that spot is clearly talking to anyone that will listen , saying something is not right there. Even that is a validation of your material choice, it is giving you plenty of warning. ? Another way I like to ?make decisions is by considering worst case scenarios. The worst case scenario of delaying diving until you have identified the defect making all that noise is some disappointed customers and financial woes. The worst case scenario of pushing ahead and not listening to the hull yelling at you involves Patrick Lahey and some russian oligarch tooling around a russian nesting dolls version of a wreck site in a made for TV special, telling his version of how things went wrong.? I hope you see option B as unacceptable as I do. ? ?Karl Stanley _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 08:20:39 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 07:20:39 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Karl's FB post In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18A1DD1E-F48A-4D5B-84FB-69907677FAEE@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 08:38:56 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 12:38:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1699540460.4113994.1687523936644@mail.yahoo.com> I am not at all concerned about using off-the-shelf parts for components that do not require sophisticated specialized equipment and certainly those components that do not have any relativity to hull integrity.? The xbox controller, camper world interior lights, and steel pipe ballast were all reasonable components in my opinion and we could have a lengthy discussion about why, if anyone was really interested.? The press edits interviews and reports to viewers based upon the message they want to portray.? I saw the interview Rush had with David Pogue talking about the xbox controller and Pogue slaps his forehead in a WTF incredulous manner.? I'm guessing the part where Rush justifies the use of the controller and why it's acceptable to use it was edited out because it's much more sensational to leave the viewer with..."this sub goes all the way to the Titanic and uses an xbox controller." Jon? On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 07:23:44 AM EDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: The controller is not something I would use, mine is physically much tougher and has things like O-ring seals on all the pots and switches. Nonetheless, I found it amazing the degree to which the "experts" latched onto that and anything else that was off the shelf, as if the concept of using OTS components were some sort of cardinal sin.?The controller, the cabin lights from Camping World, and recycled pipes for ballast were all treated as obvious evidence of bad engineering or even a total scam. Who cares what your ballast was in a previous life, if it weighs what you need it to weigh? Moving forward we not only have to look at whether OTS?parts work and are reliable, but also how they will be perceived. I'm not just ranting against the misinformed TikTok experts, I think this is an actual lesson for us. Imagine a boat ramp conversation with some local authority right now, when you explain that you control the sub with a game controller.? :) On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 2:52?AM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Doug,my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules.All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck.If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 08:48:50 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 14:48:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1687524530272.2860049.37ee76e738b1942749e56b5e338aae01f126fb58@spica.telekom.de> Hi Ala - the question is not which controller your sub has. The question is how many paying Guest you have.. vbr Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200 Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hi Doug, my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules. All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck. If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery. Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 08:53:32 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 14:53:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1687524812384.165649.d85878f34ebacd8275837c9f911ee2d65932eb42@spica.telekom.de> Another point: Older expeditions with guest to the titanic were done with two subs. So one can update/help/locate usw. the other. Seems the Mothership here has not even an Workclass rov at least. -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-23T13:23:26+0200 Von: "Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" The controller is not something I would use, mine is physically much tougher and has things like O-ring seals on all the pots and switches. Nonetheless, I found it amazing the degree to which the "experts" latched onto that and anything else that was off the shelf, as if the concept of using OTS components were some sort of cardinal sin. The controller, the cabin lights from Camping World, and recycled pipes for ballast were all treated as obvious evidence of bad engineering or even a total scam. Who cares what your ballast was in a previous life, if it weighs what you need it to weigh? Moving forward we not only have to look at whether OTS parts work and are reliable, but also how they will be perceived. I'm not just ranting against the misinformed TikTok experts, I think this is an actual lesson for us. Imagine a boat ramp conversation with some local authority right now, when you explain that you control the sub with a game controller. :) On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 2:52?AM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: Hi Doug, my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules. All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck. If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery. Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 08:56:48 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 12:56:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1687524530272.2860049.37ee76e738b1942749e56b5e338aae01f126fb58@spica.telekom.de> References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> <1687524530272.2860049.37ee76e738b1942749e56b5e338aae01f126fb58@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <16160885.4113090.1687525008732@mail.yahoo.com> I agree.? That's the bottom line. Jon On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Ala - the question is not which controller your sub has. The question is how many paying Guest you have..? vbr Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200 Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? Hi Doug,my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules.All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck.If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote:_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 13:22:31 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 13:22:31 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <16160885.4113090.1687525008732@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> <1687524530272.2860049.37ee76e738b1942749e56b5e338aae01f126fb58@spica.telekom.de> <16160885.4113090.1687525008732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: So the mysterious disappearance of the Titan submersible is no longer a mystery - she collapsed. But to me a vital question remains unanswered: why, after so many different entities raised concerns over the use of the carbon composite hull, did leadership forge ahead anyway? The fact that the CEO was aboard would seem to indicate he was confident in his hull, but why? Did he feel he knew better than all these other folks who raised concerns? If it were one or two people who disagreed, that would be one matter, but it would seem there's a list a mile long of those who raised serious safety concerns (including 'amateur builders' like Karl Stanley). Did any of the passengers on this voyage understand the highly controversial decision to build with carbon fiber? The highly experienced Frenchman who had logged so much time at Titanic was unconcerned? As Carsten points out, wouldn't the guy have been suspicious that there was no second submersible or at least ROV for mission redundancy? Alan, I totally understand the practicality of using off-the-shelf parts and components for non-critical applications, but as Alec suggests, it's a matter of optics. After this episode, when the USCG asks to take a look at one of our homebuilt submersibles and sees a game controller, what are they going to think of? Among the many tasteless jokes being tossed around online in the wake of this tragedy, one of the more G-rated ones went something like this: The only time 'homemade' and 'submarine' should be used in the same sentence is when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen! This is a PR disaster for the homebuilt submersible community. ~ Doug S. On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:57?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > I agree. That's the bottom line. > > Jon > > On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hi Ala > > - the question is not which controller your sub has. > > The question is how many paying Guest you have.. > > vbr Carsten > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200 > > Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > Hi Doug, > my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast > & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million > kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if > it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done > the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a > catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they > would certainly have been building to the rules. > All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck. > If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its > crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should > have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery. > Alan > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 14:21:34 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 18:21:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> <1687524530272.2860049.37ee76e738b1942749e56b5e338aae01f126fb58@spica.telekom.de> <16160885.4113090.1687525008732@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <519358007.2373720.1687544494924@mail.yahoo.com> Doug, Trying to apply logic here won't work. When I was co-chair of the manned underwater vehicle committee at the Marine Technology Society, our chairman Will Kohnen wrote what was essentially a letter of censure to OceanGate and Rush. I critiqued that letter and was one of the 38 signatories. Stockton Rush ignored that letter. Our opinion simply didn't suit him. He lumped us all into the bunch-of-50-year-old-white-guys category, and dismissed us out of hand. Of course, you can understand his skepticism. We only had collectively about a thousand years of experience and a jillion dives between us. So, what did we know? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site So the mysterious disappearance of the Titan submersible is no longer?a mystery - she collapsed. But to me a vital question remains unanswered: why, after so many different entities raised concerns over the use of the carbon composite hull, did leadership forge ahead anyway? The fact that the CEO was aboard?would seem to indicate he was confident in his hull, but why? Did he feel he knew better than all these other folks who raised concerns? If it were one or two people who disagreed, that would be one matter, but it would seem there's a list a mile long of those who raised serious safety concerns (including 'amateur builders' like Karl Stanley). Did any of the passengers on this voyage understand?the highly controversial?decision?to build with carbon fiber? The highly experienced Frenchman who had logged so much time at Titanic was unconcerned? As Carsten points out, wouldn't the guy have been suspicious?that there was no second submersible or at least ROV for mission redundancy?? Alan, I totally understand the practicality of using?off-the-shelf parts and components for non-critical applications, but as Alec suggests, it's a matter of optics. After this episode, when the USCG asks to take a look at one of our homebuilt submersibles and sees a game controller, what are they going to think of? Among the many tasteless jokes being tossed around online in the wake of this tragedy, one of the more G-rated ones went something like this: The only time 'homemade' and 'submarine' should be used in the same sentence is when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen! This is a PR disaster for the homebuilt submersible community. ~ Doug S. ?? On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:57?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I agree.? That's the bottom line. Jon On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Ala - the question is not which controller your sub has. The question is how many paying Guest you have..?vbr Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic siteDatum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi Doug,my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules.All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck.If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote:_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 14:36:11 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 18:36:11 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <519358007.2373720.1687544494924@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> <1687524530272.2860049.37ee76e738b1942749e56b5e338aae01f126fb58@spica.telekom.de> <16160885.4113090.1687525008732@mail.yahoo.com> <519358007.2373720.1687544494924@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I wonder how concerned we should be about operators like Karl Stanley, who is similarly conducting commercial dives outside any regulatory framework, in a vessel which is technically ineligible for class due to departures from the society rules. Does he get a pass because of his safety record, or is there a line to be drawn somewhere? Sean Sent from Proton Mail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 12:21, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Doug, > > Trying to apply logic here won't work. When I was co-chair of the manned underwater vehicle committee at the Marine Technology Society, our chairman Will Kohnen wrote what was essentially a letter of censure to OceanGate and Rush. I critiqued that letter and was one of the 38 signatories. Stockton Rush ignored that letter. Our opinion simply didn't suit him. He lumped us all into the bunch-of-50-year-old-white-guys category, and dismissed us out of hand. Of course, you can understand his skepticism. We only had collectively about a thousand years of experience and a jillion dives between us. So, what did we know? > > Vance > > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 1:22 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > So the mysterious disappearance of the Titan submersible is no longer a mystery - she collapsed. But to me a vital question remains unanswered: why, after so many different entities raised concerns over the use of the carbon composite hull, did leadership forge ahead anyway? The fact that the CEO was aboard would seem to indicate he was confident in his hull, but why? Did he feel he knew better than all these other folks who raised concerns? If it were one or two people who disagreed, that would be one matter, but it would seem there's a list a mile long of those who raised serious safety concerns (including 'amateur builders' like Karl Stanley). Did any of the passengers on this voyage understand the highly controversial decision to build with carbon fiber? The highly experienced Frenchman who had logged so much time at Titanic was unconcerned? As Carsten points out, wouldn't the guy have been suspicious that there was no second submersible or at least ROV for mission redundancy? > > Alan, I totally understand the practicality of using off-the-shelf parts and components for non-critical applications, but as Alec suggests, it's a matter of optics. After this episode, when the USCG asks to take a look at one of our homebuilt submersibles and sees a game controller, what are they going to think of? Among the many tasteless jokes being tossed around online in the wake of this tragedy, one of the more G-rated ones went something like this: The only time 'homemade' and 'submarine' should be used in the same sentence is when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen! This is a PR disaster for the homebuilt submersible community. ~ Doug S. > > On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:57?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> I agree. That's the bottom line. >> >> Jon >> >> On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hi Ala >> - the question is not which controller your sub has. >> The question is how many paying Guest you have.. >> vbr Carsten >> >> -----Original-Nachricht----- >> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >> Datum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200 >> Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" >> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >> >> Hi Doug, >> my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules. >> All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck. >> If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery. >> Alan >> >> [Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android](https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_) >> >>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> ? >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 15:13:48 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 19:13:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> <1687524530272.2860049.37ee76e738b1942749e56b5e338aae01f126fb58@spica.telekom.de> <16160885.4113090.1687525008732@mail.yahoo.com> <519358007.2373720.1687544494924@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1457330251.4311045.1687547628865@mail.yahoo.com> What I would like to know is, why all the people and agencies writing letters to Ocean Gate did not go one step further. ?Why did they not go to court to force the issue. ?Its likely they could not stop the project, but it is possible, maybe? that a judge would make an order to force OceanGate to disclose the concerns from all the agencies in the disclaimer . ?Why did the agencies not send a letter to the passengers to warn them? ?I guess they could say, "its not our job to police private operators". Thats like not saving the drowning child in the pool because you warned the child and you are not the life guard. ? I think Ocean Gate acted very irresponsibly, but I also think the certification bodies ?fell asleep at the switch. ?Hank On Friday, June 23, 2023, 12:36:35 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I wonder how concerned we should be about operators like Karl Stanley, who is similarly conducting commercial dives outside any regulatory framework, in a vessel which is technically ineligible for class due to departures from the society rules. Does he get a pass because of his safety record, or is there a line to be drawn somewhere? Sean Sent from Proton Mail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 12:21, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Doug, Trying to apply logic here won't work. When I was co-chair of the manned underwater vehicle committee at the Marine Technology Society, our chairman Will Kohnen wrote what was essentially a letter of censure to OceanGate and Rush. I critiqued that letter and was one of the 38 signatories. Stockton Rush ignored that letter. Our opinion simply didn't suit him. He lumped us all into the bunch-of-50-year-old-white-guys category, and dismissed us out of hand. Of course, you can understand his skepticism. We only had collectively about a thousand years of experience and a jillion dives between us. So, what did we know? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site So the mysterious disappearance of the Titan submersible is no longer?a mystery - she collapsed. But to me a vital question remains unanswered: why, after so many different entities raised concerns over the use of the carbon composite hull, did leadership forge ahead anyway? The fact that the CEO was aboard?would seem to indicate he was confident in his hull, but why? Did he feel he knew better than all these other folks who raised concerns? If it were one or two people who disagreed, that would be one matter, but it would seem there's a list a mile long of those who raised serious safety concerns (including 'amateur builders' like Karl Stanley). Did any of the passengers on this voyage understand?the highly controversial?decision?to build with carbon fiber? The highly experienced Frenchman who had logged so much time at Titanic was unconcerned? As Carsten points out, wouldn't the guy have been suspicious?that there was no second submersible or at least ROV for mission redundancy?? Alan, I totally understand the practicality of using?off-the-shelf parts and components for non-critical applications, but as Alec suggests, it's a matter of optics. After this episode, when the USCG asks to take a look at one of our homebuilt submersibles and sees a game controller, what are they going to think of? Among the many tasteless jokes being tossed around online in the wake of this tragedy, one of the more G-rated ones went something like this: The only time 'homemade' and 'submarine' should be used in the same sentence is when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen! This is a PR disaster for the homebuilt submersible community. ~ Doug S. ?? On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:57?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I agree.? That's the bottom line. Jon On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Ala - the question is not which controller your sub has. The question is how many paying Guest you have..?vbr Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic siteDatum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi Doug,my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules.All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck.If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote:_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 15:37:04 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 19:37:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1457330251.4311045.1687547628865@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> <1687524530272.2860049.37ee76e738b1942749e56b5e338aae01f126fb58@spica.telekom.de> <16160885.4113090.1687525008732@mail.yahoo.com> <519358007.2373720.1687544494924@mail.yahoo.com> <1457330251.4311045.1687547628865@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47017734.2405577.1687549024411@mail.yahoo.com> Not saving the drowning child? Are you kidding me? -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 3:13 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site What I would like to know is, why all the people and agencies writing letters to Ocean Gate did not go one step further. ?Why did they not go to court to force the issue. ?Its likely they could not stop the project, but it is possible, maybe? that a judge would make an order to force OceanGate to disclose the concerns from all the agencies in the disclaimer . ?Why did the agencies not send a letter to the passengers to warn them? ?I guess they could say, "its not our job to police private operators". Thats like not saving the drowning child in the pool because you warned the child and you are not the life guard. ? I think Ocean Gate acted very irresponsibly, but I also think the certification bodies ?fell asleep at the switch. ?Hank On Friday, June 23, 2023, 12:36:35 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I wonder how concerned we should be about operators like Karl Stanley, who is similarly conducting commercial dives outside any regulatory framework, in a vessel which is technically ineligible for class due to departures from the society rules. Does he get a pass because of his safety record, or is there a line to be drawn somewhere? Sean Sent from Proton Mail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 12:21, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Doug, Trying to apply logic here won't work. When I was co-chair of the manned underwater vehicle committee at the Marine Technology Society, our chairman Will Kohnen wrote what was essentially a letter of censure to OceanGate and Rush. I critiqued that letter and was one of the 38 signatories. Stockton Rush ignored that letter. Our opinion simply didn't suit him. He lumped us all into the bunch-of-50-year-old-white-guys category, and dismissed us out of hand. Of course, you can understand his skepticism. We only had collectively about a thousand years of experience and a jillion dives between us. So, what did we know? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site So the mysterious disappearance of the Titan submersible is no longer?a mystery - she collapsed. But to me a vital question remains unanswered: why, after so many different entities raised concerns over the use of the carbon composite hull, did leadership forge ahead anyway? The fact that the CEO was aboard?would seem to indicate he was confident in his hull, but why? Did he feel he knew better than all these other folks who raised concerns? If it were one or two people who disagreed, that would be one matter, but it would seem there's a list a mile long of those who raised serious safety concerns (including 'amateur builders' like Karl Stanley). Did any of the passengers on this voyage understand?the highly controversial?decision?to build with carbon fiber? The highly experienced Frenchman who had logged so much time at Titanic was unconcerned? As Carsten points out, wouldn't the guy have been suspicious?that there was no second submersible or at least ROV for mission redundancy?? Alan, I totally understand the practicality of using?off-the-shelf parts and components for non-critical applications, but as Alec suggests, it's a matter of optics. After this episode, when the USCG asks to take a look at one of our homebuilt submersibles and sees a game controller, what are they going to think of? Among the many tasteless jokes being tossed around online in the wake of this tragedy, one of the more G-rated ones went something like this: The only time 'homemade' and 'submarine' should be used in the same sentence is when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen! This is a PR disaster for the homebuilt submersible community. ~ Doug S. ?? On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:57?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I agree.? That's the bottom line. Jon On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Ala - the question is not which controller your sub has. The question is how many paying Guest you have..?vbr Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic siteDatum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi Doug,my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules.All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck.If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote:_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 15:43:11 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 19:43:11 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1457330251.4311045.1687547628865@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> <1687524530272.2860049.37ee76e738b1942749e56b5e338aae01f126fb58@spica.telekom.de> <16160885.4113090.1687525008732@mail.yahoo.com> <519358007.2373720.1687544494924@mail.yahoo.com> <1457330251.4311045.1687547628865@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I imagine that the simple answer to the court question is lack of standing. Without having suffered a verifiable injury, the best a third party can do legally is submit an amicus brief in a case levied by another party who has standing. The alternative to lawsuit is of course legislation, and perhaps enough weight could have been brought to bear on lawmakers to mandate classification. OceanGate is, after all, based in Everett, Washington, USA. You would have to be very careful not to over-alarm the powers that be and only have such requirements apply to commercial operators though, lest PSubs be accordingly legislated out of existence. There is also a broader ecosystem of perfectly safe vessels which, for whatever reason, were never classed, that would be impacted. Maybe the intervention angle would have more appropriately been through something like OSHA / WCB? If you can't point to a specific law being violated though, that's a tough sell. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 13:13, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > What I would like to know is, why all the people and agencies writing letters to Ocean Gate did not go one step further. Why did they not go to court to force the issue. Its likely they could not stop the project, but it is possible, maybe? that a judge would make an order to force OceanGate to disclose the concerns from all the agencies in the disclaimer . Why did the agencies not send a letter to the passengers to warn them? I guess they could say, "its not our job to police private operators". Thats like not saving the drowning child in the pool because you warned the child and you are not the life guard. I think Ocean Gate acted very irresponsibly, but I also think the certification bodies fell asleep at the switch. > Hank > On Friday, June 23, 2023, 12:36:35 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I wonder how concerned we should be about operators like Karl Stanley, who is similarly conducting commercial dives outside any regulatory framework, in a vessel which is technically ineligible for class due to departures from the society rules. Does he get a pass because of his safety record, or is there a line to be drawn somewhere? > > Sean > > Sent from Proton Mail mobile > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jun. 23, 2023, 12:21, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > >> Doug, >> >> Trying to apply logic here won't work. When I was co-chair of the manned underwater vehicle committee at the Marine Technology Society, our chairman Will Kohnen wrote what was essentially a letter of censure to OceanGate and Rush. I critiqued that letter and was one of the 38 signatories. Stockton Rush ignored that letter. Our opinion simply didn't suit him. He lumped us all into the bunch-of-50-year-old-white-guys category, and dismissed us out of hand. Of course, you can understand his skepticism. We only had collectively about a thousand years of experience and a jillion dives between us. So, what did we know? >> >> Vance >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >> Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 1:22 pm >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >> >> So the mysterious disappearance of the Titan submersible is no longer a mystery - she collapsed. But to me a vital question remains unanswered: why, after so many different entities raised concerns over the use of the carbon composite hull, did leadership forge ahead anyway? The fact that the CEO was aboard would seem to indicate he was confident in his hull, but why? Did he feel he knew better than all these other folks who raised concerns? If it were one or two people who disagreed, that would be one matter, but it would seem there's a list a mile long of those who raised serious safety concerns (including 'amateur builders' like Karl Stanley). Did any of the passengers on this voyage understand the highly controversial decision to build with carbon fiber? The highly experienced Frenchman who had logged so much time at Titanic was unconcerned? As Carsten points out, wouldn't the guy have been suspicious that there was no second submersible or at least ROV for mission redundancy? >> >> Alan, I totally understand the practicality of using off-the-shelf parts and components for non-critical applications, but as Alec suggests, it's a matter of optics. After this episode, when the USCG asks to take a look at one of our homebuilt submersibles and sees a game controller, what are they going to think of? Among the many tasteless jokes being tossed around online in the wake of this tragedy, one of the more G-rated ones went something like this: The only time 'homemade' and 'submarine' should be used in the same sentence is when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen! This is a PR disaster for the homebuilt submersible community. ~ Doug S. >> >> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:57?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> I agree. That's the bottom line. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> Hi Ala >>> - the question is not which controller your sub has. >>> The question is how many paying Guest you have.. >>> vbr Carsten >>> >>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >>> Datum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200 >>> Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" >>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>> >>> Hi Doug, >>> my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules. >>> All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck. >>> If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery. >>> Alan >>> >>> [Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android](https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_) >>> >>>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles >>>> wrote: >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> ? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 15:58:17 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 14:58:17 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 15:59:26 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 13:59:26 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 16:48:42 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 14:48:42 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 17:24:25 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 21:24:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095222646.2431405.1687555465435@mail.yahoo.com> It's apples and oranges, Hank.Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 4:48 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Sean, I think a big enough fuss from the right people could have made a difference. ?Maybe they did all the things I am asking about.?Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2023, at 1:59 PM, hank pronk wrote: ? I am not sure who said are you kidding me. ?I have been in this exact situation. ?I came across a fellow jacking up his own house, I introduced myself and had a look around. He was destined for disaster. ?I ?offered him equipment and advice witch he excepted. ?If he did not, I would have called WCB the building authority and building inspector. ?I would have made every effort including doing the job for him for free. ?It is more important to save this guys life than worry about money or competition. ? ?Just last year, same deal, guy was gonna move his own house. ?Good I showed up, I ended up loaning him house moving Dollie?s etc for free. ? Again don?t know how I am responding to. ?Must ?have been a pool side spectator. ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2023, at 1:43 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I imagine that the simple answer to the court question is lack of standing. Without having suffered a verifiable injury, the best a third party can do legally is submit an amicus brief in a case levied by another party who has standing. The alternative to lawsuit is of course legislation, and perhaps enough weight could have been brought to bear on lawmakers to mandate classification. OceanGate is, after all, based in Everett, Washington, USA. You would have to be very careful not to over-alarm the powers that be and only have such requirements apply to commercial operators though, lest PSubs be accordingly legislated out of existence. There is also a broader ecosystem of perfectly safe vessels which, for whatever reason, were never classed, that would be impacted. Maybe the intervention angle would have more appropriately been through something like OSHA / WCB? If you can't point to a specific law being violated though, that's a tough sell. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 13:13, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: What I would like to know is, why all the people and agencies writing letters to Ocean Gate did not go one step further. ?Why did they not go to court to force the issue. ?Its likely they could not stop the project, but it is possible, maybe? that a judge would make an order to force OceanGate to disclose the concerns from all the agencies in the disclaimer . ?Why did the agencies not send a letter to the passengers to warn them? ?I guess they could say, "its not our job to police private operators". Thats like not saving the drowning child in the pool because you warned the child and you are not the life guard. ? I think Ocean Gate acted very irresponsibly, but I also think the certification bodies ?fell asleep at the switch. ?Hank On Friday, June 23, 2023, 12:36:35 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I wonder how concerned we should be about operators like Karl Stanley, who is similarly conducting commercial dives outside any regulatory framework, in a vessel which is technically ineligible for class due to departures from the society rules. Does he get a pass because of his safety record, or is there a line to be drawn somewhere? Sean Sent from Proton Mail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 12:21, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Doug, Trying to apply logic here won't work. When I was co-chair of the manned underwater vehicle committee at the Marine Technology Society, our chairman Will Kohnen wrote what was essentially a letter of censure to OceanGate and Rush. I critiqued that letter and was one of the 38 signatories. Stockton Rush ignored that letter. Our opinion simply didn't suit him. He lumped us all into the bunch-of-50-year-old-white-guys category, and dismissed us out of hand. Of course, you can understand his skepticism. We only had collectively about a thousand years of experience and a jillion dives between us. So, what did we know? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site So the mysterious disappearance of the Titan submersible is no longer?a mystery - she collapsed. But to me a vital question remains unanswered: why, after so many different entities raised concerns over the use of the carbon composite hull, did leadership forge ahead anyway? The fact that the CEO was aboard?would seem to indicate he was confident in his hull, but why? Did he feel he knew better than all these other folks who raised concerns? If it were one or two people who disagreed, that would be one matter, but it would seem there's a list a mile long of those who raised serious safety concerns (including 'amateur builders' like Karl Stanley). Did any of the passengers on this voyage understand?the highly controversial?decision?to build with carbon fiber? The highly experienced Frenchman who had logged so much time at Titanic was unconcerned? As Carsten points out, wouldn't the guy have been suspicious?that there was no second submersible or at least ROV for mission redundancy?? Alan, I totally understand the practicality of using?off-the-shelf parts and components for non-critical applications, but as Alec suggests, it's a matter of optics. After this episode, when the USCG asks to take a look at one of our homebuilt submersibles and sees a game controller, what are they going to think of? Among the many tasteless jokes being tossed around online in the wake of this tragedy, one of the more G-rated ones went something like this: The only time 'homemade' and 'submarine' should be used in the same sentence is when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen! This is a PR disaster for the homebuilt submersible community. ~ Doug S. ?? On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:57?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I agree.? That's the bottom line. Jon On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Ala - the question is not which controller your sub has. The question is how many paying Guest you have..?vbr Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic siteDatum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi Doug,my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules.All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck.If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote:_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 17:28:46 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 21:28:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1095222646.2431405.1687555465435@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1095222646.2431405.1687555465435@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <518712767.4386005.1687555726922@mail.yahoo.com> How so Vance,You do all that you can to prevent a disaster. ?With the massive resources available to the certification bodies, they could contact congressmen etc. ?Here in Canada we would go to our MLA and we get results. ?Did they do all they could beyond strongly worded letters? ?Just asking.Hank On Friday, June 23, 2023, 03:24:42 PM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It's apples and oranges, Hank.Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 4:48 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Sean, I think a big enough fuss from the right people could have made a difference. ?Maybe they did all the things I am asking about.?Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2023, at 1:59 PM, hank pronk wrote: ? I am not sure who said are you kidding me. ?I have been in this exact situation. ?I came across a fellow jacking up his own house, I introduced myself and had a look around. He was destined for disaster. ?I ?offered him equipment and advice witch he excepted. ?If he did not, I would have called WCB the building authority and building inspector. ?I would have made every effort including doing the job for him for free. ?It is more important to save this guys life than worry about money or competition. ? ?Just last year, same deal, guy was gonna move his own house. ?Good I showed up, I ended up loaning him house moving Dollie?s etc for free. ? Again don?t know how I am responding to. ?Must ?have been a pool side spectator. ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2023, at 1:43 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I imagine that the simple answer to the court question is lack of standing. Without having suffered a verifiable injury, the best a third party can do legally is submit an amicus brief in a case levied by another party who has standing. The alternative to lawsuit is of course legislation, and perhaps enough weight could have been brought to bear on lawmakers to mandate classification. OceanGate is, after all, based in Everett, Washington, USA. You would have to be very careful not to over-alarm the powers that be and only have such requirements apply to commercial operators though, lest PSubs be accordingly legislated out of existence. There is also a broader ecosystem of perfectly safe vessels which, for whatever reason, were never classed, that would be impacted. Maybe the intervention angle would have more appropriately been through something like OSHA / WCB? If you can't point to a specific law being violated though, that's a tough sell. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 13:13, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: What I would like to know is, why all the people and agencies writing letters to Ocean Gate did not go one step further. ?Why did they not go to court to force the issue. ?Its likely they could not stop the project, but it is possible, maybe? that a judge would make an order to force OceanGate to disclose the concerns from all the agencies in the disclaimer . ?Why did the agencies not send a letter to the passengers to warn them? ?I guess they could say, "its not our job to police private operators". Thats like not saving the drowning child in the pool because you warned the child and you are not the life guard. ? I think Ocean Gate acted very irresponsibly, but I also think the certification bodies ?fell asleep at the switch. ?Hank On Friday, June 23, 2023, 12:36:35 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I wonder how concerned we should be about operators like Karl Stanley, who is similarly conducting commercial dives outside any regulatory framework, in a vessel which is technically ineligible for class due to departures from the society rules. Does he get a pass because of his safety record, or is there a line to be drawn somewhere? Sean Sent from Proton Mail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 12:21, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Doug, Trying to apply logic here won't work. When I was co-chair of the manned underwater vehicle committee at the Marine Technology Society, our chairman Will Kohnen wrote what was essentially a letter of censure to OceanGate and Rush. I critiqued that letter and was one of the 38 signatories. Stockton Rush ignored that letter. Our opinion simply didn't suit him. He lumped us all into the bunch-of-50-year-old-white-guys category, and dismissed us out of hand. Of course, you can understand his skepticism. We only had collectively about a thousand years of experience and a jillion dives between us. So, what did we know? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site So the mysterious disappearance of the Titan submersible is no longer?a mystery - she collapsed. But to me a vital question remains unanswered: why, after so many different entities raised concerns over the use of the carbon composite hull, did leadership forge ahead anyway? The fact that the CEO was aboard?would seem to indicate he was confident in his hull, but why? Did he feel he knew better than all these other folks who raised concerns? If it were one or two people who disagreed, that would be one matter, but it would seem there's a list a mile long of those who raised serious safety concerns (including 'amateur builders' like Karl Stanley). Did any of the passengers on this voyage understand?the highly controversial?decision?to build with carbon fiber? The highly experienced Frenchman who had logged so much time at Titanic was unconcerned? As Carsten points out, wouldn't the guy have been suspicious?that there was no second submersible or at least ROV for mission redundancy?? Alan, I totally understand the practicality of using?off-the-shelf parts and components for non-critical applications, but as Alec suggests, it's a matter of optics. After this episode, when the USCG asks to take a look at one of our homebuilt submersibles and sees a game controller, what are they going to think of? Among the many tasteless jokes being tossed around online in the wake of this tragedy, one of the more G-rated ones went something like this: The only time 'homemade' and 'submarine' should be used in the same sentence is when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen! This is a PR disaster for the homebuilt submersible community. ~ Doug S. ?? On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:57?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I agree.? That's the bottom line. Jon On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Ala - the question is not which controller your sub has. The question is how many paying Guest you have..?vbr Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic siteDatum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi Doug,my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules.All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck.If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote:_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 17:31:43 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 21:31:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <518712767.4386005.1687555726922@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1095222646.2431405.1687555465435@mail.yahoo.com> <518712767.4386005.1687555726922@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <588313081.4368162.1687555903153@mail.yahoo.com> Now I am hearing famous people say they would never get in that thing. ?Well what did they do to save the passengers? ?If they were so sure it would fail, they should have used all their resources to stop it from diving.Hank On Friday, June 23, 2023, 03:29:04 PM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: How so Vance,You do all that you can to prevent a disaster. ?With the massive resources available to the certification bodies, they could contact congressmen etc. ?Here in Canada we would go to our MLA and we get results. ?Did they do all they could beyond strongly worded letters? ?Just asking.Hank On Friday, June 23, 2023, 03:24:42 PM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It's apples and oranges, Hank.Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 4:48 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Sean, I think a big enough fuss from the right people could have made a difference. ?Maybe they did all the things I am asking about.?Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2023, at 1:59 PM, hank pronk wrote: ? I am not sure who said are you kidding me. ?I have been in this exact situation. ?I came across a fellow jacking up his own house, I introduced myself and had a look around. He was destined for disaster. ?I ?offered him equipment and advice witch he excepted. ?If he did not, I would have called WCB the building authority and building inspector. ?I would have made every effort including doing the job for him for free. ?It is more important to save this guys life than worry about money or competition. ? ?Just last year, same deal, guy was gonna move his own house. ?Good I showed up, I ended up loaning him house moving Dollie?s etc for free. ? Again don?t know how I am responding to. ?Must ?have been a pool side spectator. ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2023, at 1:43 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I imagine that the simple answer to the court question is lack of standing. Without having suffered a verifiable injury, the best a third party can do legally is submit an amicus brief in a case levied by another party who has standing. The alternative to lawsuit is of course legislation, and perhaps enough weight could have been brought to bear on lawmakers to mandate classification. OceanGate is, after all, based in Everett, Washington, USA. You would have to be very careful not to over-alarm the powers that be and only have such requirements apply to commercial operators though, lest PSubs be accordingly legislated out of existence. There is also a broader ecosystem of perfectly safe vessels which, for whatever reason, were never classed, that would be impacted. Maybe the intervention angle would have more appropriately been through something like OSHA / WCB? If you can't point to a specific law being violated though, that's a tough sell. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 13:13, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: What I would like to know is, why all the people and agencies writing letters to Ocean Gate did not go one step further. ?Why did they not go to court to force the issue. ?Its likely they could not stop the project, but it is possible, maybe? that a judge would make an order to force OceanGate to disclose the concerns from all the agencies in the disclaimer . ?Why did the agencies not send a letter to the passengers to warn them? ?I guess they could say, "its not our job to police private operators". Thats like not saving the drowning child in the pool because you warned the child and you are not the life guard. ? I think Ocean Gate acted very irresponsibly, but I also think the certification bodies ?fell asleep at the switch. ?Hank On Friday, June 23, 2023, 12:36:35 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I wonder how concerned we should be about operators like Karl Stanley, who is similarly conducting commercial dives outside any regulatory framework, in a vessel which is technically ineligible for class due to departures from the society rules. Does he get a pass because of his safety record, or is there a line to be drawn somewhere? Sean Sent from Proton Mail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 12:21, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Doug, Trying to apply logic here won't work. When I was co-chair of the manned underwater vehicle committee at the Marine Technology Society, our chairman Will Kohnen wrote what was essentially a letter of censure to OceanGate and Rush. I critiqued that letter and was one of the 38 signatories. Stockton Rush ignored that letter. Our opinion simply didn't suit him. He lumped us all into the bunch-of-50-year-old-white-guys category, and dismissed us out of hand. Of course, you can understand his skepticism. We only had collectively about a thousand years of experience and a jillion dives between us. So, what did we know? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site So the mysterious disappearance of the Titan submersible is no longer?a mystery - she collapsed. But to me a vital question remains unanswered: why, after so many different entities raised concerns over the use of the carbon composite hull, did leadership forge ahead anyway? The fact that the CEO was aboard?would seem to indicate he was confident in his hull, but why? Did he feel he knew better than all these other folks who raised concerns? If it were one or two people who disagreed, that would be one matter, but it would seem there's a list a mile long of those who raised serious safety concerns (including 'amateur builders' like Karl Stanley). Did any of the passengers on this voyage understand?the highly controversial?decision?to build with carbon fiber? The highly experienced Frenchman who had logged so much time at Titanic was unconcerned? As Carsten points out, wouldn't the guy have been suspicious?that there was no second submersible or at least ROV for mission redundancy?? Alan, I totally understand the practicality of using?off-the-shelf parts and components for non-critical applications, but as Alec suggests, it's a matter of optics. After this episode, when the USCG asks to take a look at one of our homebuilt submersibles and sees a game controller, what are they going to think of? Among the many tasteless jokes being tossed around online in the wake of this tragedy, one of the more G-rated ones went something like this: The only time 'homemade' and 'submarine' should be used in the same sentence is when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen! This is a PR disaster for the homebuilt submersible community. ~ Doug S. ?? On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:57?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I agree.? That's the bottom line. Jon On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Ala - the question is not which controller your sub has. The question is how many paying Guest you have..?vbr Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic siteDatum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi Doug,my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules.All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck.If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote:_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 18:22:43 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 22:22:43 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <518712767.4386005.1687555726922@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1095222646.2431405.1687555465435@mail.yahoo.com> <518712767.4386005.1687555726922@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well, I think you have more faith in your MLAs than I do, or maybe I'm just hopelessly cynical. Regardless, it looks like there may be some action on this after all which could potentially result in change. The Canadian TSB is apparently investigating the actions of the Canadian-flagged vessel Polar Prince, which towed the Titan barge to site. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 15:28, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > How so Vance, > You do all that you can to prevent a disaster. With the massive resources available to the certification bodies, they could contact congressmen etc. Here in Canada we would go to our MLA and we get results. Did they do all they could beyond strongly worded letters? Just asking. > Hank > > On Friday, June 23, 2023, 03:24:42 PM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > It's apples and oranges, Hank. > Vance > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 4:48 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Sean, I think a big enough fuss from the right people could have made a difference. Maybe they did all the things I am asking about. > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 23, 2023, at 1:59 PM, hank pronk wrote: > >> ? > > I am not sure who said are you kidding me. I have been in this exact situation. I came across a fellow jacking up his own house, I introduced myself and had a look around. He was destined for disaster. I offered him equipment and advice witch he excepted. If he did not, I would have called WCB the building authority and building inspector. I would have made every effort including doing the job for him for free. It is more important to save this guys life than worry about money or competition. Just last year, same deal, guy was gonna move his own house. Good I showed up, I ended up loaning him house moving Dollie?s etc for free. Again don?t know how I am responding to. Must have been a pool side spectator. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 23, 2023, at 1:43 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> ?I imagine that the simple answer to the court question is lack of standing. Without having suffered a verifiable injury, the best a third party can do legally is submit an amicus brief in a case levied by another party who has standing. The alternative to lawsuit is of course legislation, and perhaps enough weight could have been brought to bear on lawmakers to mandate classification. OceanGate is, after all, based in Everett, Washington, USA. You would have to be very careful not to over-alarm the powers that be and only have such requirements apply to commercial operators though, lest PSubs be accordingly legislated out of existence. There is also a broader ecosystem of perfectly safe vessels which, for whatever reason, were never classed, that would be impacted. Maybe the intervention angle would have more appropriately been through something like OSHA / WCB? If you can't point to a specific law being violated though, that's a tough sell. >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Jun. 23, 2023, 13:13, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> What I would like to know is, why all the people and agencies writing letters to Ocean Gate did not go one step further. Why did they not go to court to force the issue. Its likely they could not stop the project, but it is possible, maybe? that a judge would make an order to force OceanGate to disclose the concerns from all the agencies in the disclaimer . Why did the agencies not send a letter to the passengers to warn them? I guess they could say, "its not our job to police private operators". Thats like not saving the drowning child in the pool because you warned the child and you are not the life guard. I think Ocean Gate acted very irresponsibly, but I also think the certification bodies fell asleep at the switch. >>> Hank >>> On Friday, June 23, 2023, 12:36:35 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>> I wonder how concerned we should be about operators like Karl Stanley, who is similarly conducting commercial dives outside any regulatory framework, in a vessel which is technically ineligible for class due to departures from the society rules. Does he get a pass because of his safety record, or is there a line to be drawn somewhere? >>> >>> Sean >>> >>> Sent from Proton Mail mobile >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> On Jun. 23, 2023, 12:21, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Doug, >>>> >>>> Trying to apply logic here won't work. When I was co-chair of the manned underwater vehicle committee at the Marine Technology Society, our chairman Will Kohnen wrote what was essentially a letter of censure to OceanGate and Rush. I critiqued that letter and was one of the 38 signatories. Stockton Rush ignored that letter. Our opinion simply didn't suit him. He lumped us all into the bunch-of-50-year-old-white-guys category, and dismissed us out of hand. Of course, you can understand his skepticism. We only had collectively about a thousand years of experience and a jillion dives between us. So, what did we know? >>>> >>>> Vance >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion >>>> Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 1:22 pm >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >>>> >>>> So the mysterious disappearance of the Titan submersible is no longer a mystery - she collapsed. But to me a vital question remains unanswered: why, after so many different entities raised concerns over the use of the carbon composite hull, did leadership forge ahead anyway? The fact that the CEO was aboard would seem to indicate he was confident in his hull, but why? Did he feel he knew better than all these other folks who raised concerns? If it were one or two people who disagreed, that would be one matter, but it would seem there's a list a mile long of those who raised serious safety concerns (including 'amateur builders' like Karl Stanley). Did any of the passengers on this voyage understand the highly controversial decision to build with carbon fiber? The highly experienced Frenchman who had logged so much time at Titanic was unconcerned? As Carsten points out, wouldn't the guy have been suspicious that there was no second submersible or at least ROV for mission redundancy? >>>> >>>> Alan, I totally understand the practicality of using off-the-shelf parts and components for non-critical applications, but as Alec suggests, it's a matter of optics. After this episode, when the USCG asks to take a look at one of our homebuilt submersibles and sees a game controller, what are they going to think of? Among the many tasteless jokes being tossed around online in the wake of this tragedy, one of the more G-rated ones went something like this: The only time 'homemade' and 'submarine' should be used in the same sentence is when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen! This is a PR disaster for the homebuilt submersible community. ~ Doug S. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:57?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree. That's the bottom line. >>>>> >>>>> Jon >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Ala >>>>> - the question is not which controller your sub has. >>>>> The question is how many paying Guest you have.. >>>>> vbr Carsten >>>>> >>>>> -----Original-Nachricht----- >>>>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >>>>> Datum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200 >>>>> Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" >>>>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" >>>>> >>>>> Hi Doug, >>>>> my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules. >>>>> All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck. >>>>> If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery. >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> [Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android](https://mail.onelink.me/107872968?pid=nativeplacement&c=Global_Acquisition_YMktg_315_Internal_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=Global_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100000604&af_sub5=EmailSignature__Static_) >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 18:34:06 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 22:34:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <588313081.4368162.1687555903153@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1095222646.2431405.1687555465435@mail.yahoo.com> <518712767.4386005.1687555726922@mail.yahoo.com> <588313081.4368162.1687555903153@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <696792617.4400868.1687559646368@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, I am with you on trying to stop people killinging themselves. Years ago we had a post about a Chinese oil barrel submarine that the builder said could go to 30ft. We all said 15ft at the most. I contacted the reporter who did the article & conveyed our concerns plus gave a link to psubs group builds page to show our expertise. The reporter said he was concerned when he saw the sub & told the builder of our concerns & showed him our web site. The Chinese builder was duly impressed and took heed.In this case Stockton Rush was pretty capable, and although people were concerned about the carbon fibre hull they probably didnt know the full details of his research analysis & testing, and possibly weren't 100% sure it would fail.?Maybe if he had gone a couple of inches thicker there wouldnt have been a problem.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 9:33 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 19:59:06 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 23:59:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1095222646.2431405.1687555465435@mail.yahoo.com> <518712767.4386005.1687555726922@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1146009307.546096.1687564746924@mail.yahoo.com> Sean,?I do have faith, because my son was waiting forever to get his restricted fire arm licence. ?He called our MLA and the next day got a call to go pick it up. ?Maybe we have the only good one?Hank On Friday, June 23, 2023, 04:23:09 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Well, I think you have more faith in your MLAs than I do, or maybe I'm just hopelessly cynical. Regardless, it looks like there may be some action on this after all which could potentially result in change. The Canadian TSB is apparently investigating the actions of the Canadian-flagged vessel Polar Prince, which towed the Titan barge to site. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 15:28, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: How so Vance,You do all that you can to prevent a disaster. ?With the massive resources available to the certification bodies, they could contact congressmen etc. ?Here in Canada we would go to our MLA and we get results. ?Did they do all they could beyond strongly worded letters? ?Just asking.Hank On Friday, June 23, 2023, 03:24:42 PM MDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: It's apples and oranges, Hank.Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 4:48 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Sean, I think a big enough fuss from the right people could have made a difference. ?Maybe they did all the things I am asking about.?Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2023, at 1:59 PM, hank pronk wrote: ? I am not sure who said are you kidding me. ?I have been in this exact situation. ?I came across a fellow jacking up his own house, I introduced myself and had a look around. He was destined for disaster. ?I ?offered him equipment and advice witch he excepted. ?If he did not, I would have called WCB the building authority and building inspector. ?I would have made every effort including doing the job for him for free. ?It is more important to save this guys life than worry about money or competition. ? ?Just last year, same deal, guy was gonna move his own house. ?Good I showed up, I ended up loaning him house moving Dollie?s etc for free. ? Again don?t know how I am responding to. ?Must ?have been a pool side spectator. ? Sent from my iPhone On Jun 23, 2023, at 1:43 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?I imagine that the simple answer to the court question is lack of standing. Without having suffered a verifiable injury, the best a third party can do legally is submit an amicus brief in a case levied by another party who has standing. The alternative to lawsuit is of course legislation, and perhaps enough weight could have been brought to bear on lawmakers to mandate classification. OceanGate is, after all, based in Everett, Washington, USA. You would have to be very careful not to over-alarm the powers that be and only have such requirements apply to commercial operators though, lest PSubs be accordingly legislated out of existence. There is also a broader ecosystem of perfectly safe vessels which, for whatever reason, were never classed, that would be impacted. Maybe the intervention angle would have more appropriately been through something like OSHA / WCB? If you can't point to a specific law being violated though, that's a tough sell. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 13:13, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: What I would like to know is, why all the people and agencies writing letters to Ocean Gate did not go one step further. ?Why did they not go to court to force the issue. ?Its likely they could not stop the project, but it is possible, maybe? that a judge would make an order to force OceanGate to disclose the concerns from all the agencies in the disclaimer . ?Why did the agencies not send a letter to the passengers to warn them? ?I guess they could say, "its not our job to police private operators". Thats like not saving the drowning child in the pool because you warned the child and you are not the life guard. ? I think Ocean Gate acted very irresponsibly, but I also think the certification bodies ?fell asleep at the switch. ?Hank On Friday, June 23, 2023, 12:36:35 PM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I wonder how concerned we should be about operators like Karl Stanley, who is similarly conducting commercial dives outside any regulatory framework, in a vessel which is technically ineligible for class due to departures from the society rules. Does he get a pass because of his safety record, or is there a line to be drawn somewhere? Sean Sent from Proton Mail mobile -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 12:21, via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Doug, Trying to apply logic here won't work. When I was co-chair of the manned underwater vehicle committee at the Marine Technology Society, our chairman Will Kohnen wrote what was essentially a letter of censure to OceanGate and Rush. I critiqued that letter and was one of the 38 signatories. Stockton Rush ignored that letter. Our opinion simply didn't suit him. He lumped us all into the bunch-of-50-year-old-white-guys category, and dismissed us out of hand. Of course, you can understand his skepticism. We only had collectively about a thousand years of experience and a jillion dives between us. So, what did we know? Vance -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Fri, Jun 23, 2023 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site So the mysterious disappearance of the Titan submersible is no longer?a mystery - she collapsed. But to me a vital question remains unanswered: why, after so many different entities raised concerns over the use of the carbon composite hull, did leadership forge ahead anyway? The fact that the CEO was aboard?would seem to indicate he was confident in his hull, but why? Did he feel he knew better than all these other folks who raised concerns? If it were one or two people who disagreed, that would be one matter, but it would seem there's a list a mile long of those who raised serious safety concerns (including 'amateur builders' like Karl Stanley). Did any of the passengers on this voyage understand?the highly controversial?decision?to build with carbon fiber? The highly experienced Frenchman who had logged so much time at Titanic was unconcerned? As Carsten points out, wouldn't the guy have been suspicious?that there was no second submersible or at least ROV for mission redundancy?? Alan, I totally understand the practicality of using?off-the-shelf parts and components for non-critical applications, but as Alec suggests, it's a matter of optics. After this episode, when the USCG asks to take a look at one of our homebuilt submersibles and sees a game controller, what are they going to think of? Among the many tasteless jokes being tossed around online in the wake of this tragedy, one of the more G-rated ones went something like this: The only time 'homemade' and 'submarine' should be used in the same sentence is when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen! This is a PR disaster for the homebuilt submersible community. ~ Doug S. ?? On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:57?AM Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I agree.? That's the bottom line. Jon On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 08:50:21 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Ala - the question is not which controller your sub has. The question is how many paying Guest you have..?vbr Carsten???-----Original-Nachricht-----Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic siteDatum: 2023-06-23T08:39:07+0200Von: "Alan James via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ???Hi Doug,my ambient sub had a game controller controlling speed, steering, ballast & a few other things. They have been tested and abused by several million kids. :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules.All a bit strange as they were only half way to the wreck.If the hull had have imploded it would have failed at maybe 1/4 of its crush depth. If power failed they would have gone to the surface, & should have had surface coms that would work with a back up battery.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 at 12:41 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote:_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 20:09:47 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 08:09:47 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <2024664532.4078437.1687512534536@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <09E21835-FA95-4BCE-BBB5-FF8EEF02E0C5@gmail.com> <2024664532.4078437.1687512534536@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9b8ad574-8b8e-4c74-c3ac-01dd8dd618e7@archivale.com> On 6/23/2023 5:28 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I was thinking about the carbon fibre hull & wondered whether the heat > differential from the outside to the inside on the 5" thick hull had > anything to do with the Titan crushing. > At the wreck the water temperature is around 3?C & inside the sub it > may be 24C (guessing). The carbon fibre is a great insulator so the > outer face of the hull could be relatively stiffer due to the cold & > take up more of the pressure than the more softer inner layers. > Through cycling the outer layers could weaken. This would be unique to > the submarine environment because I dont know anywhere else they would > use 5" thick carbon fibre in freezing temperatures. Aircraft come to mind. A wing spar of a large airplane flying at high altitude. Marc de Piolenc > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 at 6:48 pm, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 20:12:20 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 08:12:20 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The power of ignorance - at least when leading the ignorant. Marc On 6/23/2023 7:22 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > The controller is not something I would use, mine is physically much > tougher and has things like O-ring seals on all the pots and switches. > Nonetheless, I found it amazing the degree to which the "experts" > latched onto that and anything else that was off the shelf, as if the > concept of using OTS components were some sort of cardinal sin.?The > controller, the cabin lights from Camping World, and recycled pipes > for ballast were all treated as obvious evidence of bad engineering or > even a total scam. Who cares what your ballast was in a previous life, > if it weighs what you need it to weigh? Moving forward we not only > have to look at whether OTS?parts work and are reliable, but also how > they will be perceived. I'm not just ranting against the misinformed > TikTok experts, I think this is an actual lesson for us. Imagine a > boat ramp conversation with some local authority right now, when you > explain that you control the sub with a game controller. llion kids. > :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if > it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have > done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can > cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't > certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules. > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 20:31:37 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2023 20:31:37 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Point taken Vance, the guy must've been real hard-headed. That can be a really good thing or a really bad thing, situation dependent. True to a captain, he went down with his ship, but I'm sorry that the other gents went too. My mother's heart hurt when she learned of the father and son on board together... she knows that another wife and mother is crying out in loss right now. Greg S. - don't listen to them! You're going to get that sub in the water one of these days. We can overcome the negative press. Karl Stanley is on CNN's Anderson Cooper show right now giving an interview on his experience with Oceangate. He's fighting the good fight, separating the rest of us from this catastrophe. ~ Doug S. On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:12?PM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > The power of ignorance - at least when leading the ignorant. > > Marc > > On 6/23/2023 7:22 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > The controller is not something I would use, mine is physically much > > tougher and has things like O-ring seals on all the pots and switches. > > Nonetheless, I found it amazing the degree to which the "experts" > > latched onto that and anything else that was off the shelf, as if the > > concept of using OTS components were some sort of cardinal sin. The > > controller, the cabin lights from Camping World, and recycled pipes > > for ballast were all treated as obvious evidence of bad engineering or > > even a total scam. Who cares what your ballast was in a previous life, > > if it weighs what you need it to weigh? Moving forward we not only > > have to look at whether OTS parts work and are reliable, but also how > > they will be perceived. I'm not just ranting against the misinformed > > TikTok experts, I think this is an actual lesson for us. Imagine a > > boat ramp conversation with some local authority right now, when you > > explain that you control the sub with a game controller. llion kids. > > :) . But aside from that I had back up for all those functions so if > > it failed the sub still operated. And I am sure Oceangate would have > > done the same. ABS & DNV-GL have a principal that no one failure can > > cause a catastrophic event. Even though I have heard they weren't > > certified, they would certainly have been building to the rules. > > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 21:13:57 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 09:13:57 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> <1687524530272.2860049.37ee76e738b1942749e56b5e338aae01f126fb58@spica.telekom.de> <16160885.4113090.1687525008732@mail.yahoo.com> <519358007.2373720.1687544494924@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8907f158-c2e5-6559-4c77-8c49acdcc907@archivale.com> Reason magazine had it right. Nobody has the right to prohibit somebody else from risking his life, whether it's the nincompoop going over Niagara Falls in a wooden barrel or skydivers passing a parachute to one another in mid-air. The only possible wrong-doing would have been if the operators had told prospective passengers that the submersible was Certified, Authorized, Classed or otherwise Blessed by the Omniscient Nanny State or The Experts, but that is not what happened. In fact, they were told (and made to acknowledge this in writing) that the craft was experimental and that their use of it could result in loss of life.? The other "issue," acerbically brought up by the political Left, was the use of public resources to search for them, but that differs only in scale from a Sheriff's Department helicopter being used to rescue mountain climbers. If one is wrong, so is the other, but if one is right... The central question is: do we own our own lives? If so, we are free men and free to take risks and accept the consequences of taking them. If not... Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 21:19:34 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 01:19:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <9b8ad574-8b8e-4c74-c3ac-01dd8dd618e7@archivale.com> References: <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <09E21835-FA95-4BCE-BBB5-FF8EEF02E0C5@gmail.com> <2024664532.4078437.1687512534536@mail.yahoo.com> <9b8ad574-8b8e-4c74-c3ac-01dd8dd618e7@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1914097663.4440705.1687569574280@mail.yahoo.com> Marc,a wing spa would be mainly under tension, which carbon fibre deals with well, & I doubt they would be a solid 5" thick as this hull section was.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 12:11 pm, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 21:41:27 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 01:41:27 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <8907f158-c2e5-6559-4c77-8c49acdcc907@archivale.com> References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> <1687524530272.2860049.37ee76e738b1942749e56b5e338aae01f126fb58@spica.telekom.de> <16160885.4113090.1687525008732@mail.yahoo.com> <519358007.2373720.1687544494924@mail.yahoo.com> <8907f158-c2e5-6559-4c77-8c49acdcc907@archivale.com> Message-ID: <_Ug884ougtebX7dL8fcDzf8Rdv2p8Hengp48vPHx_MLNlyPctYIbBIE0xHRK8baurdbMwJab_y18LIUJWUkK4O4TPP_QXVqOkfuTm2msBxY=@protonmail.com> SAR must remain a publically funded endeavour, because the alternative would incentivize people not to call when they need help, unavoidably resulting in loss of life. You can't bill someone retroactively for SAR either, for the same reason. The best thing we can do for mountaineers and mariners alike is education, outreach, and making critical safety equipment readily available at reasonably achievable price points. An argument could be made (and I suspect, will eventually be made in court by the survivors of the deceased) that the extent of the controversy surrounding the safety of the Titan design was not fully disclosed to the passengers, and that they signed their respective liability waivers taking the presented language at face value, when in fact some critical directly relevant information was deliberately withheld, and that this could render the waiver legally ineffective. I'm sure the courts will sort it out. Whether you agree or not that one should be free to assume any amount of personal risk in an endeavour (the argument against being that no fatality does not present downstream risk or injury to others, whether that is friends and family, SAR and emergency services personnel, etc.), it is clear that this incident further imposed a significant risk to the paying passengers, who may not have been fully informed of the risks despite signing the waiver. If such pertinent information was deliberately withheld, that would seem to be a situation which is indeed firmly in the public interest to regulate. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 23, 2023, 19:13, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Reason magazine had it right. Nobody has the right to prohibit somebody else from risking his life, whether it's the nincompoop going over Niagara Falls in a wooden barrel or skydivers passing a parachute to one another in mid-air. The only possible wrong-doing would have been if the operators had told prospective passengers that the submersible was Certified, Authorized, Classed or otherwise Blessed by the Omniscient Nanny State or The Experts, but that is not what happened. In fact, they were told (and made to acknowledge this in writing) that the craft was experimental and that their use of it could result in loss of life. The other "issue," acerbically brought up by the political Left, was the use of public resources to search for them, but that differs only in scale from a Sheriff's Department helicopter being used to rescue mountain climbers. If one is wrong, so is the other, but if one is right... The central question is: do we own our own lives? If so, we are free men and free to take risks and accept the consequences of taking them. If not... Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 23 21:47:11 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 09:47:11 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1914097663.4440705.1687569574280@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <09E21835-FA95-4BCE-BBB5-FF8EEF02E0C5@gmail.com> <2024664532.4078437.1687512534536@mail.yahoo.com> <9b8ad574-8b8e-4c74-c3ac-01dd8dd618e7@archivale.com> <1914097663.4440705.1687569574280@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> Not so - a spar is loaded in bending, which means tension on one side, compression on the other. In all structures, it is the compression loads that are critical. Marc On 6/24/2023 9:19 AM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Marc, > a wing spa would be mainly under tension, which carbon fibre deals > with well, & I doubt they would be a solid 5" thick as this hull > section was. > Alan > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Sat, 24 Jun 2023 at 12:11 pm, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 05:20:02 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 03:20:02 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> Message-ID: <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 06:22:47 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 18:22:47 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <5e26ed4c-5553-542a-477c-9e336551fc84@archivale.com> I just opened my folder on composite structures for submarines and submersibles. There are 28 items listed, going back to the early 1960s, and I wasn't looking very hard because I was pretty sure that there were no reliable sources here (Philippines) for the materials. It strikes me as odd that, with the likes of NASA and the David Taylor Model basin sponsoring or carrying out research on this topic, the use of composites is still considered unproven. Why is this? Marc de Piolenc -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 06:40:29 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 18:40:29 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <5e26ed4c-5553-542a-477c-9e336551fc84@archivale.com> References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> <5e26ed4c-5553-542a-477c-9e336551fc84@archivale.com> Message-ID: <17366235-138a-acb9-659a-89dd3f83061b@archivale.com> And speaking of materials, does anybody know any source of information on the use of ferrocement in submersibles? I've found information on reinforced concrete, on prestressed concrete, but nothing on FC. Marc de Piolenc On 6/24/2023 6:22 PM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I just opened my folder on composite structures for submarines and > submersibles. There are 28 items listed, going back to the early > 1960s, and I wasn't looking very hard because I was pretty sure that > there were no reliable sources here (Philippines) for the materials. > > It strikes me as odd that, with the likes of NASA and the David Taylor > Model basin sponsoring or carrying out research on this topic, the use > of composites is still considered unproven. > > Why is this? > > Marc de Piolenc > > -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 08:27:03 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 12:27:03 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <17366235-138a-acb9-659a-89dd3f83061b@archivale.com> References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> <5e26ed4c-5553-542a-477c-9e336551fc84@archivale.com> <17366235-138a-acb9-659a-89dd3f83061b@archivale.com> Message-ID: Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships! Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 24, 2023, at 6:41 AM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ?And speaking of materials, does anybody know any source of information on the use of ferrocement in submersibles? I've found information on reinforced concrete, on prestressed concrete, but nothing on FC. > > Marc de Piolenc > >> On 6/24/2023 6:22 PM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> I just opened my folder on composite structures for submarines and submersibles. There are 28 items listed, going back to the early 1960s, and I wasn't looking very hard because I was pretty sure that there were no reliable sources here (Philippines) for the materials. >> >> It strikes me as odd that, with the likes of NASA and the David Taylor Model basin sponsoring or carrying out research on this topic, the use of composites is still considered unproven. >> >> Why is this? >> >> Marc de Piolenc >> >> > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 09:49:39 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 13:49:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <207048018.4538218.1687614579138@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, how do you find the passengers to warn them?? The waiver passengers signed identified the submarine as "an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death."? (see link below)? That's a pretty honest and open summary by Ocean Gate itself of what you're up against as a passenger.? If that didn't give the passengers pause what else could an "expert" have told them?? These were highly intelligent successful businessmen who could understand what "experimental" and "certified" meant relative to a submarine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RwftWrAeo When trying to understand people's behavior we have to look at things as they were in the moment, not in the now with the benefit of retrospect.? For example, the MTS letter was penned in 2018.? In the subsequent five years time Ocean Gate had raised $18 million for Titan development and performed multiple dives on the Titanic successfully.? Up until June 18, 2023 anyone could have looked at MTS vs Ocean Gate and walked away believing the warnings were unwarranted. I think the history and events leading up to the Titan loss is very complex and includes everything from investors, finances, performance, and deadlines; to egos. Jon On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 05:22:16 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Marc, I do agree completely that if you want to get in a barrel and go over Niagara Falls, you should be allowed. ?This is different because the paying passengers were Likely not told about the concerns and warnings from industry experts. ?That is where my beef with experts lies, they could have done more to insure the passengers knew. ?A strongly worded letter to the builder is a let down. ?Hank? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 09:54:34 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 13:54:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1187340429.2075918.1687204702403@mail.yahoo.com> <89B029F5-1F57-44E7-9925-941119C3DF02@gmail.com> <1052173917.2323000.1687255025507@mail.yahoo.com> <2076047367.2636160.1687290206112@mail.yahoo.com> <1687524530272.2860049.37ee76e738b1942749e56b5e338aae01f126fb58@spica.telekom.de> <16160885.4113090.1687525008732@mail.yahoo.com> <519358007.2373720.1687544494924@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1369875277.4533810.1687614874404@mail.yahoo.com> A good point Sean.? There does appear to be some hypocrisy in the water world. Jon On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 02:38:05 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I wonder how concerned we should be about operators like Karl Stanley, who is similarly conducting commercial dives outside any regulatory framework, in a vessel which is technically ineligible for class due to departures from the society rules. Does he get a pass because of his safety record, or is there a line to be drawn somewhere? Sean -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 10:09:08 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 14:09:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <207048018.4538218.1687614579138@mail.yahoo.com> References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> <207048018.4538218.1687614579138@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1087492503.4554380.1687615748205@mail.yahoo.com> Jon,Although I do agree with you that they were intelligent people, the waiver is not unlike what you would sign to go white water rafting.There was a false sense of security being the 12th dive or however many. ?I am simply not satisfied that the powers that regulate this industry did enough. ?I don't believe for a second the passengers understood what was going on with the hull. ?The American Bureau Of Shipping is no small entity, and surely could have intervened and certainly found out the passenger list. ?They are all running around saying "I told you so". ?when they should be saying " I wish we did more". ??Hank On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 07:49:56 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, how do you find the passengers to warn them?? The waiver passengers signed identified the submarine as "an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death."? (see link below)? That's a pretty honest and open summary by Ocean Gate itself of what you're up against as a passenger.? If that didn't give the passengers pause what else could an "expert" have told them?? These were highly intelligent successful businessmen who could understand what "experimental" and "certified" meant relative to a submarine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RwftWrAeo When trying to understand people's behavior we have to look at things as they were in the moment, not in the now with the benefit of retrospect.? For example, the MTS letter was penned in 2018.? In the subsequent five years time Ocean Gate had raised $18 million for Titan development and performed multiple dives on the Titanic successfully.? Up until June 18, 2023 anyone could have looked at MTS vs Ocean Gate and walked away believing the warnings were unwarranted. I think the history and events leading up to the Titan loss is very complex and includes everything from investors, finances, performance, and deadlines; to egos. Jon On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 05:22:16 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Marc, I do agree completely that if you want to get in a barrel and go over Niagara Falls, you should be allowed. ?This is different because the paying passengers were Likely not told about the concerns and warnings from industry experts. ?That is where my beef with experts lies, they could have done more to insure the passengers knew. ?A strongly worded letter to the builder is a let down. ?Hank? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 11:00:00 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 15:00:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1087492503.4554380.1687615748205@mail.yahoo.com> References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> <207048018.4538218.1687614579138@mail.yahoo.com> <1087492503.4554380.1687615748205@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1553742812.660137.1687618800819@mail.yahoo.com> Ok, for the sake of argument let's take your point of view as axiomatic.? What is your response to Sean's question about Karl Stanley's operation? Jon On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:10:55 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,Although I do agree with you that they were intelligent people, the waiver is not unlike what you would sign to go white water rafting.There was a false sense of security being the 12th dive or however many. ?I am simply not satisfied that the powers that regulate this industry did enough. ?I don't believe for a second the passengers understood what was going on with the hull. ?The American Bureau Of Shipping is no small entity, and surely could have intervened and certainly found out the passenger list. ?They are all running around saying "I told you so". ?when they should be saying " I wish we did more". ??Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 11:03:36 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 15:03:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1087492503.4554380.1687615748205@mail.yahoo.com> References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> <207048018.4538218.1687614579138@mail.yahoo.com> <1087492503.4554380.1687615748205@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> Hank,Your assumption that somebody-should-have-done-more is flawed. People will do what people will do. The idea that some nameless professional entity could have imposed its will on the free will of free citizens is just hide-your-head-in-the-sand bullshit. I get that you want someone or something to blame. Sadly, such a person does not exist. Not now, and not in the minute before Stockton and his crew were killed. Those people went adventuring. They did it with foreknowledge, because the adventure excited them, and the experience compelled them. And I for one wonder how it is that someone like you, who does EXACTLY the same thing from your home workshop, would think otherwise. Which is pretty much all I have to say on the matter from this point forward. I argued with Stockton, and that changed his mind exactly not one iota. Lesson learned. Does that sound familiar? It should. We are all thick skulled knuckle heads about our passions. Has anyone changed your opinion lately? I'm thinking not. Same here. 'Nuff said.,Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sat, Jun 24, 2023 10:09 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Jon,Although I do agree with you that they were intelligent people, the waiver is not unlike what you would sign to go white water rafting.There was a false sense of security being the 12th dive or however many. ?I am simply not satisfied that the powers that regulate this industry did enough. ?I don't believe for a second the passengers understood what was going on with the hull. ?The American Bureau Of Shipping is no small entity, and surely could have intervened and certainly found out the passenger list. ?They are all running around saying "I told you so". ?when they should be saying " I wish we did more". ??Hank On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 07:49:56 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, how do you find the passengers to warn them?? The waiver passengers signed identified the submarine as "an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death."? (see link below)? That's a pretty honest and open summary by Ocean Gate itself of what you're up against as a passenger.? If that didn't give the passengers pause what else could an "expert" have told them?? These were highly intelligent successful businessmen who could understand what "experimental" and "certified" meant relative to a submarine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RwftWrAeo When trying to understand people's behavior we have to look at things as they were in the moment, not in the now with the benefit of retrospect.? For example, the MTS letter was penned in 2018.? In the subsequent five years time Ocean Gate had raised $18 million for Titan development and performed multiple dives on the Titanic successfully.? Up until June 18, 2023 anyone could have looked at MTS vs Ocean Gate and walked away believing the warnings were unwarranted. I think the history and events leading up to the Titan loss is very complex and includes everything from investors, finances, performance, and deadlines; to egos. Jon On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 05:22:16 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Marc, I do agree completely that if you want to get in a barrel and go over Niagara Falls, you should be allowed. ?This is different because the paying passengers were Likely not told about the concerns and warnings from industry experts. ?That is where my beef with experts lies, they could have done more to insure the passengers knew. ?A strongly worded letter to the builder is a let down. ?Hank? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 12:08:38 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 10:08:38 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> References: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 12:29:09 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 16:29:09 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> References: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: IIRC, I am aware of at least one departure from society rules on Stanley's Idabel that make it ineligible for class, in the form of its through-bolted windows, which are prohibited per ABS & PVHO-1. There may be other issues - I am not sufficiently familiar with the vessel to know. My point was just to point out that nobody appears to be clamoring for Stanley to be shut down, and if the ABS (or DNV-GL) Rules are what we as a community are considering to be the defining arbiter of what is safe, then we are not applying that criteria equitably by giving Stanley a pass on his operation. Also, short of an open community audit that would require complete disclosure on the part of a designer / builder, what mechanism exists to prove compliance with the design rules other than classing? Alternatively, if we can agree that the criteria is perhaps something less stringent (as maybe it should be, given Idabel's record) perhaps we can find a way to articulate it through this discussion? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 24, 2023, 10:08, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Sean raises a good point. There is however a big difference. Karl?s sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering guidelines. My issue is not with being classed. Classing a sub does not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. The boiler plate waiver would apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case. > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:03 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> ? >> Hank, >> Your assumption that somebody-should-have-done-more is flawed. People will do what people will do. The idea that some nameless professional entity could have imposed its will on the free will of free citizens is just hide-your-head-in-the-sand bullshit. I get that you want someone or something to blame. Sadly, such a person does not exist. Not now, and not in the minute before Stockton and his crew were killed. Those people went adventuring. They did it with foreknowledge, because the adventure excited them, and the experience compelled them. And I for one wonder how it is that someone like you, who does EXACTLY the same thing from your home workshop, would think otherwise. Which is pretty much all I have to say on the matter from this point forward. I argued with Stockton, and that changed his mind exactly not one iota. Lesson learned. Does that sound familiar? It should. We are all thick skulled knuckle heads about our passions. Has anyone changed your opinion lately? I'm thinking not. Same here. 'Nuff said., >> Vance >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Sat, Jun 24, 2023 10:09 am >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >> >> Jon, >> Although I do agree with you that they were intelligent people, the waiver is not unlike what you would sign to go white water rafting. >> There was a false sense of security being the 12th dive or however many. I am simply not satisfied that the powers that regulate this industry did enough. I don't believe for a second the passengers understood what was going on with the hull. The American Bureau Of Shipping is no small entity, and surely could have intervened and certainly found out the passenger list. They are all running around saying "I told you so". when they should be saying " I wish we did more". >> Hank >> >> On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 07:49:56 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Hank, how do you find the passengers to warn them? The waiver passengers signed identified the submarine as "an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death." (see link below) That's a pretty honest and open summary by Ocean Gate itself of what you're up against as a passenger. If that didn't give the passengers pause what else could an "expert" have told them? These were highly intelligent successful businessmen who could understand what "experimental" and "certified" meant relative to a submarine. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RwftWrAeo >> >> When trying to understand people's behavior we have to look at things as they were in the moment, not in the now with the benefit of retrospect. For example, the MTS letter was penned in 2018. In the subsequent five years time Ocean Gate had raised $18 million for Titan development and performed multiple dives on the Titanic successfully. Up until June 18, 2023 anyone could have looked at MTS vs Ocean Gate and walked away believing the warnings were unwarranted. >> >> I think the history and events leading up to the Titan loss is very complex and includes everything from investors, finances, performance, and deadlines; to egos. >> >> Jon >> >> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 05:22:16 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> Marc, I do agree completely that if you want to get in a barrel and go over Niagara Falls, you should be allowed. This is different because the paying passengers were Likely not told about the concerns and warnings from industry experts. That is where my beef with experts lies, they could have done more to insure the passengers knew. A strongly worded letter to the builder is a let down. >> Hank >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 12:30:57 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 16:30:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> References: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1159644989.683975.1687624257978@mail.yahoo.com> Vance,I work in a world where we take responsibility for our mistakes, the only hiding your head in the sand is from the classing societies. ?I am not looking for someone to blame. ? If you want to believe the passengers were properly for-warned, well that is where we disagree. ?Actually, I have had my mind changed, and I do listen to reason. ?Example, I was interested in both concrete (high performance) ?and Carbon Fibre. ?Sean talked me out of both, and was only one conversation on the matter. ?I also jest did a lot of experimenting with Epoxy for submarine ports. ?Testing was looking very good with thousands of cycles performed. ?A conversation with an un-named expert in the field reached out to me and although he was intrigued, he thought I should stay away from the idea. ?I dropped it for two reasons, one his advice and second, I was starting to get messages from wanna be sub builders asking ?about it. ?Hank On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 10:09:06 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean raises a good point. ?There is however a big difference. ?Karl?s sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering guidelines. ?My issue is not with being classed. ?Classing a sub does not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. ?The boiler plate waiver would apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case.?Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:03 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank,Your assumption that somebody-should-have-done-more is flawed. People will do what people will do. The idea that some nameless professional entity could have imposed its will on the free will of free citizens is just hide-your-head-in-the-sand bullshit. I get that you want someone or something to blame. Sadly, such a person does not exist. Not now, and not in the minute before Stockton and his crew were killed. Those people went adventuring. They did it with foreknowledge, because the adventure excited them, and the experience compelled them. And I for one wonder how it is that someone like you, who does EXACTLY the same thing from your home workshop, would think otherwise. Which is pretty much all I have to say on the matter from this point forward. I argued with Stockton, and that changed his mind exactly not one iota. Lesson learned. Does that sound familiar? It should. We are all thick skulled knuckle heads about our passions. Has anyone changed your opinion lately? I'm thinking not. Same here. 'Nuff said.,Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sat, Jun 24, 2023 10:09 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Jon,Although I do agree with you that they were intelligent people, the waiver is not unlike what you would sign to go white water rafting.There was a false sense of security being the 12th dive or however many. ?I am simply not satisfied that the powers that regulate this industry did enough. ?I don't believe for a second the passengers understood what was going on with the hull. ?The American Bureau Of Shipping is no small entity, and surely could have intervened and certainly found out the passenger list. ?They are all running around saying "I told you so". ?when they should be saying " I wish we did more". ??Hank On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 07:49:56 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, how do you find the passengers to warn them?? The waiver passengers signed identified the submarine as "an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death."? (see link below)? That's a pretty honest and open summary by Ocean Gate itself of what you're up against as a passenger.? If that didn't give the passengers pause what else could an "expert" have told them?? These were highly intelligent successful businessmen who could understand what "experimental" and "certified" meant relative to a submarine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RwftWrAeo When trying to understand people's behavior we have to look at things as they were in the moment, not in the now with the benefit of retrospect.? For example, the MTS letter was penned in 2018.? In the subsequent five years time Ocean Gate had raised $18 million for Titan development and performed multiple dives on the Titanic successfully.? Up until June 18, 2023 anyone could have looked at MTS vs Ocean Gate and walked away believing the warnings were unwarranted. I think the history and events leading up to the Titan loss is very complex and includes everything from investors, finances, performance, and deadlines; to egos. Jon On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 05:22:16 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Marc, I do agree completely that if you want to get in a barrel and go over Niagara Falls, you should be allowed. ?This is different because the paying passengers were Likely not told about the concerns and warnings from industry experts. ?That is where my beef with experts lies, they could have done more to insure the passengers knew. ?A strongly worded letter to the builder is a let down. ?Hank? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 12:36:27 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 16:36:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <2045285006.4590667.1687624587446@mail.yahoo.com> Sean, I don't think Karl's sub has through bolted ports. ?He has conical ports. ? I for one don't think classing makes a sub safer that non classed. ?It just proves it is safe. ?Some of the rules need not be followed for a Psub. ?One rule would be to have a light to tell you the hatch is open. ?In a multi passenger commercial sub with lots goin on it makes sense. ?In my one man sub, it does not. ?It would just be an extra system to clutter up the sub.Hank On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 10:29:35 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: IIRC, I am aware of at least one departure from society rules on Stanley's Idabel that make it ineligible for class, in the form of its through-bolted windows, which are prohibited per ABS & PVHO-1. There may be other issues - I am not sufficiently familiar with the vessel to know. My point was just to point out that nobody appears to be clamoring for Stanley to be shut down, and if the ABS (or DNV-GL) Rules are what we as a community are considering to be the defining arbiter of what is safe, then we are not applying that criteria equitably by giving Stanley a pass on his operation. Also, short of an open community audit that would require complete disclosure on the part of a designer / builder, what mechanism exists to prove compliance with the design rules other than classing? Alternatively, if we can agree that the criteria is perhaps something less stringent (as maybe it should be, given Idabel's record) perhaps we can find a way to articulate it through this discussion? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 24, 2023, 10:08, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Sean raises a good point. ?There is however a big difference. ?Karl?s sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering guidelines. ?My issue is not with being classed. ?Classing a sub does not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. ?The boiler plate waiver would apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case.?Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:03 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank,Your assumption that somebody-should-have-done-more is flawed. People will do what people will do. The idea that some nameless professional entity could have imposed its will on the free will of free citizens is just hide-your-head-in-the-sand bullshit. I get that you want someone or something to blame. Sadly, such a person does not exist. Not now, and not in the minute before Stockton and his crew were killed. Those people went adventuring. They did it with foreknowledge, because the adventure excited them, and the experience compelled them. And I for one wonder how it is that someone like you, who does EXACTLY the same thing from your home workshop, would think otherwise. Which is pretty much all I have to say on the matter from this point forward. I argued with Stockton, and that changed his mind exactly not one iota. Lesson learned. Does that sound familiar? It should. We are all thick skulled knuckle heads about our passions. Has anyone changed your opinion lately? I'm thinking not. Same here. 'Nuff said.,Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sat, Jun 24, 2023 10:09 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Jon,Although I do agree with you that they were intelligent people, the waiver is not unlike what you would sign to go white water rafting.There was a false sense of security being the 12th dive or however many. ?I am simply not satisfied that the powers that regulate this industry did enough. ?I don't believe for a second the passengers understood what was going on with the hull. ?The American Bureau Of Shipping is no small entity, and surely could have intervened and certainly found out the passenger list. ?They are all running around saying "I told you so". ?when they should be saying " I wish we did more". ??Hank On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 07:49:56 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, how do you find the passengers to warn them?? The waiver passengers signed identified the submarine as "an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death."? (see link below)? That's a pretty honest and open summary by Ocean Gate itself of what you're up against as a passenger.? If that didn't give the passengers pause what else could an "expert" have told them?? These were highly intelligent successful businessmen who could understand what "experimental" and "certified" meant relative to a submarine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RwftWrAeo When trying to understand people's behavior we have to look at things as they were in the moment, not in the now with the benefit of retrospect.? For example, the MTS letter was penned in 2018.? In the subsequent five years time Ocean Gate had raised $18 million for Titan development and performed multiple dives on the Titanic successfully.? Up until June 18, 2023 anyone could have looked at MTS vs Ocean Gate and walked away believing the warnings were unwarranted. I think the history and events leading up to the Titan loss is very complex and includes everything from investors, finances, performance, and deadlines; to egos. Jon On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 05:22:16 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Marc, I do agree completely that if you want to get in a barrel and go over Niagara Falls, you should be allowed. ?This is different because the paying passengers were Likely not told about the concerns and warnings from industry experts. ?That is where my beef with experts lies, they could have done more to insure the passengers knew. ?A strongly worded letter to the builder is a let down. ?Hank? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 12:42:34 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 16:42:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <2045285006.4590667.1687624587446@mail.yahoo.com> References: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> <2045285006.4590667.1687624587446@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1820647075.4602095.1687624954021@mail.yahoo.com> One thing is for sure, when I take people in my Dual DeepWorker, I will have a very clear and open conversation with them. ?This really brings to light the need to do so. ?Although the sub was classed and I did not do any modifications to the hull, and all add ons are only bolted to the chassis. ?It is still modified and has risks.Hank On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 10:38:59 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean, I don't think Karl's sub has through bolted ports. ?He has conical ports. ? I for one don't think classing makes a sub safer that non classed. ?It just proves it is safe. ?Some of the rules need not be followed for a Psub. ?One rule would be to have a light to tell you the hatch is open. ?In a multi passenger commercial sub with lots goin on it makes sense. ?In my one man sub, it does not. ?It would just be an extra system to clutter up the sub.Hank On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 10:29:35 AM MDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: IIRC, I am aware of at least one departure from society rules on Stanley's Idabel that make it ineligible for class, in the form of its through-bolted windows, which are prohibited per ABS & PVHO-1. There may be other issues - I am not sufficiently familiar with the vessel to know. My point was just to point out that nobody appears to be clamoring for Stanley to be shut down, and if the ABS (or DNV-GL) Rules are what we as a community are considering to be the defining arbiter of what is safe, then we are not applying that criteria equitably by giving Stanley a pass on his operation. Also, short of an open community audit that would require complete disclosure on the part of a designer / builder, what mechanism exists to prove compliance with the design rules other than classing? Alternatively, if we can agree that the criteria is perhaps something less stringent (as maybe it should be, given Idabel's record) perhaps we can find a way to articulate it through this discussion? Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 24, 2023, 10:08, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Sean raises a good point. ?There is however a big difference. ?Karl?s sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering guidelines. ?My issue is not with being classed. ?Classing a sub does not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. ?The boiler plate waiver would apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case.?Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:03 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ?Hank,Your assumption that somebody-should-have-done-more is flawed. People will do what people will do. The idea that some nameless professional entity could have imposed its will on the free will of free citizens is just hide-your-head-in-the-sand bullshit. I get that you want someone or something to blame. Sadly, such a person does not exist. Not now, and not in the minute before Stockton and his crew were killed. Those people went adventuring. They did it with foreknowledge, because the adventure excited them, and the experience compelled them. And I for one wonder how it is that someone like you, who does EXACTLY the same thing from your home workshop, would think otherwise. Which is pretty much all I have to say on the matter from this point forward. I argued with Stockton, and that changed his mind exactly not one iota. Lesson learned. Does that sound familiar? It should. We are all thick skulled knuckle heads about our passions. Has anyone changed your opinion lately? I'm thinking not. Same here. 'Nuff said.,Vance -----Original Message----- From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Sat, Jun 24, 2023 10:09 am Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Jon,Although I do agree with you that they were intelligent people, the waiver is not unlike what you would sign to go white water rafting.There was a false sense of security being the 12th dive or however many. ?I am simply not satisfied that the powers that regulate this industry did enough. ?I don't believe for a second the passengers understood what was going on with the hull. ?The American Bureau Of Shipping is no small entity, and surely could have intervened and certainly found out the passenger list. ?They are all running around saying "I told you so". ?when they should be saying " I wish we did more". ??Hank On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 07:49:56 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hank, how do you find the passengers to warn them?? The waiver passengers signed identified the submarine as "an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death."? (see link below)? That's a pretty honest and open summary by Ocean Gate itself of what you're up against as a passenger.? If that didn't give the passengers pause what else could an "expert" have told them?? These were highly intelligent successful businessmen who could understand what "experimental" and "certified" meant relative to a submarine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RwftWrAeo When trying to understand people's behavior we have to look at things as they were in the moment, not in the now with the benefit of retrospect.? For example, the MTS letter was penned in 2018.? In the subsequent five years time Ocean Gate had raised $18 million for Titan development and performed multiple dives on the Titanic successfully.? Up until June 18, 2023 anyone could have looked at MTS vs Ocean Gate and walked away believing the warnings were unwarranted. I think the history and events leading up to the Titan loss is very complex and includes everything from investors, finances, performance, and deadlines; to egos. Jon On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 05:22:16 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Marc, I do agree completely that if you want to get in a barrel and go over Niagara Falls, you should be allowed. ?This is different because the paying passengers were Likely not told about the concerns and warnings from industry experts. ?That is where my beef with experts lies, they could have done more to insure the passengers knew. ?A strongly worded letter to the builder is a let down. ?Hank? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 12:45:25 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 12:45:25 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: Hi Sean, Karl's current sub doesn't have bolt-through windows. You might be thinking of Cbug, the sub he built when he was something like 14 years old. That one did. I've never seen his sub in person, but as far as I can tell it strikes me as rules-compliant, and actually a really great design. Best, Alec On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 12:30?PM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > IIRC, I am aware of at least one departure from society rules on Stanley's > Idabel that make it ineligible for class, in the form of its through-bolted > windows, which are prohibited per ABS & PVHO-1. There may be other issues - > I am not sufficiently familiar with the vessel to know. My point was just > to point out that nobody appears to be clamoring for Stanley to be shut > down, and if the ABS (or DNV-GL) Rules are what we as a community are > considering to be the defining arbiter of what is safe, then we are not > applying that criteria equitably by giving Stanley a pass on his operation. > Also, short of an open community audit that would require complete > disclosure on the part of a designer / builder, what mechanism exists to > prove compliance with the design rules other than classing? Alternatively, > if we can agree that the criteria is perhaps something less stringent (as > maybe it should be, given Idabel's record) perhaps we can find a way to > articulate it through this discussion? > > Sean > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > On Jun. 24, 2023, 10:08, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > > Sean raises a good point. There is however a big difference. Karl?s sub > is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering > guidelines. My issue is not with being classed. Classing a sub does not > make it safer, it just proves it is safe. The boiler plate waiver would > apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case. > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:03 AM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Hank, > Your assumption that somebody-should-have-done-more is flawed. People will > do what people will do. The idea that some nameless professional entity > could have imposed its will on the free will of free citizens is just > hide-your-head-in-the-sand bullshit. I get that you want someone or > something to blame. Sadly, such a person does not exist. Not now, and not > in the minute before Stockton and his crew were killed. Those people went > adventuring. They did it with foreknowledge, because the adventure excited > them, and the experience compelled them. And I for one wonder how it is > that someone like you, who does EXACTLY the same thing from your home > workshop, would think otherwise. Which is pretty much all I have to say on > the matter from this point forward. I argued with Stockton, and that > changed his mind exactly not one iota. Lesson learned. Does that sound > familiar? It should. We are all thick skulled knuckle heads about our > passions. Has anyone changed your opinion lately? I'm thinking not. Same > here. 'Nuff said., > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > > Sent: Sat, Jun 24, 2023 10:09 am > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Jon, > Although I do agree with you that they were intelligent people, the waiver > is not unlike what you would sign to go white water rafting. > There was a false sense of security being the 12th dive or however many. > I am simply not satisfied that the powers that regulate this industry did > enough. I don't believe for a second the passengers understood what was > going on with the hull. The American Bureau Of Shipping is no small > entity, and surely could have intervened and certainly found out the > passenger list. They are all running around saying "I told you so". when > they should be saying " I wish we did more". > Hank > > On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 07:49:56 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Hank, how do you find the passengers to warn them? The waiver passengers > signed identified the submarine as "an experimental submersible vessel that > has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and could result > in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death." (see link > below) That's a pretty honest and open summary by Ocean Gate itself of > what you're up against as a passenger. If that didn't give the passengers > pause what else could an "expert" have told them? These were highly > intelligent successful businessmen who could understand what "experimental" > and "certified" meant relative to a submarine. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RwftWrAeo > > When trying to understand people's behavior we have to look at things as > they were in the moment, not in the now with the benefit of retrospect. > For example, the MTS letter was penned in 2018. In the subsequent five > years time Ocean Gate had raised $18 million for Titan development and > performed multiple dives on the Titanic successfully. Up until June 18, > 2023 anyone could have looked at MTS vs Ocean Gate and walked away > believing the warnings were unwarranted. > > I think the history and events leading up to the Titan loss is very > complex and includes everything from investors, finances, performance, and > deadlines; to egos. > > Jon > > > On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 05:22:16 AM EDT, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Marc, I do agree completely that if you want to get in a barrel and go > over Niagara Falls, you should be allowed. This is different because the > paying passengers were Likely not told about the concerns and warnings from > industry experts. That is where my beef with experts lies, they could have > done more to insure the passengers knew. A strongly worded letter to the > builder is a let down. > Hank > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 12:52:50 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 09:52:50 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> References: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1CB2EFCB-FC46-44AD-BF18-C9F9B4DB50DA@gmail.com> Excellent discussions all around here. I think it?s a reasonable assumption that most people participating in this endeavor receive some degree of skepticism or shock at the notion of taking this on oneself: Bear in mind there?s a difference between PR and opinion, and while there is some risk of knee-jerk reaction in the wake of these events, two things that I believe keep us insulated 1) The incredibly short memory of the general media-consuming public. Willing to bet a cold beverage of one?s choosing that in another week or so, deep sea design criteria will not be on anyone?s radar. There?s already some craziness in Russia, give that another day or two and tack on a vocal and reactionary personal attack from opposing political perspectives on a topic of your choice, and the interest will fade. 2) The lack of potential impact. Generally one?s errors have impacts on others, and that?s what generally drives greater outrage, and stamina for that outrage. Any threats to general aviation (As a risky, technically demanding parallel) generally occur when "public safety? is invoked. However, see topic #1 and consider the last time there has been a restriction based on that safety demand. (By now the biggest threat gen av faces is in the form of environmentally based arguments.) The impacts in submersible operations are remarkably insular. (Any public outrage will also be tempered in the Titan instance by the belief that wealthy people deserve anything they have coming.) Yes the SAR bill is a large one, and I believe that will become the overriding sentiment in discussions on the matter. The two points lead me to believe that this event poses little threat to the majority of PSubs membership. But it?s certainly worth being prepared in the event transport regulation does turn a large eye towards the group. Has there been any similar turn in the past? Do folks here believe holding up ABS (or similar) criteria will be sufficient? John > On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:08 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Sean raises a good point. There is however a big difference. Karl?s sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering guidelines. My issue is not with being classed. Classing a sub does not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. The boiler plate waiver would apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case. > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:03 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> ? >> Hank, >> Your assumption that somebody-should-have-done-more is flawed. People will do what people will do. The idea that some nameless professional entity could have imposed its will on the free will of free citizens is just hide-your-head-in-the-sand bullshit. I get that you want someone or something to blame. Sadly, such a person does not exist. Not now, and not in the minute before Stockton and his crew were killed. Those people went adventuring. They did it with foreknowledge, because the adventure excited them, and the experience compelled them. And I for one wonder how it is that someone like you, who does EXACTLY the same thing from your home workshop, would think otherwise. Which is pretty much all I have to say on the matter from this point forward. I argued with Stockton, and that changed his mind exactly not one iota. Lesson learned. Does that sound familiar? It should. We are all thick skulled knuckle heads about our passions. Has anyone changed your opinion lately? I'm thinking not. Same here. 'Nuff said., >> Vance >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >> To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >> Sent: Sat, Jun 24, 2023 10:09 am >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >> >> Jon, >> Although I do agree with you that they were intelligent people, the waiver is not unlike what you would sign to go white water rafting. >> There was a false sense of security being the 12th dive or however many. I am simply not satisfied that the powers that regulate this industry did enough. I don't believe for a second the passengers understood what was going on with the hull. The American Bureau Of Shipping is no small entity, and surely could have intervened and certainly found out the passenger list. They are all running around saying "I told you so". when they should be saying " I wish we did more". >> Hank >> >> On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 07:49:56 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Hank, how do you find the passengers to warn them? The waiver passengers signed identified the submarine as "an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death." (see link below) That's a pretty honest and open summary by Ocean Gate itself of what you're up against as a passenger. If that didn't give the passengers pause what else could an "expert" have told them? These were highly intelligent successful businessmen who could understand what "experimental" and "certified" meant relative to a submarine. >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RwftWrAeo >> >> When trying to understand people's behavior we have to look at things as they were in the moment, not in the now with the benefit of retrospect. For example, the MTS letter was penned in 2018. In the subsequent five years time Ocean Gate had raised $18 million for Titan development and performed multiple dives on the Titanic successfully. Up until June 18, 2023 anyone could have looked at MTS vs Ocean Gate and walked away believing the warnings were unwarranted. >> >> I think the history and events leading up to the Titan loss is very complex and includes everything from investors, finances, performance, and deadlines; to egos. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 05:22:16 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Marc, I do agree completely that if you want to get in a barrel and go over Niagara Falls, you should be allowed. This is different because the paying passengers were Likely not told about the concerns and warnings from industry experts. That is where my beef with experts lies, they could have done more to insure the passengers knew. A strongly worded letter to the builder is a let down. >> Hank >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 13:10:03 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 17:10:03 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: My mistake. It seems I was indeed conflating Idabel with another vessel. I have a few more thoughts, but I have to step away from my desk for a while. More later. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 24, 2023, 10:45, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Sean, > > Karl's current sub doesn't have bolt-through windows. You might be thinking of Cbug, the sub he built when he was something like 14 years old. That one did. I've never seen his sub in person, but as far as I can tell it strikes me as rules-compliant, and actually a really great design. > > Best, > Alec > > On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 12:30?PM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> IIRC, I am aware of at least one departure from society rules on Stanley's Idabel that make it ineligible for class, in the form of its through-bolted windows, which are prohibited per ABS & PVHO-1. There may be other issues - I am not sufficiently familiar with the vessel to know. My point was just to point out that nobody appears to be clamoring for Stanley to be shut down, and if the ABS (or DNV-GL) Rules are what we as a community are considering to be the defining arbiter of what is safe, then we are not applying that criteria equitably by giving Stanley a pass on his operation. Also, short of an open community audit that would require complete disclosure on the part of a designer / builder, what mechanism exists to prove compliance with the design rules other than classing? Alternatively, if we can agree that the criteria is perhaps something less stringent (as maybe it should be, given Idabel's record) perhaps we can find a way to articulate it through this discussion? >> >> Sean >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> On Jun. 24, 2023, 10:08, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: >> >>> Sean raises a good point. There is however a big difference. Karl?s sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering guidelines. My issue is not with being classed. Classing a sub does not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. The boiler plate waiver would apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case. >>> Hank >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:03 AM, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> ? >>>> Hank, >>>> Your assumption that somebody-should-have-done-more is flawed. People will do what people will do. The idea that some nameless professional entity could have imposed its will on the free will of free citizens is just hide-your-head-in-the-sand bullshit. I get that you want someone or something to blame. Sadly, such a person does not exist. Not now, and not in the minute before Stockton and his crew were killed. Those people went adventuring. They did it with foreknowledge, because the adventure excited them, and the experience compelled them. And I for one wonder how it is that someone like you, who does EXACTLY the same thing from your home workshop, would think otherwise. Which is pretty much all I have to say on the matter from this point forward. I argued with Stockton, and that changed his mind exactly not one iota. Lesson learned. Does that sound familiar? It should. We are all thick skulled knuckle heads about our passions. Has anyone changed your opinion lately? I'm thinking not. Same here. 'Nuff said., >>>> Vance >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles >>>> To: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles >>>> Sent: Sat, Jun 24, 2023 10:09 am >>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site >>>> >>>> Jon, >>>> Although I do agree with you that they were intelligent people, the waiver is not unlike what you would sign to go white water rafting. >>>> There was a false sense of security being the 12th dive or however many. I am simply not satisfied that the powers that regulate this industry did enough. I don't believe for a second the passengers understood what was going on with the hull. The American Bureau Of Shipping is no small entity, and surely could have intervened and certainly found out the passenger list. They are all running around saying "I told you so". when they should be saying " I wish we did more". >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> On Saturday, June 24, 2023, 07:49:56 AM MDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Hank, how do you find the passengers to warn them? The waiver passengers signed identified the submarine as "an experimental submersible vessel that has not been approved or certified by any regulatory body and could result in physical injury, disability, emotional trauma, or death." (see link below) That's a pretty honest and open summary by Ocean Gate itself of what you're up against as a passenger. If that didn't give the passengers pause what else could an "expert" have told them? These were highly intelligent successful businessmen who could understand what "experimental" and "certified" meant relative to a submarine. >>>> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7RwftWrAeo >>>> >>>> When trying to understand people's behavior we have to look at things as they were in the moment, not in the now with the benefit of retrospect. For example, the MTS letter was penned in 2018. In the subsequent five years time Ocean Gate had raised $18 million for Titan development and performed multiple dives on the Titanic successfully. Up until June 18, 2023 anyone could have looked at MTS vs Ocean Gate and walked away believing the warnings were unwarranted. >>>> >>>> I think the history and events leading up to the Titan loss is very complex and includes everything from investors, finances, performance, and deadlines; to egos. >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> >>>> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 05:22:16 AM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>> Marc, I do agree completely that if you want to get in a barrel and go over Niagara Falls, you should be allowed. This is different because the paying passengers were Likely not told about the concerns and warnings from industry experts. That is where my beef with experts lies, they could have done more to insure the passengers knew. A strongly worded letter to the builder is a let down. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 13:12:24 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 11:12:24 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> References: <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 13:37:10 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 17:37:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> References: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1061992845.4587907.1687628230634@mail.yahoo.com> How do you know Idabel is built mostly to ABS rules?? Because Stanley says so??? As I used to tell Will Kohnen, there are only two kinds of submarines in the world; certified and non-certified.? If a sub is not certified it doesn't matter what they are used for, what they carry, or how deep they dive; you do not know and cannot say with certainty whether it meets ABS standards regardless of who fabricated it.? A non-certified vessel built by the best submarine builder in the world cannot be proven to be any more in compliance with ABS standards than the psubber that builds a non-certified K350 in their backyard.? It is the certification that proves compliance to standards and that makes all non-certified submarines equal.? I think we may all agree there can be obvious signs of an unsafe vessel, however in totality the concept of how "safe" a non-certified submarine is, is subjective. I don't have anything against Stanley and am not suggesting he be reigned in, however Sean has asked a perfectly reasonable question and I think before we start holding anyone accountable for the Titan loss we need to know whether the industry is going to endorse double standards or hold everyone to the same standard. Bringing the question back to you...take out the personalities, friendships, and acquaintances...look only at the facts...there is a non-certified submarine taking passengers-for-hire to a depth of 3000 feet in an unsupervised environment.? Does PSUBS have a responsibility to petition ABS or the courts to intervene and stop the operation because it might be unsafe? Jon On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:10:28 PM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean raises a good point. ?There is however a big difference. ?Karl?s sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering guidelines. ?My issue is not with being classed. ?Classing a sub does not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. ?The boiler plate waiver would apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case.?Hank Sent from my iPhone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 13:56:55 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 17:56:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1CB2EFCB-FC46-44AD-BF18-C9F9B4DB50DA@gmail.com> References: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> <1CB2EFCB-FC46-44AD-BF18-C9F9B4DB50DA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1438562524.4600459.1687629415748@mail.yahoo.com> I am sure there will be some effort to restrict private submarine dives on the Titanic, but?I agree with you and do not foresee a major impact to our recreational use of submarines.? This story is already off the front page and as you suggest, other world events are going to take the spotlight. However as you also suggest, we need to remain vigilant and ready to defend our hobby from unreasonable government intrusion.? We need to think of ourselves as a lobbying entity and act accordingly when necessary.? We need to continue to promote building and operating our submarines in accordance with accepted industry standards.? We need to be careful with our responses when people propose working with exotic or unproven designs and materials.? I think supporting innovation is fine if it is performed in a methodical and open manner that is open to critique by the group. Jon On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:54:35 PM EDT, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Excellent discussions all around here. I think it?s a reasonable assumption that most people participating in this endeavor receive some degree of skepticism or shock at the notion of taking this on oneself: Bear in mind there?s a difference between PR and opinion, and while there is some risk of knee-jerk reaction in the wake of these events, two things that I believe keep us insulated 1) The incredibly short memory of the general media-consuming public. ?Willing to bet a cold beverage of one?s choosing that in another week or so, deep sea design criteria will not be on anyone?s radar. ?There?s already some craziness in Russia, give that another day or two and tack on a vocal and reactionary personal attack from opposing political perspectives on a topic of your choice, and the interest will fade. ? 2) The lack of potential impact. ?Generally one?s errors have impacts on others, and that?s what generally drives greater outrage, and stamina for that outrage. ?Any threats to general aviation (As a risky, technically demanding parallel) generally occur when "public safety? is invoked. ?However, see topic #1 and consider the last time there has been a restriction based on that safety demand. (By now the biggest threat gen av faces is in the form of environmentally based arguments.) ?The impacts in submersible operations are remarkably insular. ?(Any public outrage will also be tempered in the Titan instance by the belief that wealthy people deserve anything they have coming.) ?Yes the SAR bill is a large one, and I believe that will become the overriding sentiment in discussions on the matter. The two points lead me to believe that this event poses little threat to the majority of PSubs membership. ?But it?s certainly worth being prepared in the event transport regulation does turn a large eye towards the group. ? Has there been any similar turn in the past? ?Do folks here believe holding up ABS (or similar) criteria will be sufficient? ? John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 13:56:55 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 11:56:55 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1061992845.4587907.1687628230634@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1061992845.4587907.1687628230634@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <525AA7DD-6674-4B1A-900A-6E716B22F907@yahoo.ca> Jon, agreed, I don?t know to what level Karl?s sub meets ABS standards. I do know from many conversations with him, that he respects the engineering rules. He has done things I would not, but I am sure that is true the other way round. If I felt his sub was unsafe like the experts did with Titan, then yes, I would suggest taking action. Have the experts sent letters to Karl, I wonder. When I say Karl is mostly to ABS rules, I am refuting the the pressure hull. The pressure hull is the issue with Titan after all. Titan seemed a nice simple design otherwise. Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 24, 2023, at 11:38 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > How do you know Idabel is built mostly to ABS rules? Because Stanley says so? > > As I used to tell Will Kohnen, there are only two kinds of submarines in the world; certified and non-certified. If a sub is not certified it doesn't matter what they are used for, what they carry, or how deep they dive; you do not know and cannot say with certainty whether it meets ABS standards regardless of who fabricated it. A non-certified vessel built by the best submarine builder in the world cannot be proven to be any more in compliance with ABS standards than the psubber that builds a non-certified K350 in their backyard. It is the certification that proves compliance to standards and that makes all non-certified submarines equal. I think we may all agree there can be obvious signs of an unsafe vessel, however in totality the concept of how "safe" a non-certified submarine is, is subjective. > > I don't have anything against Stanley and am not suggesting he be reigned in, however Sean has asked a perfectly reasonable question and I think before we start holding anyone accountable for the Titan loss we need to know whether the industry is going to endorse double standards or hold everyone to the same standard. > > Bringing the question back to you...take out the personalities, friendships, and acquaintances...look only at the facts...there is a non-certified submarine taking passengers-for-hire to a depth of 3000 feet in an unsupervised environment. Does PSUBS have a responsibility to petition ABS or the courts to intervene and stop the operation because it might be unsafe? > > Jon > > >> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:10:28 PM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Sean raises a good point. There is however a big difference. Karl?s sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering guidelines. My issue is not with being classed. Classing a sub does not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. The boiler plate waiver would apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case. >> Hank >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 14:04:16 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 12:04:16 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1438562524.4600459.1687629415748@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1438562524.4600459.1687629415748@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jon, I think I did say exactly what you just mentioned. A certification does not make a sub safer than a non certified sub. It only proves it is safer, we agree on that. I don?t think you lump all non certified subs together. Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 24, 2023, at 11:57 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > I am sure there will be some effort to restrict private submarine dives on the Titanic, but I agree with you and do not foresee a major impact to our recreational use of submarines. This story is already off the front page and as you suggest, other world events are going to take the spotlight. > > However as you also suggest, we need to remain vigilant and ready to defend our hobby from unreasonable government intrusion. We need to think of ourselves as a lobbying entity and act accordingly when necessary. We need to continue to promote building and operating our submarines in accordance with accepted industry standards. We need to be careful with our responses when people propose working with exotic or unproven designs and materials. I think supporting innovation is fine if it is performed in a methodical and open manner that is open to critique by the group. > > Jon > > >> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:54:35 PM EDT, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Excellent discussions all around here. >> >> I think it?s a reasonable assumption that most people participating in this endeavor receive some degree of skepticism or shock at the notion of taking this on oneself: Bear in mind there?s a difference between PR and opinion, and while there is some risk of knee-jerk reaction in the wake of these events, two things that I believe keep us insulated >> >> 1) The incredibly short memory of the general media-consuming public. Willing to bet a cold beverage of one?s choosing that in another week or so, deep sea design criteria will not be on anyone?s radar. There?s already some craziness in Russia, give that another day or two and tack on a vocal and reactionary personal attack from opposing political perspectives on a topic of your choice, and the interest will fade. >> >> 2) The lack of potential impact. Generally one?s errors have impacts on others, and that?s what generally drives greater outrage, and stamina for that outrage. Any threats to general aviation (As a risky, technically demanding parallel) generally occur when "public safety? is invoked. However, see topic #1 and consider the last time there has been a restriction based on that safety demand. (By now the biggest threat gen av faces is in the form of environmentally based arguments.) The impacts in submersible operations are remarkably insular. (Any public outrage will also be tempered in the Titan instance by the belief that wealthy people deserve anything they have coming.) Yes the SAR bill is a large one, and I believe that will become the overriding sentiment in discussions on the matter. >> >> The two points lead me to believe that this event poses little threat to the majority of PSubs membership. But it?s certainly worth being prepared in the event transport regulation does turn a large eye towards the group. >> >> Has there been any similar turn in the past? Do folks here believe holding up ABS (or similar) criteria will be sufficient? >> >> John >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 14:13:50 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 18:13:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1438562524.4600459.1687629415748@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <276825277.731167.1687630430861@mail.yahoo.com> Hank, just want to say I'm not trying to come down on you or Stanley...I'm enjoying reading everyone's comments.? For decades we have wondered what our world would be like when a highly visible issue arose.? Now we are experiencing it. Jon On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 02:06:05 PM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Jon,?I think I did say exactly what you just mentioned. ?A ?certification does not make a sub safer than a non certified sub. ?It only proves it is safer, we agree on that. ?I don?t think you lump all non certified subs together. ?Hank -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 14:19:59 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 11:19:59 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject) Message-ID: <0A964F06-B714-48A3-9281-FE7D12BD9836@gmail.com> Cliff, Another work trip to TX is pending. I?m willing to head down your way if you have time the weekend of August 5-6: Alternately, the end of the following week, Aug 10 or 11 would work for me if the weekend doesn?t. If there?s a chance and you have the time, mind coordinating with me on the side: johnbussard7525 at gmail.com ? Thanks again for the offer, understand if summer makes this a challenge in getting to. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 14:37:26 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 12:37:26 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <276825277.731167.1687630430861@mail.yahoo.com> References: <276825277.731167.1687630430861@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <22EDAA01-FB1D-40D2-8E48-0AF2CDF22D03@yahoo.ca> Jon, I did not feel you were coming down on us. I understand I am probably alone on this and expect push back. A group that is agreement on all topics and issues is not productive. Hank Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 24, 2023, at 12:14 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > Hank, just want to say I'm not trying to come down on you or Stanley...I'm enjoying reading everyone's comments. For decades we have wondered what our world would be like when a highly visible issue arose. Now we are experiencing it. > > Jon > > > > On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 02:06:05 PM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Jon, > I think I did say exactly what you just mentioned. A certification does not make a sub safer than a non certified sub. It only proves it is safer, we agree on that. I don?t think you lump all non certified subs together. > Hank > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 15:04:14 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 14:04:14 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1438562524.4600459.1687629415748@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1438562524.4600459.1687629415748@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7A0A0E2B-4268-4D44-AD27-3B39F2CE4D08@snyderemail.com> The work that Bryan Cox did with cement comes to mind. Methodical but definitely outside the norm. > On Jun 24, 2023, at 12:58 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > ? > I am sure there will be some effort to restrict private submarine dives on the Titanic, but I agree with you and do not foresee a major impact to our recreational use of submarines. This story is already off the front page and as you suggest, other world events are going to take the spotlight. > > However as you also suggest, we need to remain vigilant and ready to defend our hobby from unreasonable government intrusion. We need to think of ourselves as a lobbying entity and act accordingly when necessary. We need to continue to promote building and operating our submarines in accordance with accepted industry standards. We need to be careful with our responses when people propose working with exotic or unproven designs and materials. I think supporting innovation is fine if it is performed in a methodical and open manner that is open to critique by the group. > > Jon > > >> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:54:35 PM EDT, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> >> Excellent discussions all around here. >> >> I think it?s a reasonable assumption that most people participating in this endeavor receive some degree of skepticism or shock at the notion of taking this on oneself: Bear in mind there?s a difference between PR and opinion, and while there is some risk of knee-jerk reaction in the wake of these events, two things that I believe keep us insulated >> >> 1) The incredibly short memory of the general media-consuming public. Willing to bet a cold beverage of one?s choosing that in another week or so, deep sea design criteria will not be on anyone?s radar. There?s already some craziness in Russia, give that another day or two and tack on a vocal and reactionary personal attack from opposing political perspectives on a topic of your choice, and the interest will fade. >> >> 2) The lack of potential impact. Generally one?s errors have impacts on others, and that?s what generally drives greater outrage, and stamina for that outrage. Any threats to general aviation (As a risky, technically demanding parallel) generally occur when "public safety? is invoked. However, see topic #1 and consider the last time there has been a restriction based on that safety demand. (By now the biggest threat gen av faces is in the form of environmentally based arguments.) The impacts in submersible operations are remarkably insular. (Any public outrage will also be tempered in the Titan instance by the belief that wealthy people deserve anything they have coming.) Yes the SAR bill is a large one, and I believe that will become the overriding sentiment in discussions on the matter. >> >> The two points lead me to believe that this event poses little threat to the majority of PSubs membership. But it?s certainly worth being prepared in the event transport regulation does turn a large eye towards the group. >> >> Has there been any similar turn in the past? Do folks here believe holding up ABS (or similar) criteria will be sufficient? >> >> John >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 17:08:04 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 11:08:04 -1000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <7A0A0E2B-4268-4D44-AD27-3B39F2CE4D08@snyderemail.com> References: <1438562524.4600459.1687629415748@mail.yahoo.com> <7A0A0E2B-4268-4D44-AD27-3B39F2CE4D08@snyderemail.com> Message-ID: This has been quite an interesting thread and it's too bad it had to come from this event that just happened. I am glad that the pot has been sterred as everyone chipping in about an issue is what makes this group so effective when building a sub and I wish this happened more often, (not the disaster). My wife came up with an interesting comment yesterday as we watched this all unfold. She said that if a company wants to take thrill seekers deep in an uncertified and uninsured sub, that company should arrange in advance a salvage company to hold a retainer up front before the dives, that would be funded by the rich people that want to take risks, to go looking for them rather than one or in this case, 4 countries spending millions of taxpayers dollars to look for them or locate and salvage them. I am glad that we are all old enough to be able to voice our opinions to or about each other about our personal feelings and remain friendly. That is most important with a group like this. They are trying to pass a bill here in Hawaii that would make a hiker that goes on a dangerous trail and is posted as such, pay to be airlifted out on their dime instead of the taxpayers having to foot the bill which happens here quite a lot. I think we all take risks to varying degrees but we all need to know going into it the possible risks involved, it shouldn't come as a surprise that especially affects others. Hell, I went up to Canada years ago and jumped off a bridge before it was legal here in the U.S.with a rubber band tied around my ankles for the thrill but in this case, had to trust that they knew what they were doing and hoped they used a good rubber band! caveat emptor Getting ready to weld the back dome on soon and after that I think things will speed up and the light at the end of the tunnel will be getting much brighter! Gonna say about three months out???? Rick On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 9:05?AM Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > The work that Bryan Cox did with cement comes to mind. Methodical but > definitely outside the norm. > > On Jun 24, 2023, at 12:58 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > I am sure there will be some effort to restrict private submarine dives on > the Titanic, but I agree with you and do not foresee a major impact to > our recreational use of submarines. This story is already off the front > page and as you suggest, other world events are going to take the spotlight. > > However as you also suggest, we need to remain vigilant and ready to > defend our hobby from unreasonable government intrusion. We need to think > of ourselves as a lobbying entity and act accordingly when necessary. We > need to continue to promote building and operating our submarines in > accordance with accepted industry standards. We need to be careful with > our responses when people propose working with exotic or unproven designs > and materials. I think supporting innovation is fine if it is performed in > a methodical and open manner that is open to critique by the group. > > Jon > > > On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:54:35 PM EDT, John Bussard via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Excellent discussions all around here. > > I think it?s a reasonable assumption that most people participating in > this endeavor receive some degree of skepticism or shock at the notion of > taking this on oneself: Bear in mind there?s a difference between PR and > opinion, and while there is some risk of knee-jerk reaction in the wake of > these events, two things that I believe keep us insulated > > 1) The incredibly short memory of the general media-consuming public. > Willing to bet a cold beverage of one?s choosing that in another week or > so, deep sea design criteria will not be on anyone?s radar. There?s > already some craziness in Russia, give that another day or two and tack on > a vocal and reactionary personal attack from opposing political > perspectives on a topic of your choice, and the interest will fade. > > 2) The lack of potential impact. Generally one?s errors have impacts on > others, and that?s what generally drives greater outrage, and stamina for > that outrage. Any threats to general aviation (As a risky, technically > demanding parallel) generally occur when "public safety? is invoked. > However, see topic #1 and consider the last time there has been a > restriction based on that safety demand. (By now the biggest threat gen av > faces is in the form of environmentally based arguments.) The impacts in > submersible operations are remarkably insular. (Any public outrage will > also be tempered in the Titan instance by the belief that wealthy people > deserve anything they have coming.) Yes the SAR bill is a large one, and I > believe that will become the overriding sentiment in discussions on the > matter. > > The two points lead me to believe that this event poses little threat to > the majority of PSubs membership. But it?s certainly worth being prepared > in the event transport regulation does turn a large eye towards the group. > > Has there been any similar turn in the past? Do folks here believe > holding up ABS (or similar) criteria will be sufficient? > > John > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 18:20:51 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 15:20:51 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <1438562524.4600459.1687629415748@mail.yahoo.com> <7A0A0E2B-4268-4D44-AD27-3B39F2CE4D08@snyderemail.com> Message-ID: <89A01418-4D76-428D-91E9-15C6D6200932@gmail.com> Exciting news, Rick! > On Jun 24, 2023, at 2:08 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > This has been quite an interesting thread and it's too bad it had to come from this event that just happened. I am glad that the pot has been sterred as everyone chipping in about an issue is what makes this group so effective when building a sub and I wish this happened more often, (not the disaster). > My wife came up with an interesting comment yesterday as we watched this all unfold. She said that if a company wants to take thrill seekers deep in an uncertified and uninsured sub, that company should arrange in advance a salvage company to hold a retainer up front before the dives, that would be funded by the rich people that want to take risks, to go looking for them rather than one or in this case, 4 countries spending millions of taxpayers dollars to look for them or locate and salvage them. > I am glad that we are all old enough to be able to voice our opinions to or about each other about our personal feelings and remain friendly. That is most important with a group like this. > > They are trying to pass a bill here in Hawaii that would make a hiker that goes on a dangerous trail and is posted as such, pay to be airlifted out on their dime instead of the taxpayers having to foot the bill which happens here quite a lot. > I think we all take risks to varying degrees but we all need to know going into it the possible risks involved, it shouldn't come as a surprise that especially affects others. Hell, I went up to Canada years ago and jumped off a bridge before it was legal here in the U.S.with a rubber band tied around my ankles for the thrill but in this case, had to trust that they knew what they were doing and hoped they used a good rubber band! > caveat emptor > Getting ready to weld the back dome on soon and after that I think things will speed up and the light at the end of the tunnel will be getting much brighter! Gonna say about three months out???? > > Rick > > On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 9:05?AM Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >> The work that Bryan Cox did with cement comes to mind. Methodical but definitely outside the norm. >> >>> On Jun 24, 2023, at 12:58 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> I am sure there will be some effort to restrict private submarine dives on the Titanic, but I agree with you and do not foresee a major impact to our recreational use of submarines. This story is already off the front page and as you suggest, other world events are going to take the spotlight. >>> >>> However as you also suggest, we need to remain vigilant and ready to defend our hobby from unreasonable government intrusion. We need to think of ourselves as a lobbying entity and act accordingly when necessary. We need to continue to promote building and operating our submarines in accordance with accepted industry standards. We need to be careful with our responses when people propose working with exotic or unproven designs and materials. I think supporting innovation is fine if it is performed in a methodical and open manner that is open to critique by the group. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:54:35 PM EDT, John Bussard via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Excellent discussions all around here. >>> >>> I think it?s a reasonable assumption that most people participating in this endeavor receive some degree of skepticism or shock at the notion of taking this on oneself: Bear in mind there?s a difference between PR and opinion, and while there is some risk of knee-jerk reaction in the wake of these events, two things that I believe keep us insulated >>> >>> 1) The incredibly short memory of the general media-consuming public. Willing to bet a cold beverage of one?s choosing that in another week or so, deep sea design criteria will not be on anyone?s radar. There?s already some craziness in Russia, give that another day or two and tack on a vocal and reactionary personal attack from opposing political perspectives on a topic of your choice, and the interest will fade. >>> >>> 2) The lack of potential impact. Generally one?s errors have impacts on others, and that?s what generally drives greater outrage, and stamina for that outrage. Any threats to general aviation (As a risky, technically demanding parallel) generally occur when "public safety? is invoked. However, see topic #1 and consider the last time there has been a restriction based on that safety demand. (By now the biggest threat gen av faces is in the form of environmentally based arguments.) The impacts in submersible operations are remarkably insular. (Any public outrage will also be tempered in the Titan instance by the belief that wealthy people deserve anything they have coming.) Yes the SAR bill is a large one, and I believe that will become the overriding sentiment in discussions on the matter. >>> >>> The two points lead me to believe that this event poses little threat to the majority of PSubs membership. But it?s certainly worth being prepared in the event transport regulation does turn a large eye towards the group. >>> >>> Has there been any similar turn in the past? Do folks here believe holding up ABS (or similar) criteria will be sufficient? >>> >>> John >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sat Jun 24 18:53:04 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2023 22:53:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <22EDAA01-FB1D-40D2-8E48-0AF2CDF22D03@yahoo.ca> References: <276825277.731167.1687630430861@mail.yahoo.com> <22EDAA01-FB1D-40D2-8E48-0AF2CDF22D03@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1973699092.3391806.1687647184551@mail.yahoo.com> I had a technical advice contract with GL. I spent N.Z. $3000- just getting advice on how to interpret their rules.I had no intention of going under their survey but wanted to build closely to their rules.?It is a horrendous process. If you could understand their electrical, electronics, automation rules you would be able to wire up a super tanker. I have said before, they want to know the credentials of the foreman in the factory that produced the bolt you are using and what certifications the factory had. Any non standard item like our Minnkota thrusters would have to be sent to them for examination ( and no doubt fail). You would be forced to buy only components that had previously been stamped by them as having past their inspection, as having them access your off standard thruster, controller, lights etc would be more expensive.It is one rule fits all; whether you are a military sub, a 50ft?tourist sub or a 1 person sub. It doesn't matter whether you operate several times a day or go out twice a year, you still need an annual inspection, which may involve paying? for an inspector to fly out from Germany.I can see why Stockton didn't want that expense and bother as his operation probably wasn't big enough to afford it. There is a point where you are too small an operation to warrant it, & the fact that he was pushing the boundaries re depth & design would have been added costs.Carsten had a good idea with his Swiss certification for smaller subs that was less stringent.Stockton must have been pretty convinced about his analysis & testing of his hull as he was putting his own life on the line every time he went down. There is just some unforseen factor in the equation.?Alan? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sun, 25 Jun 2023 at 6:39 am, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 25 04:06:59 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 16:06:59 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> <5e26ed4c-5553-542a-477c-9e336551fc84@archivale.com> <17366235-138a-acb9-659a-89dd3f83061b@archivale.com> Message-ID: <079b5df0-0206-13c8-27fe-95fa9dfff469@archivale.com> I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list who built in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? Marc On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships! > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 24, 2023, at 6:41 AM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> ?And speaking of materials, does anybody know any source of information on the use of ferrocement in submersibles? I've found information on reinforced concrete, on prestressed concrete, but nothing on FC. >> >> Marc de Piolenc >> >>> On 6/24/2023 6:22 PM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> I just opened my folder on composite structures for submarines and submersibles. There are 28 items listed, going back to the early 1960s, and I wasn't looking very hard because I was pretty sure that there were no reliable sources here (Philippines) for the materials. >>> >>> It strikes me as odd that, with the likes of NASA and the David Taylor Model basin sponsoring or carrying out research on this topic, the use of composites is still considered unproven. >>> >>> Why is this? >>> >>> Marc de Piolenc >>> >>> >> -- >> Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com >> Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com >> ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com >> Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 25 06:11:45 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 10:11:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <079b5df0-0206-13c8-27fe-95fa9dfff469@archivale.com> References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> <5e26ed4c-5553-542a-477c-9e336551fc84@archivale.com> <17366235-138a-acb9-659a-89dd3f83061b@archivale.com> <079b5df0-0206-13c8-27fe-95fa9dfff469@archivale.com> Message-ID: <638680734.4731766.1687687905537@mail.yahoo.com> Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so ago.? His pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for the superstructure.??http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned submarine pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would find little support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. Jon On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list who built in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? Marc On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships! > > Sent from my iPhone > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 25 08:34:56 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 20:34:56 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <638680734.4731766.1687687905537@mail.yahoo.com> References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> <5e26ed4c-5553-542a-477c-9e336551fc84@archivale.com> <17366235-138a-acb9-659a-89dd3f83061b@archivale.com> <079b5df0-0206-13c8-27fe-95fa9dfff469@archivale.com> <638680734.4731766.1687687905537@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a superstructure on a conventional pressure hull. Very sorry? to hear about Brian Cox. Marc On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so ago.? > His pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for the > superstructure. > http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 > > > There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned submarine > pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would find little > support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. > > Jon > > > On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how > useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 > exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list who built > in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? > > Marc > > On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in the > ww2 , to make piers to in load ships! > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 25 09:54:39 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 08:54:39 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <89A01418-4D76-428D-91E9-15C6D6200932@gmail.com> References: <89A01418-4D76-428D-91E9-15C6D6200932@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7328B5F6-507E-44AA-ADE8-C7DDA5E1AA67@snyderemail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 25 11:07:38 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 11:07:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> <5e26ed4c-5553-542a-477c-9e336551fc84@archivale.com> <17366235-138a-acb9-659a-89dd3f83061b@archivale.com> <079b5df0-0206-13c8-27fe-95fa9dfff469@archivale.com> <638680734.4731766.1687687905537@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There's an interesting story about cement subs, which I will tell to the best of my recollection. In the early years we had a PSUBS member whose name I forget, I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had built a ferrocement sub that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub was successful, he dived it for years. But eventually he moved to Colombia due to marriage, and scuttled the sub in the lake, because the road he had used to take it there had been re-routed or modified somehow, leaving him without any way of getting it out. The sub became an attraction for local SCUBA divers. The second part of the story is that another PSUBS member, Ian Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a large cement sub with the intention of making it an ocean going live-aboard. The project was done completely on the level, with notification to authorities and in a major port. This was no drug sub built in the jungle. It got to the point where the hull was complete, and I think they were about for the first launch. However, Colombia being plagued by drug subs, the authorities would not sign off on final paperwork or something (can't remember the exact glitch.) Ian had sunk a ton of funds into it, and the sub was probably perfectly good, but approval never came. I'm not sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much active, so maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the email list. If you are, Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful memory! Best, Alec On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:35?AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a superstructure > on a conventional pressure hull. > > Very sorry to hear about Brian Cox. > > Marc > On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so ago. His > pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for the superstructure. > http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 > > There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned submarine > pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would find little support > for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. > > Jon > > > On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how > useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 > exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list who built > in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? > > Marc > > On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in the ww2 , > to make piers to in load ships! > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 25 12:16:23 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 10:16:23 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60A29AB2-1AF5-4BD4-B573-1DEDA8A257A6@yahoo.ca> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 25 15:01:35 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 19:01:35 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Concrete hull submarine Message-ID: <976d5bd4-c9e1-4cf7-fcdf-00c8c57b7e92@ix.netcom.com> Hi Alec, Yes, that's pretty much it. Wilfried Ellmer is the person who built the Swiss sub and started the one in Columbia. Short version: The construction phase was plagued with delays, including the shipyard we'd rented space from going bankrupt (twice), and one time all the managers were arrested and led off the site in handcuffs. Each delay added months, sometimes this would use up the dry part of year delaying work until next year. Eventually the launch permit expired, also the local administrator positions were rotated (every 4 years) and the incoming administrator were not happy to hear about a submarine being built in their jurisdiction. Ultimately they refused to reissue the launch permit and asked for a large sum of money each month for 'inspections' with the vague chance they would issue a launch permit later. Work on the project stopped here. Shortly after that the shipyard was sold to a energy company to be used as their private ship chandlers. There was a free-n-clear clause in the sale and the concrete submarine, now sitting right at the water's edge waiting to be launched, would cause problems and potentially trigger a lawsuit. In the end I denied ownership of the sub, based on it never officially being delivered. The sub sat in the shipyard for 10+ years after that. I would periodically check on it using Google maps satellite view. Most recently the sub was replaced by a pile of rubble, so I assume it had been destroyed. A few notes on the sub (from memory, so numbers might be off): Hull: Teardrop Construction: Slip cast reinforced concrete Length: 19meters Width: 4.5meters Operational depth: 300meters Crush depth: 2800meters Crew: 4 Operational dive time: 1 week Emergency life support: 3 weeks Viewports: 1 bow dome, 8 small "sky-light" viewports. ROV lockout chamber. Surface propulsion: Diesel engine Submerged propulsion: Electric Surface range: 2500 miles (not sure if that would end up being realistic) Submerged range: 50 miles ABS (and offshore concrete structure rules) was to be followed as much as possible, which did cause some disagreement... Ultimately I knew this project contained risk, and at the time I was able to accept that risk. I would consider doing this again, but in the USA, and with an improved design which should be more conducive to following ABS. Ideally this would be done in away so hulls could be cheaply manufactured for destructive testing. Cheers, Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Jun 25, 2023 8:08 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site There's an interesting story about cement subs, which I will tell to the best of my recollection. In the early years we had a PSUBS member whose name I forget, I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had built a ferrocement sub that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub was successful, he dived it for years. But eventually he moved to Colombia due to marriage, and scuttled the sub in the lake, because the road he had used to take it there had been re-routed or modified somehow, leaving him without any way of getting it out. The sub became an attraction for local SCUBA divers. The second part of the story is that another PSUBS member, Ian Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a large cement sub with the intention of making it an ocean going live-aboard. The project was done completely on the level, with notification to authorities and in a major port. This was no drug sub built in the jungle. It got to the point where the hull was complete, and I think they were about for the first launch. However, Colombia being plagued by drug subs, the authorities would not sign off on final paperwork or something (can't remember the exact glitch.) Ian had sunk a ton of funds into it, and the sub was probably perfectly good, but approval never came. I'm not sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much active, so maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the email list. If you are, Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful memory! Best, Alec On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:35?AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a superstructure on a conventional pressure hull. Very sorry to hear about Brian Cox. Marc On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so ago. His pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for the superstructure. http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned submarine pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would find little support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. Jon On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list who built in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there?MarcOn 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles wrote:> Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships!>> Sent from my iPhone> _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org)-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com (http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles)Mass Flow (ducted fans): ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 (http://massflow.archivale.com)Substack account: Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc (https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 25 19:10:19 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 23:10:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collapse of composite submarine hulls In-Reply-To: <60A29AB2-1AF5-4BD4-B573-1DEDA8A257A6@yahoo.ca> References: <60A29AB2-1AF5-4BD4-B573-1DEDA8A257A6@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <183361722.4895574.1687734619114@mail.yahoo.com> Some might find this interesting.? Some time ago I had entertained the idea of inviting this guy to our convention.? If he's still around it might be worth asking him.? I have to wonder if Ocean Gate ever consulted with him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwvUvIKhK1Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNGF07zryGw Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 25 19:35:33 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2023 23:35:33 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Collapse of composite submarine hulls In-Reply-To: <183361722.4895574.1687734619114@mail.yahoo.com> References: <60A29AB2-1AF5-4BD4-B573-1DEDA8A257A6@yahoo.ca> <183361722.4895574.1687734619114@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5n16ZJhEjzJ5XU9OOMmFSxd8p6nGefzCMcSjQ0ONq4pIs8ZVjsmFFDYYyKfX1l7ujBEcrkUXcafIbUSQQJF4Ap0U6C5sjZ5FZM2tZbvgTIo=@protonmail.com> Not too dissimilar from the work I'm doing now, except with steel instead of composites, and at full scale: https://www.cfertech.com/insights/deepwater-experimental-chamber/ With full scale specimens, we want to avoid the energy release associated with an instantaneous implosion, so we raise the pressure both inside and outside initially to the full test pressure, and then slowly drop the internal pressure, so we can recreate the buckling failure in slow motion. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 25, 2023, 17:10, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Some might find this interesting. Some time ago I had entertained the idea of inviting this guy to our convention. If he's still around it might be worth asking him. I have to wonder if Ocean Gate ever consulted with him. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwvUvIKhK1Q > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNGF07zryGw > > Jon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 25 21:14:00 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 09:14:00 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <80d3513a-4d59-618b-c16a-b0c1986835c8@archivale.com> <67D3320C-EA93-41F7-9CC9-E38A46C3C456@yahoo.ca> <5e26ed4c-5553-542a-477c-9e336551fc84@archivale.com> <17366235-138a-acb9-659a-89dd3f83061b@archivale.com> <079b5df0-0206-13c8-27fe-95fa9dfff469@archivale.com> <638680734.4731766.1687687905537@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0e022d2b-172b-9537-e861-89dd54a77699@archivale.com> If it's the guy I'm thinking of, the sub was made of reinforced concrete, not ferrocement. Marc On 6/25/2023 11:07 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > There's an interesting story about cement subs, which I will tell to > the best of my recollection. In the early years we had a PSUBS member > whose name I forget, I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had built a > ferrocement sub that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub was > successful, he dived it for years. But eventually he moved to Colombia > due to marriage, and scuttled the sub in the lake, because the road he > had used to take it there had been re-routed?or modified somehow, > leaving him without any way of getting it out. The sub became an > attraction for local SCUBA divers. > > The second part of the story is that another PSUBS member, Ian > Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a large cement sub with > the intention of making it an ocean going live-aboard. The project was > done completely on the level, with notification to authorities and in > a major port. This was no drug sub built in the?jungle. It got to the > point where the hull was complete,?and I think they were about for the > first launch. However, Colombia being plagued by drug subs, the > authorities would not sign off on final paperwork or something (can't > remember the exact glitch.) Ian had sunk a ton of funds into it, and > the sub was probably perfectly good, but approval never came. I'm not > sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much active, so > maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the email list. If you are, > Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful memory! > > Best, > Alec > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:35?AM Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a > superstructure on a conventional pressure hull. > > Very sorry? to hear about Brian Cox. > > Marc > > On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so >> ago.? His pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for >> the superstructure. >> http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 >> >> >> There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned >> submarine pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would >> find little support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. >> >> Jon >> >> >> On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via >> Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> >> I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how >> useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 >> exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list who >> built >> in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? >> >> Marc >> >> On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in >> the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships! >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 25 21:18:57 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 09:18:57 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <60A29AB2-1AF5-4BD4-B573-1DEDA8A257A6@yahoo.ca> References: <60A29AB2-1AF5-4BD4-B573-1DEDA8A257A6@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <5e3fc5ea-b795-e2b3-ea74-d40bbc54392e@archivale.com> If the cement was troweled on, that sounds more like ferrocement than RC. Reinforced concrete ships, of which there are many built during both World Wars, had the concrete poured in and vibrated to fill voids like in conventional concrete structures. A weakness of ferrocement is indeed that bad plastering can leave voids, which is why the successful FC boats were almost all professionally plastered. Nowadays there are instruments that can find voids that are otherwise invisible, and materials that can be used to fill at least some of them. At the very least, you know what you have and can govern yourself accordingly. What is Farrow cement? Never encountered the term... Marc de Piolenc On 6/26/2023 12:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec. The Swiss sub was concrete with a slip form method. ?I think > Farrow cement is troweled onto a mesh frame. ?I was pretty intrigued > by this also. A conversation with Sean made me change my mind. > ?Although concrete structures under water have a good track record, > the chance of a weak spot is too great. ?My business includes concrete > cutting, and often when cutting we hit spots that cut much easier > within the same pour. > Hank > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 25, 2023, at 9:08 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> ? >> There's an interesting story about cement subs, which I will tell to >> the best of my recollection. In the early years we had a PSUBS member >> whose name I forget, I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had built a >> ferrocement sub that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub >> was successful, he dived it for years. But eventually he moved to >> Colombia due to marriage, and scuttled the sub in the lake, because >> the road he had used to take it there had been re-routed?or modified >> somehow, leaving him without any way of getting it out. The sub >> became an attraction for local SCUBA divers. >> >> The second part of the story is that another PSUBS member, Ian >> Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a large cement sub with >> the intention of making it an ocean going live-aboard. The project >> was done completely on the level, with notification to authorities >> and in a major port. This was no drug sub built in the?jungle. It got >> to the point where the hull was complete,?and I think they were about >> for the first launch. However, Colombia being plagued by drug subs, >> the authorities would not sign off on final paperwork or something >> (can't remember the exact glitch.) Ian had sunk a ton of funds into >> it, and the sub was probably perfectly good, but approval never came. >> I'm not sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much >> active, so maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the email list. >> If you are, Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful memory! >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:35?AM Marc de Piolenc via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a >> superstructure on a conventional pressure hull. >> >> Very sorry? to hear about Brian Cox. >> >> Marc >> >> On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so >>> ago.? His pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for >>> the superstructure. >>> http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 >>> >>> >>> There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned >>> submarine pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would >>> find little support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via >>> Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how >>> useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 >>> exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list >>> who built >>> in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in >>> the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships! >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -- >> Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com >> Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com >> ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com >> Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Sun Jun 25 21:21:38 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 09:21:38 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Concrete hull submarine In-Reply-To: <976d5bd4-c9e1-4cf7-fcdf-00c8c57b7e92@ix.netcom.com> References: <976d5bd4-c9e1-4cf7-fcdf-00c8c57b7e92@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <4dffadf6-a249-d5c2-a4b0-4b082fdfa76c@archivale.com> How was the crush depth calculated? Marc de Piolenc On 6/26/2023 3:01 AM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alec, > > Yes, that's pretty much it. Wilfried Ellmer is the person who built > the Swiss sub and started the one in Columbia. > > Short version: > > The construction phase was plagued with delays, including the shipyard > we'd rented space from going bankrupt (twice), and one time all the > managers were arrested and led off the site in handcuffs. Each delay > added months, sometimes this would use up the dry part of year > delaying work until next year.? Eventually the launch permit expired, > also the local administrator positions were rotated (every 4 years) > and the incoming administrator were not happy to hear about a > submarine being built in their jurisdiction.? Ultimately they refused > to reissue the launch permit and asked for a large sum of money each > month for 'inspections' with the vague chance they would issue a > launch permit later.? Work on the project stopped here. > > Shortly after that the shipyard was sold to a energy company to be > used as their private ship chandlers.? There was a free-n-clear clause > in the sale and the concrete submarine, now sitting right at the > water's edge waiting to be launched, would cause problems and > potentially trigger a lawsuit.? In the end I denied ownership of the > sub, based on it never officially being delivered.? The sub sat in the > shipyard for 10+ years after that.? ?I would periodically check on it > using Google maps satellite view.? Most recently the sub was replaced > by a pile of rubble, so I assume it had been destroyed. > > A few notes on the sub (from memory, so numbers might be off): > > Hull: Teardrop > > Construction: Slip cast reinforced concrete > > Length: 19meters > > Width: 4.5meters > > Operational depth: 300meters > > Crush depth: 2800meters > > Crew: 4 > > Operational dive time: 1 week > > Emergency life support: 3 weeks > > Viewports: 1 bow dome, 8 small "sky-light" viewports. > > ROV lockout chamber. > > Surface propulsion: Diesel engine > > Submerged propulsion: Electric > > Surface range: 2500 miles (not sure if that would end up being realistic) > > Submerged range: 50 miles > > ABS (and offshore concrete structure rules)?was to be followed as much > as possible, which did cause some disagreement... > > Ultimately I knew this project contained risk, and at the time I was > able to accept that risk. > > I would consider doing this again, but in the USA, and with an > improved design which should be more conducive to following ABS.? > Ideally this would be done in away so hulls could be cheaply > manufactured for destructive testing. > > Cheers, > > ? Ian. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Jun 25, 2023 8:08 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > There's an interesting story about cement subs, which I will tell to > the best of my recollection. In the early years we had a PSUBS member > whose name I forget, I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had built a > ferrocement sub that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub was > successful, he dived it for years. But eventually he moved to Colombia > due to marriage, and scuttled the sub in the lake, because the road he > had used to take it there had been re-routed?or modified somehow, > leaving him without any way of getting it out. The sub became an > attraction for local SCUBA divers. > The second part of the story is that another PSUBS member, Ian > Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a large cement sub with > the intention of making it an ocean going live-aboard. The project was > done completely on the level, with notification to authorities and in > a major port. This was no drug sub built in the?jungle. It got to the > point where the hull was complete,?and I think they were about for the > first launch. However, Colombia being plagued by drug subs, the > authorities would not sign off on final paperwork or something (can't > remember the exact glitch.) Ian had sunk a ton of funds into it, and > the sub was probably perfectly good, but approval never came. I'm not > sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much active, so > maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the email list. If you are, > Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful memory! > Best, > Alec > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:35?AM Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a > superstructure on a conventional pressure hull. > > Very sorry? to hear about Brian Cox. > > Marc > > On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so > ago.? His pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement > for the superstructure. > http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 > > There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned > submarine pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would > find little support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. > Jon > On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc > via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me > wonder how > useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a > 2010 > exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list > who built > in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? > > Marc > > On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges > in the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships! > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 06:52:35 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 18:52:35 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <60A29AB2-1AF5-4BD4-B573-1DEDA8A257A6@yahoo.ca> References: <60A29AB2-1AF5-4BD4-B573-1DEDA8A257A6@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <8ae61c79-9579-57b6-49e6-2cb292dc73f8@archivale.com> When you encounter an easy-to-cut section of concrete, do you find a void there (air bubble) or a place where the concrete exists, but has stratified of been allowed to dry before setting? Marc de Piolenc On 6/26/2023 12:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec. The Swiss sub was concrete with a slip form method. ?I think > Farrow cement is troweled onto a mesh frame. ?I was pretty intrigued > by this also. A conversation with Sean made me change my mind. > ?Although concrete structures under water have a good track record, > the chance of a weak spot is too great. ?My business includes concrete > cutting, and often when cutting we hit spots that cut much easier > within the same pour. > Hank > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 25, 2023, at 9:08 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> wrote: >> >> ? >> There's an interesting story about cement subs, which I will tell to >> the best of my recollection. In the early years we had a PSUBS member >> whose name I forget, I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had built a >> ferrocement sub that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub >> was successful, he dived it for years. But eventually he moved to >> Colombia due to marriage, and scuttled the sub in the lake, because >> the road he had used to take it there had been re-routed?or modified >> somehow, leaving him without any way of getting it out. The sub >> became an attraction for local SCUBA divers. >> >> The second part of the story is that another PSUBS member, Ian >> Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a large cement sub with >> the intention of making it an ocean going live-aboard. The project >> was done completely on the level, with notification to authorities >> and in a major port. This was no drug sub built in the?jungle. It got >> to the point where the hull was complete,?and I think they were about >> for the first launch. However, Colombia being plagued by drug subs, >> the authorities would not sign off on final paperwork or something >> (can't remember the exact glitch.) Ian had sunk a ton of funds into >> it, and the sub was probably perfectly good, but approval never came. >> I'm not sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much >> active, so maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the email list. >> If you are, Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful memory! >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:35?AM Marc de Piolenc via >> Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >> That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a >> superstructure on a conventional pressure hull. >> >> Very sorry? to hear about Brian Cox. >> >> Marc >> >> On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so >>> ago.? His pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for >>> the superstructure. >>> http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 >>> >>> >>> There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned >>> submarine pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would >>> find little support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via >>> Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how >>> useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 >>> exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list >>> who built >>> in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in >>> the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships! >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -- >> Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com >> Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com >> ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com >> Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 07:56:15 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 06:56:15 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABC News coverage Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: maxresdefault.jpg Type: image/png Size: 127011 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 09:00:33 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 13:00:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABC News coverage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453452342.1213264.1687784433998@mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, James Cameron "Mr. Expert".? If I remember correctly his Deepsea Challenger is not certified. Jon On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 07:58:21 AM EDT, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: | | | | 'There is no excuse for what happened here': Director James Cameron on Titanic sub tragedyyoutu.be | | I hope this link is useful for some.?Bob Ballard (who rediscovered Titanic) and James Cameron.?James Cameron couldn?t stop talking about the need to certify subs. ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 09:33:15 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 13:33:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <8ae61c79-9579-57b6-49e6-2cb292dc73f8@archivale.com> References: <60A29AB2-1AF5-4BD4-B573-1DEDA8A257A6@yahoo.ca> <8ae61c79-9579-57b6-49e6-2cb292dc73f8@archivale.com> Message-ID: <1543759126.5093037.1687786395038@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Mark,We do not find air pockets, in most cases the concrete is vibrated. ?I think the issue is aggregate segregation. ?Before concrete pumps, long chutes ?witch will allow the aggregate to separate from the mix. ?This common with those mixer trucks that mix on the spot also.Hank On Monday, June 26, 2023, 04:52:54 AM MDT, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: When you encounter an easy-to-cut section of concrete, do you find a void there (air bubble) or a place where the concrete exists, but has stratified of been allowed to dry before setting? Marc de Piolenc On 6/26/2023 12:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Alec. The Swiss sub was concrete with a slip form method. ?I think Farrow cement is troweled onto a mesh frame. ?I was pretty intrigued by this also. A conversation with Sean made me change my mind. ?Although concrete structures under water have a good track record, the chance of a weak spot is too great. ?My business includes concrete cutting, and often when cutting we hit spots that cut much easier within the same pour. ? Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jun 25, 2023, at 9:08 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles wrote: ? There's an interesting story about cement subs, which I will tell to the best of my recollection. In the early years we had a PSUBS member whose name I forget, I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had built a ferrocement sub that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub was successful, he dived it for years. But eventually he moved to Colombia due to marriage, and scuttled the sub in the lake, because the road he had used to take it there had been re-routed?or modified somehow, leaving him without any way of getting it out. The sub became an attraction for local SCUBA divers.? The second part of the story is that another PSUBS member, Ian Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a large cement sub with the intention of making it an ocean going live-aboard. The project was done completely on the level, with notification to authorities and in a major port. This was no drug sub built in the?jungle. It got to the point where the hull was complete,?and I think they were about for the first launch. However, Colombia being plagued by drug subs, the authorities would not sign off on final paperwork or something (can't remember the exact glitch.) Ian had sunk a ton of funds into it, and the sub was probably perfectly good, but approval never came. I'm not sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much active, so maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the email list. If you are, Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful memory! Best, Alec On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:35?AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a superstructure on a conventional pressure hull. Very sorry? to hear about Brian Cox. Marc On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so ago.? His pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for the superstructure.??http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned submarine pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would find little support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. Jon On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list who built in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? Marc On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships! > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 10:14:27 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 09:14:27 -0500 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABC News coverage In-Reply-To: <453452342.1213264.1687784433998@mail.yahoo.com> References: <453452342.1213264.1687784433998@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3379A8FE-1C63-4734-A09F-3F0DF68A7AAB@snyderemail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 11:06:30 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 09:06:30 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABC News coverage In-Reply-To: <3379A8FE-1C63-4734-A09F-3F0DF68A7AAB@snyderemail.com> References: <3379A8FE-1C63-4734-A09F-3F0DF68A7AAB@snyderemail.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 14:02:05 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 14:02:05 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Snoopy NOT for sale! Message-ID: Group: late last year I shared an email stating that I wanted to sell Snoopster. In the wake of this Titan disaster I've decided not to sell her. I'll have her back in the water soon. ~ Douglas -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 15:16:19 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (irox via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 19:16:19 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Concrete hull submarine Message-ID: Hi Marc, that was a long time... I believe it was the unsupported/unstiffened thin wall formula (possible from C T F Ross Pressure Vessel's book). It does seem a bit high, possibly I'm mis-remembering/guessing, but I do remember it was a lot higher than expected. During concrete pouring a sample of each pour was taken, these samples would need to be tested to determine the properties of the actual concrete used. Those test results would then be used to more accurately estimate collapse depth. Wilfried's site is still up with some pictures and links to videos: http://concretesubmarine.com/ Thanks, Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Jun 25, 2023 6:22 PM To: irox via Personal_Submersibles Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Concrete hull submarine How was the crush depth calculated? Marc de Piolenc On 6/26/2023 3:01 AM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hi Alec, Yes, that's pretty much it. Wilfried Ellmer is the person who built the Swiss sub and started the one in Columbia. Short version: The construction phase was plagued with delays, including the shipyard we'd rented space from going bankrupt (twice), and one time all the managers were arrested and led off the site in handcuffs. Each delay added months, sometimes this would use up the dry part of year delaying work until next year. Eventually the launch permit expired, also the local administrator positions were rotated (every 4 years) and the incoming administrator were not happy to hear about a submarine being built in their jurisdiction. Ultimately they refused to reissue the launch permit and asked for a large sum of money each month for 'inspections' with the vague chance they would issue a launch permit later. Work on the project stopped here. Shortly after that the shipyard was sold to a energy company to be used as their private ship chandlers. There was a free-n-clear clause in the sale and the concrete submarine, now sitting right at the water's edge waiting to be launched, would cause problems and potentially trigger a lawsuit. In the end I denied ownership of the sub, based on it never officially being delivered. The sub sat in the shipyard for 10+ years after that. I would periodically check on it using Google maps satellite view. Most recently the sub was replaced by a pile of rubble, so I assume it had been destroyed. A few notes on the sub (from memory, so numbers might be off): Hull: Teardrop Construction: Slip cast reinforced concrete Length: 19meters Width: 4.5meters Operational depth: 300meters Crush depth: 2800meters Crew: 4 Operational dive time: 1 week Emergency life support: 3 weeks Viewports: 1 bow dome, 8 small "sky-light" viewports. ROV lockout chamber. Surface propulsion: Diesel engine Submerged propulsion: Electric Surface range: 2500 miles (not sure if that would end up being realistic) Submerged range: 50 miles ABS (and offshore concrete structure rules) was to be followed as much as possible, which did cause some disagreement... Ultimately I knew this project contained risk, and at the time I was able to accept that risk. I would consider doing this again, but in the USA, and with an improved design which should be more conducive to following ABS. Ideally this would be done in away so hulls could be cheaply manufactured for destructive testing. Cheers, Ian. -----Original Message----- From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) Sent: Jun 25, 2023 8:08 AM To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site There's an interesting story about cement subs, which I will tell to the best of my recollection. In the early years we had a PSUBS member whose name I forget, I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had built a ferrocement sub that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub was successful, he dived it for years. But eventually he moved to Colombia due to marriage, and scuttled the sub in the lake, because the road he had used to take it there had been re-routed or modified somehow, leaving him without any way of getting it out. The sub became an attraction for local SCUBA divers. The second part of the story is that another PSUBS member, Ian Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a large cement sub with the intention of making it an ocean going live-aboard. The project was done completely on the level, with notification to authorities and in a major port. This was no drug sub built in the jungle. It got to the point where the hull was complete, and I think they were about for the first launch. However, Colombia being plagued by drug subs, the authorities would not sign off on final paperwork or something (can't remember the exact glitch.) Ian had sunk a ton of funds into it, and the sub was probably perfectly good, but approval never came. I'm not sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much active, so maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the email list. If you are, Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful memory! Best, Alec On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:35?AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a superstructure on a conventional pressure hull. Very sorry to hear about Brian Cox. Marc On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so ago. His pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for the superstructure. http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned submarine pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would find little support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. Jon On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles (mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list who built in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there?MarcOn 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles wrote:> Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships!>> Sent from my iPhone> _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org)-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com (http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles)Mass Flow (ducted fans): ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 (http://massflow.archivale.com)Substack account: Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc (https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com) _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.org (mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org)-- Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com (http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles)Mass Flow (ducted fans): ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 (http://massflow.archivale.com)Substack account: Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc (https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 15:18:56 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 15:18:56 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Snoopy NOT for sale! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is super good news!!! Best, Alec On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 2:02?PM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Group: late last year I shared an email stating that I wanted to sell > Snoopster. In the wake of this Titan disaster I've decided not to sell her. > I'll have her back in the water soon. ~ Douglas > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 16:04:13 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 20:04:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Snoopy NOT for sale! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <915364246.3032687.1687809853968@mail.yahoo.com> Great news, Doug.Vance -----Original Message----- From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Sent: Mon, Jun 26, 2023 3:18 pm Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Snoopy NOT for sale! That is super good news!!! Best, Alec On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 2:02?PM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Group: late last year I shared an email stating that I wanted to sell Snoopster. In the wake of this Titan disaster I've decided not to sell her. I'll have her back in the water soon. ~ Douglas?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 17:11:28 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 15:11:28 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Snoopy NOT for sale! In-Reply-To: <915364246.3032687.1687809853968@mail.yahoo.com> References: <915364246.3032687.1687809853968@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 18:32:19 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2023 22:32:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABC News coverage In-Reply-To: <453452342.1213264.1687784433998@mail.yahoo.com> References: <453452342.1213264.1687784433998@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1225088989.5480169.1687818739722@mail.yahoo.com> I remember reading an article where Cameron was proud of the fact that they were doing things different.Even recall that they were using medical IV bags, I think for sone sort of equalization.Alan Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, 27 Jun 2023 at 1:03 am, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 23:11:47 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 11:11:47 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1543759126.5093037.1687786395038@mail.yahoo.com> References: <60A29AB2-1AF5-4BD4-B573-1DEDA8A257A6@yahoo.ca> <8ae61c79-9579-57b6-49e6-2cb292dc73f8@archivale.com> <1543759126.5093037.1687786395038@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <163e1be6-4f5c-e266-24cf-9e4a14283b27@archivale.com> Soooo. Stratification. Sounds like a good argument for using pumps if you're using premix. Marc On 6/26/2023 9:33 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Hi Mark, > We do not find air pockets, in most cases the concrete is vibrated. ?I > think the issue is aggregate segregation. ?Before concrete pumps, long > chutes ?witch will allow the aggregate to separate from the mix. ?This > common with those mixer trucks that mix on the spot also. > Hank > > On Monday, June 26, 2023, 04:52:54 AM MDT, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > When you encounter an easy-to-cut section of concrete, do you find a > void there (air bubble) or a place where the concrete exists, but has > stratified of been allowed to dry before setting? > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 6/26/2023 12:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Alec. The Swiss sub was concrete with a slip form method. ?I think > Farrow cement is troweled onto a mesh frame. ?I was pretty intrigued > by this also. A conversation with Sean made me change my mind. > ?Although concrete structures under water have a good track record, > the chance of a weak spot is too great. ?My business includes concrete > cutting, and often when cutting we hit spots that cut much easier > within the same pour. > Hank > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 25, 2023, at 9:08 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles >> >> wrote: >> >> ? >> There's an interesting story about cement subs, which I will tell to >> the best of my recollection. In the early years we had a PSUBS member >> whose name I forget, I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had built a >> ferrocement sub that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub >> was successful, he dived it for years. But eventually he moved to >> Colombia due to marriage, and scuttled the sub in the lake, because >> the road he had used to take it there had been re-routed?or modified >> somehow, leaving him without any way of getting it out. The sub >> became an attraction for local SCUBA divers. >> >> The second part of the story is that another PSUBS member, Ian >> Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a large cement sub with >> the intention of making it an ocean going live-aboard. The project >> was done completely on the level, with notification to authorities >> and in a major port. This was no drug sub built in the?jungle. It got >> to the point where the hull was complete,?and I think they were about >> for the first launch. However, Colombia being plagued by drug subs, >> the authorities would not sign off on final paperwork or something >> (can't remember the exact glitch.) Ian had sunk a ton of funds into >> it, and the sub was probably perfectly good, but approval never came. >> I'm not sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much >> active, so maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the email list. >> If you are, Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful memory! >> >> Best, >> Alec >> >> On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:35?AM Marc de Piolenc via >> Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: >> >> That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a >> superstructure on a conventional pressure hull. >> >> Very sorry? to hear about Brian Cox. >> >> Marc >> >> On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so >>> ago.? His pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for >>> the superstructure. >>> http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 >>> >>> >>> There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned >>> submarine pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would >>> find little support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via >>> Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how >>> useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 >>> exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list >>> who built >>> in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles >>> wrote: >>> > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in >>> the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships! >>> > >>> > Sent from my iPhone >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> -- >> Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com >> Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com >> ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >> Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com >> Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -- > Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Mon Jun 26 23:23:33 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 11:23:33 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Concrete hull submarine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61f66027-ffa4-3fe7-3674-340d618cfdcd@archivale.com> Thanks for the reference! Marc On 6/27/2023 3:16 AM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Marc, > > that was a long time...? I believe it was the unsupported/unstiffened > thin wall formula (possible from C T F Ross Pressure Vessel's book).? > It does seem a bit high, possibly I'm mis-remembering/guessing, but I > do remember it was a lot higher than expected.? During concrete > pouring a sample of each pour was taken, these samples would need to > be tested to determine the properties of the actual concrete used.? > Those test results would then be used to more accurately estimate > collapse depth. > > Wilfried's site is still up with some pictures and links to videos: > > http://concretesubmarine.com/ > > Thanks, > > ? Ian. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Jun 25, 2023 6:22 PM > To: irox via Personal_Submersibles > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Concrete hull submarine > > How was the crush depth calculated? > > Marc de Piolenc > > On 6/26/2023 3:01 AM, irox via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Alec, > > Yes, that's pretty much it. Wilfried Ellmer is the person who > built the Swiss sub and started the one in Columbia. > > Short version: > > The construction phase was plagued with delays, including the > shipyard we'd rented space from going bankrupt (twice), and one > time all the managers were arrested and led off the site in > handcuffs.? Each delay added months, sometimes this would use up > the dry part of year delaying work until next year.? Eventually > the launch permit expired, also the local administrator positions > were rotated (every 4 years) and the incoming administrator were > not happy to hear about a submarine being built in their > jurisdiction. Ultimately they refused to reissue the launch permit > and asked for a large sum of money each month for 'inspections' > with the vague chance they would issue a launch permit later.? > Work on the project stopped here. > > Shortly after that the shipyard was sold to a energy company to be > used as their private ship chandlers.? There was a free-n-clear > clause in the sale and the concrete submarine, now sitting right > at the water's edge waiting to be launched, would cause problems > and potentially trigger a lawsuit.? In the end I denied ownership > of the sub, based on it never officially being delivered.? The sub > sat in the shipyard for 10+ years after that.? ?I would > periodically check on it using Google maps satellite view.? Most > recently the sub was replaced by a pile of rubble, so I assume it > had been destroyed. > > A few notes on the sub (from memory, so numbers might be off): > > Hull: Teardrop > > Construction: Slip cast reinforced concrete > > Length: 19meters > > Width: 4.5meters > > Operational depth: 300meters > > Crush depth: 2800meters > > Crew: 4 > > Operational dive time: 1 week > > Emergency life support: 3 weeks > > Viewports: 1 bow dome, 8 small "sky-light" viewports. > > ROV lockout chamber. > > Surface propulsion: Diesel engine > > Submerged propulsion: Electric > > Surface range: 2500 miles (not sure if that would end up being > realistic) > > Submerged range: 50 miles > > ABS (and offshore concrete structure rules)?was to be followed as > much as possible, which did cause some disagreement... > > Ultimately I knew this project contained risk, and at the time I > was able to accept that risk. > > I would consider doing this again, but in the USA, and with an > improved design which should be more conducive to following ABS.? > Ideally this would be done in away so hulls could be cheaply > manufactured for destructive testing. > > Cheers, > > ? Ian. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Sent: Jun 25, 2023 8:08 AM > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > There's an interesting story about cement subs, which I will tell > to the best of my recollection. In the early years we had a PSUBS > member whose name I forget, I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had > built a ferrocement sub that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. > The sub was successful, he dived it for years. But eventually he > moved to Colombia due to marriage, and scuttled the sub in the > lake, because the road he had used to take it there had been > re-routed?or modified somehow, leaving him without any way of > getting it out. The sub became an attraction for local SCUBA divers. > The second part of the story is that another PSUBS member, Ian > Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a large cement sub > with the intention of making it an ocean going live-aboard. The > project was done completely on the level, with notification to > authorities and in a major port. This was no drug sub built in > the?jungle. It got to the point where the hull was complete,?and I > think they were about for the first launch. However, Colombia > being plagued by drug subs, the authorities would not sign off on > final paperwork or something (can't remember the exact glitch.) > Ian had sunk a ton of funds into it, and the sub was probably > perfectly good, but approval never came. I'm not sure what > happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much active, so maybe > can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the email list. If you are, > Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful memory! > Best, > Alec > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:35?AM Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a > superstructure on a conventional pressure hull. > > Very sorry? to hear about Brian Cox. > > Marc > > On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year > or so ago.? His pressure hull was steel but he did use > ferrocement for the superstructure. > http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 > > There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned > submarine pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it > would find little support for the project given the Ocean > Gate loss. > Jon > On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de > Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles > > wrote: > I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me > wonder how > useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there > is a 2010 > exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this > list who built > in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? > > Marc > > On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing > barges in the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships! > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 27 03:45:58 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 01:45:58 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <163e1be6-4f5c-e266-24cf-9e4a14283b27@archivale.com> References: <163e1be6-4f5c-e266-24cf-9e4a14283b27@archivale.com> Message-ID: <5F0FACE1-7CA2-4C6F-A522-21ACA8716CE2@yahoo.ca> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 27 17:50:59 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 17:50:59 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <5F0FACE1-7CA2-4C6F-A522-21ACA8716CE2@yahoo.ca> References: <163e1be6-4f5c-e266-24cf-9e4a14283b27@archivale.com> <5F0FACE1-7CA2-4C6F-A522-21ACA8716CE2@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: This is the sort of BS I'm talking about. I know it'll die down eventually, but this is PAINFUL (someone listed a 'submersible controller' on eBay). ~ Doug https://www.ebay.com/itm/166188209542?hash=item26b196d586:g:zi4AAOSwhxJklQ1D&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4EcRsYtJc3qYkpxbkNoKcopgiR1P6jRS68SW%2Fa%2FvePMWBC1CsRVK8oty6UAtcr87P8Ze4h1TK2CCjVl%2Bd81cbJGMRGrLBVhvIrQ4mCkjPt4EuFaT81WxpSZNqrHg%2BQXzeVYHh7vLFjXjirZHuYMbyyPJxXfko0IfVNZsxJgqilNJJjRF43nGVJiH3OQ%2FS0j9a1RSuAOQo0%2BdMNUvdrySWx23IxsvZd7bOMjG7PQOCAjmzwJlMS4FCOGF2zywjBlYLcVADyWY1F2FWnMRLp1KpYHRZpX%2FHKNpWXvSem8wtuXp%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5jPm-2fYg On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 3:46?AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > No strait or of truck and into form is best, less chance of segregation > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 26, 2023, at 9:12 PM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > > Soooo. Stratification. Sounds like a good argument for using pumps if > you're using premix. > > Marc > On 6/26/2023 9:33 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Hi Mark, > We do not find air pockets, in most cases the concrete is vibrated. I > think the issue is aggregate segregation. Before concrete pumps, long > chutes witch will allow the aggregate to separate from the mix. This > common with those mixer trucks that mix on the spot also. > Hank > > On Monday, June 26, 2023, 04:52:54 AM MDT, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > When you encounter an easy-to-cut section of concrete, do you find a void > there (air bubble) or a place where the concrete exists, but has stratified > of been allowed to dry before setting? > > Marc de Piolenc > On 6/26/2023 12:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Alec. The Swiss sub was concrete with a slip form method. I think Farrow > cement is troweled onto a mesh frame. I was pretty intrigued by this also. > A conversation with Sean made me change my mind. Although concrete > structures under water have a good track record, the chance of a weak spot > is too great. My business includes concrete cutting, and often when > cutting we hit spots that cut much easier within the same pour. > Hank > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 25, 2023, at 9:08 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > ? > There's an interesting story about cement subs, which I will tell to the > best of my recollection. In the early years we had a PSUBS member whose > name I forget, I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had built a ferrocement sub > that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub was successful, he dived > it for years. But eventually he moved to Colombia due to marriage, and > scuttled the sub in the lake, because the road he had used to take it there > had been re-routed or modified somehow, leaving him without any way of > getting it out. The sub became an attraction for local SCUBA divers. > > The second part of the story is that another PSUBS member, Ian Roxborough, > hired the first guy to build him a large cement sub with the intention of > making it an ocean going live-aboard. The project was done completely on > the level, with notification to authorities and in a major port. This was > no drug sub built in the jungle. It got to the point where the hull was > complete, and I think they were about for the first launch. However, > Colombia being plagued by drug subs, the authorities would not sign off on > final paperwork or something (can't remember the exact glitch.) Ian had > sunk a ton of funds into it, and the sub was probably perfectly good, but > approval never came. I'm not sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is > still very much active, so maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the > email list. If you are, Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful > memory! > > Best, > Alec > > On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:35?AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a superstructure > on a conventional pressure hull. > > Very sorry to hear about Brian Cox. > > Marc > On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so ago. His > pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for the superstructure. > http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 > > There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned submarine > pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would find little support > for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. > > Jon > > > On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how > useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 > exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list who built > in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? > > Marc > > On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in the ww2 , > to make piers to in load ships! > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Tue Jun 27 18:15:36 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2023 22:15:36 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <163e1be6-4f5c-e266-24cf-9e4a14283b27@archivale.com> <5F0FACE1-7CA2-4C6F-A522-21ACA8716CE2@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: On that particular topic, I like the idea of these for both vessel and manipulator control: https://3dconnexion.com/ca/product/spacemouse-module/ Only IP54, and no industrial robustness cert, but more polished than an XBox controller, and without the $5000 price tag. ;-) Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 27, 2023, 15:50, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > This is the sort of BS I'm talking about. I know it'll die down eventually, but this is PAINFUL (someone listed a 'submersible controller' on eBay). ~ Doug > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/166188209542?hash=item26b196d586:g:zi4AAOSwhxJklQ1D&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4EcRsYtJc3qYkpxbkNoKcopgiR1P6jRS68SW%2Fa%2FvePMWBC1CsRVK8oty6UAtcr87P8Ze4h1TK2CCjVl%2Bd81cbJGMRGrLBVhvIrQ4mCkjPt4EuFaT81WxpSZNqrHg%2BQXzeVYHh7vLFjXjirZHuYMbyyPJxXfko0IfVNZsxJgqilNJJjRF43nGVJiH3OQ%2FS0j9a1RSuAOQo0%2BdMNUvdrySWx23IxsvZd7bOMjG7PQOCAjmzwJlMS4FCOGF2zywjBlYLcVADyWY1F2FWnMRLp1KpYHRZpX%2FHKNpWXvSem8wtuXp%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5jPm-2fYg > > On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 3:46?AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > >> No strait or of truck and into form is best, less chance of segregation >> Hank >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jun 26, 2023, at 9:12 PM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >> >>> ? >>> >>> Soooo. Stratification. Sounds like a good argument for using pumps if you're using premix. >>> >>> Marc >>> >>> On 6/26/2023 9:33 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Mark, >>>> We do not find air pockets, in most cases the concrete is vibrated. I think the issue is aggregate segregation. Before concrete pumps, long chutes witch will allow the aggregate to separate from the mix. This common with those mixer trucks that mix on the spot also. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> On Monday, June 26, 2023, 04:52:54 AM MDT, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles [](mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: >>>> >>>> When you encounter an easy-to-cut section of concrete, do you find a void there (air bubble) or a place where the concrete exists, but has stratified of been allowed to dry before setting? >>>> >>>> Marc de Piolenc >>>> >>>> On 6/26/2023 12:16 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Alec. The Swiss sub was concrete with a slip form method. I think Farrow cement is troweled onto a mesh frame. I was pretty intrigued by this also. A conversation with Sean made me change my mind. Although concrete structures under water have a good track record, the chance of a weak spot is too great. My business includes concrete cutting, and often when cutting we hit spots that cut much easier within the same pour. >>>> Hank >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Jun 25, 2023, at 9:08 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles [](mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: >>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> There's an interesting story about cement subs, which I will tell to the best of my recollection. In the early years we had a PSUBS member whose name I forget, I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had built a ferrocement sub that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub was successful, he dived it for years. But eventually he moved to Colombia due to marriage, and scuttled the sub in the lake, because the road he had used to take it there had been re-routed or modified somehow, leaving him without any way of getting it out. The sub became an attraction for local SCUBA divers. >>>>> >>>>> The second part of the story is that another PSUBS member, Ian Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a large cement sub with the intention of making it an ocean going live-aboard. The project was done completely on the level, with notification to authorities and in a major port. This was no drug sub built in the jungle. It got to the point where the hull was complete, and I think they were about for the first launch. However, Colombia being plagued by drug subs, the authorities would not sign off on final paperwork or something (can't remember the exact glitch.) Ian had sunk a ton of funds into it, and the sub was probably perfectly good, but approval never came. I'm not sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much active, so maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the email list. If you are, Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful memory! >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Alec >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 8:35?AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built a superstructure on a conventional pressure hull. >>>>>> >>>>>> Very sorry to hear about Brian Cox. >>>>>> >>>>>> Marc >>>>>> >>>>>> On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who passed away a year or so ago. His pressure hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for the superstructure. http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are no standards for using ferrocement as a manned submarine pressure hull and I think anyone attempting it would find little support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles [](mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org) wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know. I fell in love with FC for yachts, which made me wonder how >>>>>>> useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns out there is a 2010 >>>>>>> exchange of messages in my archive with somebody on this list who built >>>>>>> in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marc >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via Personal_Submersibles wrote: >>>>>>>> Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the landing barges in the ww2 , to make piers to in load ships! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Archivale catalog: >>>>>> http://www.archivale.com >>>>>> Mass Flow (ducted fans): >>>>>> http://massflow.archivale.com >>>>>> ProZ profile: >>>>>> https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>>>>> Substack account: >>>>>> https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com >>>>>> Pinterest: >>>>>> https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Archivale catalog: >>>> http://www.archivale.com >>>> Mass Flow (ducted fans): >>>> http://massflow.archivale.com >>>> ProZ profile: >>>> https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>>> Substack account: >>>> https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com >>>> Pinterest: >>>> https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>>> >>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >>> >>> -- >>> Archivale catalog: >>> http://www.archivale.com >>> Mass Flow (ducted fans): >>> http://massflow.archivale.com >>> ProZ profile: >>> https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 >>> Substack account: >>> https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com >>> Pinterest: >>> https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 28 14:52:49 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 20:52:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1061992845.4587907.1687628230634@mail.yahoo.com> References: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> <1061992845.4587907.1687628230634@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1687978369909.57671.fab49f095c2b18f455e195fb949769e22618791b@spica.telekom.de> I do not know much about Karls sub. But I know a lot about my subs. And a lot of other people self build subs. Euronaut is build to class rules, to Germanischer Lloyd, Swiss Lloyds and ASME code from 1987. Is it classed ? No it is not. It is x-rayed - yes it is. Did I use certified Material for the pressure hull steel and windows ? - Yes I Do. Did I listen to other people during the construction? Yes I do - one reason I am in the Psubs group by the way.. And one reason the sub was much more expensive than calculate in the begining. Did ever a class inspector see the vessel - no. Did it have more backup systems than class required - yes it has. Would class accept my sub if I put the money for them in - no the would not - some equipment is second hand without papers like the diesel engine, the electric motor and most of th aviation gauges, intercom and so on. But do I ever carry paying guest to make money? - No never. For this purpose you can rent a classed tourist submarine. Over the years we found that some class rules are to expensive for small private build and owned sub. Technical and cost overkill. So I write a simpler form of class rules to adoped for smaller vessels (Psubs) - but not for passenger vessels. (and not for the US-market for insurance reasons) But this is not the point. If the titan vessel has class or not is not important to me. If a inpector see the vessel or not - is not important to me. For me is important: - Has he an hatch to escape a smoke or fire on the surface? - Can the boat surface fully on it own? - Has he a backup ROV on the Mothership or another submarine incase of an emergency in such heavy deeps were nobody can help him? - Is the hull proper tested? - Has it a proper navigation and comunication system? - Has the designrr listen to the white old man's with over 30-40 years expirence in these field? Or did he ignore he some or all advices? - And so on .. For me he was looking for the cheapest way to get rich people to the titanic. This 19 year old son was not killed by a submarine acciedent- he was killed by a white old man ignorance.. He was afraid about this sub and dont want to get in - what did say say to make him get in? PS : I dont care about the controller either. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-24T19:38:39+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" How do you know Idabel is built mostly to ABS rules? Because Stanley says so? As I used to tell Will Kohnen, there are only two kinds of submarines in the world; certified and non-certified. If a sub is not certified it doesn't matter what they are used for, what they carry, or how deep they dive; you do not know and cannot say with certainty whether it meets ABS standards regardless of who fabricated it. A non-certified vessel built by the best submarine builder in the world cannot be proven to be any more in compliance with ABS standards than the psubber that builds a non-certified K350 in their backyard. It is the certification that proves compliance to standards and that makes all non-certified submarines equal. I think we may all agree there can be obvious signs of an unsafe vessel, however in totality the concept of how "safe" a non-certified submarine is, is subjective. I don't have anything against Stanley and am not suggesting he be reigned in, however Sean has asked a perfectly reasonable question and I think before we start holding anyone accountable for the Titan loss we need to know whether the industry is going to endorse double standards or hold everyone to the same standard. Bringing the question back to you...take out the personalities, friendships, and acquaintances...look only at the facts...there is a non-certified submarine taking passengers-for-hire to a depth of 3000 feet in an unsupervised environment. Does PSUBS have a responsibility to petition ABS or the courts to intervene and stop the operation because it might be unsafe? Jon On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:10:28 PM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean raises a good point. There is however a big difference. Karl?s sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering guidelines. My issue is not with being classed. Classing a sub does not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. The boiler plate waiver would apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case. Hank Sent from my iPhone ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 28 14:57:36 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 20:57:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <525AA7DD-6674-4B1A-900A-6E716B22F907@yahoo.ca> References: <1061992845.4587907.1687628230634@mail.yahoo.com> <525AA7DD-6674-4B1A-900A-6E716B22F907@yahoo.ca> Message-ID: <1687978656560.55235.15921abd34d647af881276728d84e712d217ca2f@spica.telekom.de> The class rules or better common sences engineering rules gives you a way out. If you can not full fil the rules it sayed: Do something equal safe. So the simple question is: If you can not build an hatch in - what will be equal from a saftey point? The Titan answer was simple : No hatch. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-24T19:57:51+0200 Von: "hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Jon, agreed, I don?t know to what level Karl?s sub meets ABS standards. I do know from many conversations with him, that he respects the engineering rules. He has done things I would not, but I am sure that is true the other way round. If I felt his sub was unsafe like the experts did with Titan, then yes, I would suggest taking action. Have the experts sent letters to Karl, I wonder. When I say Karl is mostly to ABS rules, I am refuting the the pressure hull. The pressure hull is the issue with Titan after all. Titan seemed a nice simple design otherwise. Hank Sent from my iPhone On Jun 24, 2023, at 11:38 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: How do you know Idabel is built mostly to ABS rules? Because Stanley says so? As I used to tell Will Kohnen, there are only two kinds of submarines in the world; certified and non-certified. If a sub is not certified it doesn't matter what they are used for, what they carry, or how deep they dive; you do not know and cannot say with certainty whether it meets ABS standards regardless of who fabricated it. A non-certified vessel built by the best submarine builder in the world cannot be proven to be any more in compliance with ABS standards than the psubber that builds a non-certified K350 in their backyard. It is the certification that proves compliance to standards and that makes all non-certified submarines equal. I think we may all agree there can be obvious signs of an unsafe vessel, however in totality the concept of how "safe" a non-certified submarine is, is subjective. I don't have anything against Stanley and am not suggesting he be reigned in, however Sean has asked a perfectly reasonable question and I think before we start holding anyone accountable for the Titan loss we need to know whether the industry is going to endorse double standards or hold everyone to the same standard. Bringing the question back to you...take out the personalities, friendships, and acquaintances...look only at the facts...there is a non-certified submarine taking passengers-for-hire to a depth of 3000 feet in an unsupervised environment. Does PSUBS have a responsibility to petition ABS or the courts to intervene and stop the operation because it might be unsafe? Jon On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:10:28 PM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Sean raises a good point. There is however a big difference. Karl?s sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering guidelines. My issue is not with being classed. Classing a sub does not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. The boiler plate waiver would apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case. Hank Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 28 15:13:54 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 21:13:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABC News coverage In-Reply-To: <453452342.1213264.1687784433998@mail.yahoo.com> References: <453452342.1213264.1687784433998@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1687979634879.58746.0518ef37e54c2d0ced3c7367526b3892f170b6f8@spica.telekom.de> And how many payed guest he let dive with it ? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABC News coverage Datum: 2023-06-26T15:01:39+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Yeah, James Cameron "Mr. Expert". If I remember correctly his Deepsea Challenger is not certified. Jon On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 07:58:21 AM EDT, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: 'There is no excuse for what happened here': Director James Cameron on Titanic sub tragedy youtu.be I hope this link is useful for some. Bob Ballard (who rediscovered Titanic) and James Cameron. James Cameron couldn?t stop talking about the need to certify subs. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 28 17:14:19 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 17:14:19 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1687978369909.57671.fab49f095c2b18f455e195fb949769e22618791b@spica.telekom.de> References: <676705603.2524366.1687619016971@mail.yahoo.com> <3E16C577-AB2C-440B-8598-87DE45DE3525@yahoo.ca> <1061992845.4587907.1687628230634@mail.yahoo.com> <1687978369909.57671.fab49f095c2b18f455e195fb949769e22618791b@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: Thank Carsten ! Very , very well said ! On Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:53 PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I do not know much about Karls sub. > > > > But I know a lot about my subs. And a lot of other people self build > subs. > > > > Euronaut is build to class rules, to Germanischer Lloyd, Swiss Lloyds and > ASME code from 1987. > > Is it classed ? No it is not. It is x-rayed - yes it is. Did I use > certified Material for the pressure hull steel and windows ? - Yes I Do. > > Did I listen to other people during the construction? Yes I do - one > reason I am in the Psubs group by the way.. > > And one reason the sub was much more expensive than calculate in the > begining. > > > > Did ever a class inspector see the vessel - no. Did it have more backup > systems than class required - yes it has. > > > > Would class accept my sub if I put the money for them in - no the would > not - some equipment is second hand without > > papers like the diesel engine, the electric motor and most of th aviation > gauges, intercom and so on. > > > > But do I ever carry paying guest to make money? - No never. For this > purpose you can rent a classed tourist submarine. > > > > Over the years we found that some class rules are to expensive for small > private build and owned sub. Technical and cost overkill. > > So I write a simpler form of class rules to adoped for smaller vessels > (Psubs) - but not for passenger vessels. > > (and not for the US-market for insurance reasons) > > > > But this is not the point. If the titan vessel has class or not is not > important to me. > > If a inpector see the vessel or not - is not important to me. > > > > For me is important: > > > > - Has he an hatch to escape a smoke or fire on the surface? > > - Can the boat surface fully on it own? > > - Has he a backup ROV on the Mothership or another submarine incase of an > emergency in such heavy deeps were nobody can help him? > > - Is the hull proper tested? > > - Has it a proper navigation and comunication system? > > - Has the designrr listen to the white old man's with over 30-40 years > expirence in these field? Or did he ignore he some or all advices? > > - And so on .. > > > > For me he was looking for the cheapest way to get rich people to the > titanic. > > This 19 year old son was not killed by a submarine acciedent- he was > killed by a white old man ignorance.. > > He was afraid about this sub and dont want to get in - what did say say to > make him get in? > > > > PS : I dont care about the controller either. > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-24T19:38:39+0200 > > Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > How do you know Idabel is built mostly to ABS rules? Because Stanley says > so? > > As I used to tell Will Kohnen, there are only two kinds of submarines in > the world; certified and non-certified. If a sub is not certified it > doesn't matter what they are used for, what they carry, or how deep they > dive; you do not know and cannot say with certainty whether it meets ABS > standards regardless of who fabricated it. A non-certified vessel built by > the best submarine builder in the world cannot be proven to be any more in > compliance with ABS standards than the psubber that builds a non-certified > K350 in their backyard. It is the certification that proves compliance to > standards and that makes all non-certified submarines equal. I think we > may all agree there can be obvious signs of an unsafe vessel, however in > totality the concept of how "safe" a non-certified submarine is, is > subjective. > > I don't have anything against Stanley and am not suggesting he be reigned > in, however Sean has asked a perfectly reasonable question and I think > before we start holding anyone accountable for the Titan loss we need to > know whether the industry is going to endorse double standards or hold > everyone to the same standard. > > Bringing the question back to you...take out the personalities, > friendships, and acquaintances...look only at the facts...there is a > non-certified submarine taking passengers-for-hire to a depth of 3000 feet > in an unsupervised environment. Does PSUBS have a responsibility to > petition ABS or the courts to intervene and stop the operation because it > might be unsafe? > > Jon > > > On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:10:28 PM EDT, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Sean raises a good point. There is however a big difference. Karl?s sub > is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering > guidelines. My issue is not with being classed. Classing a sub does not > make it safer, it just proves it is safe. The boiler plate waiver would > apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case. > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 28 17:38:51 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 15:38:51 -0600 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Introducing myself, and a laundry list of questions References: <042c01d9aa08$ef329470$cd97bd50$.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <042c01d9aa08$ef329470$cd97bd50$@yahoo.com> Hello, all, First things first, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Mikael, a college student studying mechanical engineering. I've had an interest in building my own submarine for about 3 years now, after building small ROVs with my robotics team and competing in the MATE championship. The sub I want to build is a 1atm submarine that can carry 1-2 people and dive to about 150-200ft. The main purpose of this would be an engineering challenge to myself. 1. What general advice would you give me to get started? 2. How do I do this safely? I think I need to address the elephant in the room of the recent Titan tragedy - how do I avoid having that happen to me? There's the obvious, design with plenty of safety factor, build in redundancy to life support and surfacing systems, etc. What else do I need to be aware of? In particular, what are the less obvious/more obscure issues that might crop up? 3. What skills do I need to pick up before embarking on this project? I have a little bit of experience with machining, I'd need to get better to make parts I'd trust with my life. I can only assume I'd need to learn to weld. Are other skills like SCUBA necessary? Do I need to learn HAM radio for any communications devices? 4. Ballpark, how much would this cost to build? To operate? What costs are involved in the process that I likely wouldn't expect? 5. How do you source/fabricate your pressure hulls? I've heard of people using propane tanks, but also that doing so isn't really the recommended strategy, because detailed information on them is scarce. I have no idea how else you'd fabricate something like that on a hobbyist budget. 6. What books/reference material should I pick up? So far I've picked up Manned Submersibles, Concepts in Submarine Design, as well as the ABS rulebook and the Design, Construction, and Operating Guidelines from the PSUBS website. 7. What other questions should I be asking? Thank you very much for any help you can provide! I know that's a lot of questions. - Mikael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 28 18:03:20 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 22:03:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Introducing myself, and a laundry list of questions In-Reply-To: <042c01d9aa08$ef329470$cd97bd50$@yahoo.com> References: <042c01d9aa08$ef329470$cd97bd50$.ref@yahoo.com> <042c01d9aa08$ef329470$cd97bd50$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <567721485.79516.1687989800199@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Mikael, You can purchase submarine plans from PSUBS and that is the quickest way to get started.? You will need to invest in many tools and have a location where you can use those tools including stick and/or tig welder, drill press, lathe, grinders, sanders, and much more.? To weld and machine a "safe" vessel you will need more than just beginner experience with the tools, particularly welding the pressure hull.? Anything you can't do yourself safely you will need to contract a service to perform for you. SCUBA certification is strongly recommended.? None of the communications we use require special training or licenses. All materials used for the submarine are expensive and I think you would spend upwards of $50-60k for the finished project. Operating costs are similar to a surface boat however you will need a good trailer as well.? Weighing in at 3-5000 pounds, you won't be pulling it with a Tesla coupe so expect to purchase a four-wheel drive full size truck to tow/launch/retrieve the submarine. Propane tanks are not appropriate.? The issue is not a scarcity of information but the fact they are not fabricated from the proper steel nor are they intended to be used for external pressure. You are in the correct place to ask questions so just keep asking whatever comes to mind and learn as much as you can BEFORE spending any money. Jon On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 05:40:45 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello, all, ? First things first, I?d like to introduce myself. I?m Mikael, a college student studying mechanical engineering. I?ve had an interest in building my own submarine for about 3 years now, after building small ROVs with my robotics team and competing in the MATE championship. ? The sub I want to build is a 1atm submarine that can carry 1-2 people and dive to about 150-200ft. The main purpose of this would be an engineering challenge to myself. - What general advice would you give me to get started? - How do I do this safely? I think I need to address the elephant in the room of the recent Titan tragedy ? how do I avoid having that happen to me? There?s the obvious, design with plenty of safety factor, build in redundancy to life support and surfacing systems, etc. What else do I need to be aware of? In particular, what are the less obvious/more obscure issues that might crop up? - What skills do I need to pick up before embarking on this project? I have a little bit of experience with machining, I?d need to get better to make parts I?d trust with my life. I can only assume I?d need to learn to weld. Are other skills like SCUBA necessary? Do I need to learn HAM radio for any communications devices? - Ballpark, how much would this cost to build? To operate? What costs are involved in the process that I likely wouldn?t expect? - How do you source/fabricate your pressure hulls? I?ve heard of people using propane tanks, but also that doing so isn?t really the recommended strategy, because detailed information on them is scarce. I have no idea how else you?d fabricate something like that on a hobbyist budget. - What books/reference material should I pick up? So far I?ve picked up Manned Submersibles, Concepts in Submarine Design, as well as the ABS rulebook and the Design, Construction, and Operating Guidelines from the PSUBS website. - What other questions should I be asking? ? Thank you very much for any help you can provide! I know that?s a lot of questions. ? - Mikael _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 28 18:14:39 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alan James via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 22:14:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Introducing myself, and a laundry list of questions In-Reply-To: <042c01d9aa08$ef329470$cd97bd50$@yahoo.com> References: <042c01d9aa08$ef329470$cd97bd50$.ref@yahoo.com> <042c01d9aa08$ef329470$cd97bd50$@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <206494396.85109.1687990479921@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Mikael,welcome along to the group.You have made a good start with the reading material you have.One of the items on the sub, the acrylic dome, can be expensive & hard to come by. It gives a much better viewing experience than a cheaper flat view port. I would?have a good look at that at some stage.You can buy plans for a K250 or K350 submersible. Both 2 person & capable of 250ft & 350ft operating depth.Be aware that the plans are out of date & you would need to rely on the group for up to date options.There is a site "Guernsey submarine" with hundreds of pictures documenting a K350 build. Well worth looking at to see what you are getting in to.If you dont have a conning tower it is difficult to get in and out of the sub with a wave running.?You need a substantial trailer & often an extension bar to be able to float the sub off the trailer. I heard someone say they could only launch off 1 in 5 boat ramps; they tend to end before the sub floats off.An option if you are shallow diving is to build an ambient sub. I did this as a prelude to a 1atm sub to test my design. An ambient sub is pressurized on the inside to the same pressure as the water at the depth you are at. So you dont need a strong hull or acrylic dome. It is quite cheap and relatively easy to make but a lot more dangerous than a 1atm. You would need to do a scuba course, as? you are sitting dry but in a bubble of compressed air and subject to the same decompression laws as divers. Also there is limited life support time compared with a 1atm & you would need to get out & head for the surface if you were entrapped etc. The other down side with an ambient is that all your electronic inside the hull are under pressure, so items like large capacitors need protecting.I can give you more information if you are interested. And there will be some pictures of my build on the psub website under members projects. BTW I controlled it with a PS2 controller so beat Stockton to that one.AlanRegards?? Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 at 9:40 am, via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Hello, all, ? First things first, I?d like to introduce myself. I?m Mikael, a college student studying mechanical engineering. I?ve had an interest in building my own submarine for about 3 years now, after building small ROVs with my robotics team and competing in the MATE championship. ? The sub I want to build is a 1atm submarine that can carry 1-2 people and dive to about 150-200ft. The main purpose of this would be an engineering challenge to myself. - What general advice would you give me to get started? - How do I do this safely? I think I need to address the elephant in the room of the recent Titan tragedy ? how do I avoid having that happen to me? There?s the obvious, design with plenty of safety factor, build in redundancy to life support and surfacing systems, etc. What else do I need to be aware of? In particular, what are the less obvious/more obscure issues that might crop up? - What skills do I need to pick up before embarking on this project? I have a little bit of experience with machining, I?d need to get better to make parts I?d trust with my life. I can only assume I?d need to learn to weld. Are other skills like SCUBA necessary? Do I need to learn HAM radio for any communications devices? - Ballpark, how much would this cost to build? To operate? What costs are involved in the process that I likely wouldn?t expect? - How do you source/fabricate your pressure hulls? I?ve heard of people using propane tanks, but also that doing so isn?t really the recommended strategy, because detailed information on them is scarce. I have no idea how else you?d fabricate something like that on a hobbyist budget. - What books/reference material should I pick up? So far I?ve picked up Manned Submersibles, Concepts in Submarine Design, as well as the ABS rulebook and the Design, Construction, and Operating Guidelines from the PSUBS website. - What other questions should I be asking? ? Thank you very much for any help you can provide! I know that?s a lot of questions. ? - Mikael _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 28 18:38:36 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 10:38:36 +1200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> I have been on Carstens Sub and it was very responsible and very impressive. The biggest thing for me was his procedures, attention to manuals & inspector rating for Swiss Lloyds. I too do not have certification but like others I have done the following: Designed & manufactured pressure vessels to ASME VIII Enlisted ABS and GL to understand the certification process. Submitted my design to FEA expert George Laird of Predictive Engineering. Bought Lloyds certified window domes Had SGS monitor the PVHO build and pressure test. Used certified materials Employed ASME 9 weldors Studied & complied with ASME PVHO Studied Stachiws, bought plans of Kittredge sub, Have full 3D Cad drawings in addition to 2D Cad drawings Monitored Psubs.org Listened to Peers through Psubs, Cliff Redus, Phil Nuyten, Karl Stanley, Vance Bradley, etc Restored and dived a submersible "Comsub" Used approved Electrical through hull penetrators. Used 2nd hand certified u/w Comms. Utilised manual backup systems for getting to the surface. Have a hull pressure test vessel and Test pool similar to Hanks. Many reasons I would not get certification apart from cost. Utilised industrial but uncertified valves. Utilised LiFePO4 batteries in the PVHO Utilised uncertified electric motors and propulsion systems. So I would say that there should be a certification for the hull, Windows, Hatch that recognises a responsible build. The Electrical systems, manuals, procedures, etc which are also important are where the majority of cost for certification is. I would love to go through certification but there needs to be a class for a responsible build. The avenue is there with Swiss Lloyds through Carsten Stanfuss. IMHO This needs to be promoted through P-subs Cheers, Hugh Fulton. www.q-subs.com -----Original Message----- From: Personal_Submersibles On Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2023 9:40 AM To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 118, Issue 53 Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to personal_submersibles at psubs.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org You can reach the person managing the list at personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: ABC News coverage (MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) 2. Re: Titan submersible missing at Titanic site (Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles) 3. Introducing myself, and a laundry list of questions (via Personal_Submersibles) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 21:13:54 +0200 (CEST) From: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABC News coverage Message-ID: <1687979634879.58746.0518ef37e54c2d0ced3c7367526b3892f170b6f8 at spica.telekom. de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" And how many payed guest he let dive with it ? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] ABC News coverage Datum: 2023-06-26T15:01:39+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Yeah, James Cameron "Mr. Expert". If I remember correctly his Deepsea Challenger is not certified. Jon On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 07:58:21 AM EDT, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote: 'There is no excuse for what happened here': Director James Cameron on Titanic sub tragedy youtu.be I hope this link is useful for some. Bob Ballard (who rediscovered Titanic) and James Cameron. James Cameron couldn?t stop talking about the need to certify subs. _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 17:14:19 -0400 From: Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Thank Carsten ! Very , very well said ! On Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:53 PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I do not know much about Karls sub. > > > > But I know a lot about my subs. And a lot of other people self build > subs. > > > > Euronaut is build to class rules, to Germanischer Lloyd, Swiss Lloyds > and ASME code from 1987. > > Is it classed ? No it is not. It is x-rayed - yes it is. Did I use > certified Material for the pressure hull steel and windows ? - Yes I Do. > > Did I listen to other people during the construction? Yes I do - one > reason I am in the Psubs group by the way.. > > And one reason the sub was much more expensive than calculate in the > begining. > > > > Did ever a class inspector see the vessel - no. Did it have more > backup systems than class required - yes it has. > > > > Would class accept my sub if I put the money for them in - no the > would not - some equipment is second hand without > > papers like the diesel engine, the electric motor and most of th > aviation gauges, intercom and so on. > > > > But do I ever carry paying guest to make money? - No never. For this > purpose you can rent a classed tourist submarine. > > > > Over the years we found that some class rules are to expensive for > small private build and owned sub. Technical and cost overkill. > > So I write a simpler form of class rules to adoped for smaller vessels > (Psubs) - but not for passenger vessels. > > (and not for the US-market for insurance reasons) > > > > But this is not the point. If the titan vessel has class or not is not > important to me. > > If a inpector see the vessel or not - is not important to me. > > > > For me is important: > > > > - Has he an hatch to escape a smoke or fire on the surface? > > - Can the boat surface fully on it own? > > - Has he a backup ROV on the Mothership or another submarine incase of > an emergency in such heavy deeps were nobody can help him? > > - Is the hull proper tested? > > - Has it a proper navigation and comunication system? > > - Has the designrr listen to the white old man's with over 30-40 years > expirence in these field? Or did he ignore he some or all advices? > > - And so on .. > > > > For me he was looking for the cheapest way to get rich people to the > titanic. > > This 19 year old son was not killed by a submarine acciedent- he was > killed by a white old man ignorance.. > > He was afraid about this sub and dont want to get in - what did say > say to make him get in? > > > > PS : I dont care about the controller either. > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-24T19:38:39+0200 > > Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > How do you know Idabel is built mostly to ABS rules? Because Stanley > says so? > > As I used to tell Will Kohnen, there are only two kinds of submarines > in the world; certified and non-certified. If a sub is not certified > it doesn't matter what they are used for, what they carry, or how deep > they dive; you do not know and cannot say with certainty whether it > meets ABS standards regardless of who fabricated it. A non-certified > vessel built by the best submarine builder in the world cannot be > proven to be any more in compliance with ABS standards than the > psubber that builds a non-certified > K350 in their backyard. It is the certification that proves > compliance to standards and that makes all non-certified submarines > equal. I think we may all agree there can be obvious signs of an > unsafe vessel, however in totality the concept of how "safe" a > non-certified submarine is, is subjective. > > I don't have anything against Stanley and am not suggesting he be > reigned in, however Sean has asked a perfectly reasonable question and > I think before we start holding anyone accountable for the Titan loss > we need to know whether the industry is going to endorse double > standards or hold everyone to the same standard. > > Bringing the question back to you...take out the personalities, > friendships, and acquaintances...look only at the facts...there is a > non-certified submarine taking passengers-for-hire to a depth of 3000 > feet in an unsupervised environment. Does PSUBS have a responsibility > to petition ABS or the courts to intervene and stop the operation > because it might be unsafe? > > Jon > > > On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:10:28 PM EDT, hank pronk via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Sean raises a good point. There is however a big difference. Karl?s > sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering > guidelines. My issue is not with being classed. Classing a sub does > not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. The boiler plate waiver > would apply and be sufficient in Karl?s case. > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 15:38:51 -0600 From: via Personal_Submersibles To: Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Introducing myself, and a laundry list of questions Message-ID: <042c01d9aa08$ef329470$cd97bd50$@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, all, First things first, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Mikael, a college student studying mechanical engineering. I've had an interest in building my own submarine for about 3 years now, after building small ROVs with my robotics team and competing in the MATE championship. The sub I want to build is a 1atm submarine that can carry 1-2 people and dive to about 150-200ft. The main purpose of this would be an engineering challenge to myself. 1. What general advice would you give me to get started? 2. How do I do this safely? I think I need to address the elephant in the room of the recent Titan tragedy - how do I avoid having that happen to me? There's the obvious, design with plenty of safety factor, build in redundancy to life support and surfacing systems, etc. What else do I need to be aware of? In particular, what are the less obvious/more obscure issues that might crop up? 3. What skills do I need to pick up before embarking on this project? I have a little bit of experience with machining, I'd need to get better to make parts I'd trust with my life. I can only assume I'd need to learn to weld. Are other skills like SCUBA necessary? Do I need to learn HAM radio for any communications devices? 4. Ballpark, how much would this cost to build? To operate? What costs are involved in the process that I likely wouldn't expect? 5. How do you source/fabricate your pressure hulls? I've heard of people using propane tanks, but also that doing so isn't really the recommended strategy, because detailed information on them is scarce. I have no idea how else you'd fabricate something like that on a hobbyist budget. 6. What books/reference material should I pick up? So far I've picked up Manned Submersibles, Concepts in Submarine Design, as well as the ABS rulebook and the Design, Construction, and Operating Guidelines from the PSUBS website. 7. What other questions should I be asking? Thank you very much for any help you can provide! I know that's a lot of questions. - Mikael -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles ------------------------------ End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 118, Issue 53 ****************************************************** From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 28 19:18:15 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 23:18:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in Canada | | | | | | | | | | | Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in Canada | | | -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 28 20:03:49 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 17:03:49 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Snoopy NOT for sale! In-Reply-To: References: <915364246.3032687.1687809853968@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Douglas, look forward to to seeing you and Snoopy at the next psubs event. David On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 2:12 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Douglas, that is a much better idea > Hank > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 26, 2023, at 2:04 PM, via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > ? > Great news, Doug. > Vance > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > Sent: Mon, Jun 26, 2023 3:18 pm > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Snoopy NOT for sale! > > That is super good news!!! > > Best, > Alec > > On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 2:02?PM Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > > Group: late last year I shared an email stating that I wanted to sell > Snoopster. In the wake of this Titan disaster I've decided not to sell her. > I'll have her back in the water soon. ~ Douglas > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Wed Jun 28 20:34:38 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2023 20:34:38 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Introducing myself, and a laundry list of questions In-Reply-To: <206494396.85109.1687990479921@mail.yahoo.com> References: <042c01d9aa08$ef329470$cd97bd50$.ref@yahoo.com> <042c01d9aa08$ef329470$cd97bd50$@yahoo.com> <206494396.85109.1687990479921@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Mikael, Welcome! Great start with your reading list, and especially with your field of study. I realize that being in college, most likely you may not be at the stage of life in which you can actually build a sub just yet (though who knows, Karl Stanley started when he was about 14.) If the budget, skills, facilities, etc. seem overwhelming, there is still an awful lot you can do now that will speed things up when the time is right. To begin with, I'd make a point of tagging along at PSUBS events so you can actually see subs in operation and maybe go for a dive. Pick up skills that you know you'll need. In fact, you might have facilities at university for machining and welding, that might be harder to come by after you've graduated. You can also invest time developing a detailed CAD design, which will speed things up later, and generate the documentation needed for subcontracting parts you aren't comfortable making yourself. Even if you design your own sub, I'd suggest starting with a set of Kittredge plans. It's a proven design, and works perfectly as is even if you could optionally make incremental improvements. When you do eventually start building, you can begin with lots of smaller yet time-consuming parts (e.g. lights, scrubbers) that will go into the eventual sub. That would let you get through a lot of the labor without yet having big expenditures or facilities. People here are always willing to help, whether with ideas or by peer review. Best, Alec On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 6:15?PM Alan James via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Hello Mikael, > welcome along to the group. > You have made a good start with the reading material you have. > One of the items on the sub, the acrylic dome, can be expensive & hard to > come by. It gives a much better viewing experience than a cheaper flat view > port. I would > have a good look at that at some stage. > You can buy plans for a K250 or K350 submersible. Both 2 person & capable > of 250ft & 350ft operating depth. > Be aware that the plans are out of date & you would need to rely on the > group for up to date options. > There is a site "Guernsey submarine" with hundreds of pictures documenting > a K350 build. Well worth looking at to see what you are getting in to. > If you dont have a conning tower it is difficult to get in and out of the > sub with a wave running. > You need a substantial trailer & often an extension bar to be able to > float the sub off the trailer. I heard someone say they could only launch > off 1 in 5 boat ramps; they tend to end before the sub floats off. > An option if you are shallow diving is to build an ambient sub. I did this > as a prelude to a 1atm sub to test my design. An ambient sub is pressurized > on the inside to the same pressure as the water at the depth you are at. So > you dont need a strong hull or acrylic dome. It is quite cheap and > relatively easy to make but a lot more dangerous than a 1atm. You would > need to do a scuba course, as you are sitting dry but in a bubble of > compressed air and subject to the same decompression laws as divers. Also > there is limited life support time compared with a 1atm & you would need to > get out & head for the surface if you were entrapped etc. The other down > side with an ambient is that all your electronic inside the hull are under > pressure, so items like large capacitors need protecting. > I can give you more information if you are interested. And there will be > some pictures of my build on the psub website under members projects. BTW I > controlled it with a PS2 controller so beat Stockton to that one. > Alan > Regards > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > > On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 at 9:40 am, via Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > Hello, all, > > > > First things first, I?d like to introduce myself. I?m Mikael, a college > student studying mechanical engineering. I?ve had an interest in building > my own submarine for about 3 years now, after building small ROVs with my > robotics team and competing in the MATE championship. > > > > The sub I want to build is a 1atm submarine that can carry 1-2 people and > dive to about 150-200ft. The main purpose of this would be an engineering > challenge to myself. > > 1. What general advice would you give me to get started? > 2. How do I do this safely? I think I need to address the elephant in > the room of the recent Titan tragedy ? how do I avoid having that happen to > me? There?s the obvious, design with plenty of safety factor, build in > redundancy to life support and surfacing systems, etc. What else do I need > to be aware of? In particular, what are the less obvious/more obscure > issues that might crop up? > 3. What skills do I need to pick up before embarking on this project? > I have a little bit of experience with machining, I?d need to get better to > make parts I?d trust with my life. I can only assume I?d need to learn to > weld. Are other skills like SCUBA necessary? Do I need to learn HAM radio > for any communications devices? > 4. Ballpark, how much would this cost to build? To operate? What costs > are involved in the process that I likely wouldn?t expect? > 5. How do you source/fabricate your pressure hulls? I?ve heard of > people using propane tanks, but also that doing so isn?t really the > recommended strategy, because detailed information on them is scarce. I > have no idea how else you?d fabricate something like that on a hobbyist > budget. > 6. What books/reference material should I pick up? So far I?ve picked > up Manned Submersibles, Concepts in Submarine Design, as well as the ABS > rulebook and the Design, Construction, and Operating Guidelines from the > PSUBS website. > 7. What other questions should I be asking? > > > > Thank you very much for any help you can provide! I know that?s a lot of > questions. > > > > - Mikael > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 29 11:26:43 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 15:26:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> Interesting that at 1:01 the viewport is obviously not in place.? I would have thought that for this kind of post accident analysis they would leave everything intact and as found.? I have to wonder if the viewport was removed to allow the crane strap to get a firm grip on the tank head or if that was just a convenience because the viewport blew out. Jon On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 07:19:51 PM EDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in Canada | | | | | | | | | | | Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in Canada | | | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 29 11:45:45 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 23:45:45 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2aee2d5f-faa9-8151-52be-e3a2860312fe@archivale.com> I'm curious about the end cap being totally intact (except for the missing viewport). If I remember the other video, the entire end cap is bolted onto the pressure hull? cylinder after the passengers have boarded. End cap titanium, pressure hull laminated carbon fiber reinforced composite. I'm thinking of differences in response to temperature changes and varying external pressure. Could this have been a shear failure separating the entire front assembly from the rest of the hull? I remember an earlier message on this board mentioning scary sounds from the acoustic sensors - strain at the bolted joint? It would be interesting to see what is left of the bolts if they are ever recovered. Marc de Piolenc On 6/29/2023 11:26 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Interesting that at 1:01 the viewport is obviously not in place.? I > would have thought that for this kind of post accident analysis they > would leave everything intact and as found.? I have to wonder if the > viewport was removed to allow the crane strap to get a firm grip on > the tank head or if that was just a convenience because the viewport > blew out. > > Jon > > > > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 07:19:51 PM EDT, Jon Wallace via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in > Canada > > > > > > > > Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in > Canada > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 29 11:47:46 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 17:47:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T17:27:48+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" , "personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org" Interesting that at 1:01 the viewport is obviously not in place. I would have thought that for this kind of post accident analysis they would leave everything intact and as found. I have to wonder if the viewport was removed to allow the crane strap to get a firm grip on the tank head or if that was just a convenience because the viewport blew out. Jon On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 07:19:51 PM EDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in Canada Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in Canada _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 29 13:09:29 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (vbra676539@aol.com via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 17:09:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1903914026.236157.1688058569147@mail.yahoo.com> Probably blown out during the collapse.Vance On Thursday, June 29, 2023, 11:27:06 AM EDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Interesting that at 1:01 the viewport is obviously not in place.? I would have thought that for this kind of post accident analysis they would leave everything intact and as found.? I have to wonder if the viewport was removed to allow the crane strap to get a firm grip on the tank head or if that was just a convenience because the viewport blew out. Jon On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 07:19:51 PM EDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in Canada | | | | | | | | | | | Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in Canada | | | _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 29 15:10:51 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 19:10:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place.? See attached photo. Jon On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction.? Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside.? ? All titan parts in the video seems undamaged.? ? Carsten ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: titan-1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 74857 bytes Desc: not available URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 29 15:14:52 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 19:14:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <2aee2d5f-faa9-8151-52be-e3a2860312fe@archivale.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <2aee2d5f-faa9-8151-52be-e3a2860312fe@archivale.com> Message-ID: <700137912.517641.1688066092200@mail.yahoo.com> Marc, The head was bolted to a titanium transition ring that was bonded to the carbon fiber cylinder.? There's a video out there somewhere that shows the transition ring being glued to the hull. Jon On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:47:48 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I'm curious about the end cap being totally intact (except for the missing viewport). If I remember the other video, the entire end cap is bolted onto the pressure hull? cylinder after the passengers have boarded. End cap titanium, pressure hull laminated carbon fiber reinforced composite. I'm thinking of differences in response to temperature changes and varying external pressure. Could this have been a shear failure separating the entire front assembly from the rest of the hull? I remember an earlier message on this board mentioning scary sounds from the acoustic sensors - strain at the bolted joint? It would be interesting to see what is left of the bolts if they are ever recovered. Marc de Piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Thu Jun 29 15:38:47 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2023 19:38:47 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <7g2v57y9DQLcE-AhhqS2yHHDSQg3N84zPUaRvv4Cj-uaYd2n4iI5ZnUve7HyAlvP8bWHGs7JSEDOckfvlKqmpZQ4O5okJgiAtG7v-wn-3Q0=@protonmail.com> I was just going to mention that. To say nothing of the appropriateness of FRC in submerged cyclic service generally, the composite hull on Titan was wound in the principal hoop stress direction only. A more appropriate layup would have incorporated longitudinal and/or +/- 45? layers as well. Unless you are floating the cylinder between mechanically constrained end seals (i.e. with the end caps connected via tie rods that carry the compressive stress), you will never have pure hoop stress in the cylinder wall. I'm less sold on longitudinal collapse as the failure mode, as opposed to overall buckling. FRCs have their own specific failure modes which can include delamination, loss of bond between matrix and fiber, shear of the fiber, matrix creep, and certain dislocation effects. Though a longitudinal instability or initial localized failure of the hull due to longitudinal stress could easily have precipitated an overall buckling event, I expect that the general deformation mode will be determined to have been radial collapse vs an accordion-type buckle. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 29, 2023, 09:47, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. > > Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. > > All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-29T17:27:48+0200 > > Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" , "personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org" > > Interesting that at 1:01 the viewport is obviously not in place. I would have thought that for this kind of post accident analysis they would leave everything intact and as found. I have to wonder if the viewport was removed to allow the crane strap to get a firm grip on the tank head or if that was just a convenience because the viewport blew out. > > Jon > > On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 07:19:51 PM EDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > [Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in Canada](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=458KFQXJ_Zs) > > Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in Canada > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 02:54:08 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 14:54:08 +0800 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <700137912.517641.1688066092200@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <2aee2d5f-faa9-8151-52be-e3a2860312fe@archivale.com> <700137912.517641.1688066092200@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That makes better sense. I was imagining tapped bushings drilled and glued directly into the hull structure. Marc On 6/30/2023 3:14 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > Marc, > > The head was bolted to a titanium transition ring that was bonded to > the carbon fiber cylinder.? There's a video out there somewhere that > shows the transition ring being glued to the hull. > > Jon > > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:47:48 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I'm curious about the end cap being totally intact (except for the > missing viewport). If I remember the other video, the entire end cap > is bolted onto the pressure hull? cylinder after the passengers have > boarded. End cap titanium, pressure hull laminated carbon fiber > reinforced composite. I'm thinking of differences in response to > temperature changes and varying external pressure. Could this have > been a shear failure separating the entire front assembly from the > rest of the hull? I remember an earlier message on this board > mentioning scary sounds from the acoustic sensors - strain at the > bolted joint? It would be interesting to see what is left of the bolts > if they are ever recovered. > > Marc de Piolenc > > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -- Archivale catalog:http://www.archivale.com Mass Flow (ducted fans):http://massflow.archivale.com ProZ profile:https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 Substack account:https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com Pinterest:https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 09:29:38 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 15:29:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. Jon On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. Carsten ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 09:40:34 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 15:40:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1688132434369.171193.e6be0ad0ee44c02c7e8452ba23045d939022b008@spica.telekom.de> I look at the video again and it seems all bolts of the window are gone - and all bolts one the frontcap are also gone. I am 100 % sure that was not the salvage crew. Seems both blow out at the same time. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T17:27:48+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org" , "personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org" Interesting that at 1:01 the viewport is obviously not in place. I would have thought that for this kind of post accident analysis they would leave everything intact and as found. I have to wonder if the viewport was removed to allow the crane strap to get a firm grip on the tank head or if that was just a convenience because the viewport blew out. Jon On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 07:19:51 PM EDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in Canada Raw video: Wreckage from implosion of Titanic-bound sub arrives in Canada _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 10:02:23 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 16:02:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures: Diameter hull 1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. Jon On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. Carsten ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 10:10:39 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 16:10:39 +0200 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: Hello Carsten, for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x). regards Antoine On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm > > I come to the following rough figures: > > > > Diameter hull 1600 mm > > Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm > > Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm > > (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as > entrance..) > > > > > > Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic > > - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. > > > > Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 > > Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the > retaining ring in place. See attached photo. > > > Jon > > > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that > the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. > > Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in > another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. > > > > All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 11:05:23 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 15:05:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1457183317.886229.1688137523386@mail.yahoo.com> According to an article I found the viewport diameter was 53cm which I believe was the outside dimension.? Based upon a video I found with Rush putting his hand up to the inside viewport I would estimate the inside diameter closer to 300mm.? The seat appears conical however the viewport had a convex outside surface.? Hard to say if that means it was just a regular spherical segment with conical seats or a conical viewport with a convex exterior surface. https://www.insider.com/titan-missing-submersible-photos-interior-exterior-dock-launch-2023-6#the-titans-viewport-measured-21-inches-according-to-oceangate-thats-the-biggest-viewport-of-any-deep-diving-submersible-6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkytJa0ghc? (See 0:13 to 0:29) Jon On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 10:07:33 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures:? ? Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?700 mm Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ? 466 mm? (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) ? ? Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight.? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep.? ? Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place.? See attached photo.??Jon???On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction.? Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside.? ? All titan parts in the video seems undamaged.? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 11:58:51 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 15:58:51 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1457183317.886229.1688137523386@mail.yahoo.com> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> <1457183317.886229.1688137523386@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That will be a spherical sector window with conical bearing surface. You can kind of see the inside surface abberation if you look closely at the window in your video (0:12 - 0:18). Certainly, a window with spherical outer face and flat inner face is not a standard geometry in any reference. The spherical sector window with conical face is a superior geometry because all points of the window are exclusively in compression. This is why PVHO-1 gives such windows a 20 year base service life, as opposed to 10 years for square edge or flanged. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 30, 2023, 09:05, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > According to an article I found the viewport diameter was 53cm which I believe was the outside dimension. Based upon a video I found with Rush putting his hand up to the inside viewport I would estimate the inside diameter closer to 300mm. The seat appears conical however the viewport had a convex outside surface. Hard to say if that means it was just a regular spherical segment with conical seats or a conical viewport with a convex exterior surface. > > https://www.insider.com/titan-missing-submersible-photos-interior-exterior-dock-launch-2023-6#the-titans-viewport-measured-21-inches-according-to-oceangate-thats-the-biggest-viewport-of-any-deep-diving-submersible-6 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkytJa0ghc (See 0:13 to 0:29) > > Jon > > On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 10:07:33 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm > > I come to the following rough figures: > > Diameter hull 1600 mm > > Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm > > Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm > > (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) > > Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic > > - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. > > Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? > > Carsten > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 > > Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" > > The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. > > Jon > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. > > Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. > > All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. > > Carsten > > ? > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 13:24:58 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 13:24:58 -0400 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My understanding from before the fatal incident is that the viewport is a non-standard, novel geometry not described in PVHO. I am unsure exactly what the geometry is, but I believe is curved on the outside but flat on the inside. New geometries can be used under PVHO if multiple copies are destructively tested. My office is involved with the formal accident investigation, so I'm being deliberate with what I say. But from the evidence I have seen, I do not believe the viewport was the cause of the accident. River J Dolfi Rdolfi7 at gmail.com 412-997-2526 On Fri, Jun 30, 2023, 11:06 via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: > Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to > personal_submersibles at psubs.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > (Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles) > 2. Re: Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 16:10:39 +0200 > From: Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > Message-ID: > V8ggDC3mcPQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hello Carsten, > > for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for > 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term > critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine > using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find > in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I > believe it is 4x). > > regards > Antoine > > On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm > > > > I come to the following rough figures: > > > > > > > > Diameter hull 1600 mm > > > > Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm > > > > Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm > > > > (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as > > entrance..) > > > > > > > > > > > > Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic > > > > - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. > > > > > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > > > Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 > > > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. > > > > > > > > Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? > > > > > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > > > Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 > > > > Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the > > retaining ring in place. See attached photo. > > > > > > Jon > > > > > > > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via > > Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > > > > > > I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine > that > > the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. > > > > Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw > in > > another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. > > > > > > > > All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. > > > > > > > > Carsten > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ? > > _______________________________________________ > > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20230630/ba5ca770/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 15:05:23 +0000 (UTC) > From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles > > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion > > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > Message-ID: <1457183317.886229.1688137523386 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > According to an article I found the viewport diameter was 53cm which I > believe was the outside dimension.? Based upon a video I found with Rush > putting his hand up to the inside viewport I would estimate the inside > diameter closer to 300mm.? The seat appears conical however the viewport > had a convex outside surface.? Hard to say if that means it was just a > regular spherical segment with conical seats or a conical viewport with a > convex exterior surface. > > https://www.insider.com/titan-missing-submersible-photos-interior-exterior-dock-launch-2023-6#the-titans-viewport-measured-21-inches-according-to-oceangate-thats-the-biggest-viewport-of-any-deep-diving-submersible-6 > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkytJa0ghc? (See 0:13 to 0:29) > > > Jon > > > On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 10:07:33 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de > via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > > I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm > > I come to the following rough figures:? > > ? > > Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm > > Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?700 mm > > Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ? 466 mm? > > (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as > entrance..) > > ? > > ? > > Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic > > - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight.? > > ? > > Carsten > > ? > > ? > > ? > > ? > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 > > Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > ? > > ? > > ? > > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep.? > > ? > > Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? > > ? > > Carsten > > ? > > ? > > ? > > -----Original-Nachricht----- > > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site > > Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 > > Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > > ? > > ? > > ? > ?The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the > retaining ring in place.? See attached photo.??Jon???On Thursday, June 29, > 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:?? > I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that > the boat imploded in longitudinal direction.? > > Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in > another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside.? > > ? > > All titan parts in the video seems undamaged.? > > ? > > Carsten > > ? > > ? > > ? > > ? > ?_______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20230630/6488de8d/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 118, Issue 61 > ****************************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 14:30:03 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 18:30:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> <1457183317.886229.1688137523386@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <509422964.998205.1688149803769@mail.yahoo.com> Sean, My understanding was similar to River's that the viewport was a non-standard PVHO design.? It sort of looked to me like a solid piece, convex on exterior and flat on interior but I can't really tell from online photos alone. A properly certified spherical segment or even flat conical was not a huge engineering obstacle to overcome for Titanic's depth.? Makes you wonder why they didn't go that route, assuming they didn't. Jon On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 12:02:28 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That will be a spherical sector window with conical bearing surface. You can kind of see the inside surface abberation if you look closely at the window in your video (0:12 - 0:18). Certainly, a window with spherical outer face and flat inner face is not a standard geometry in any reference. The spherical sector window with conical face is a superior geometry because all points of the window are exclusively in compression. This is why PVHO-1 gives such windows a 20 year base service life, as opposed to 10 years for square edge or flanged. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 30, 2023, 09:05, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: According to an article I found the viewport diameter was 53cm which I believe was the outside dimension.? Based upon a video I found with Rush putting his hand up to the inside viewport I would estimate the inside diameter closer to 300mm.? The seat appears conical however the viewport had a convex outside surface.? Hard to say if that means it was just a regular spherical segment with conical seats or a conical viewport with a convex exterior surface. https://www.insider.com/titan-missing-submersible-photos-interior-exterior-dock-launch-2023-6#the-titans-viewport-measured-21-inches-according-to-oceangate-thats-the-biggest-viewport-of-any-deep-diving-submersible-6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkytJa0ghc? (See 0:13 to 0:29) Jon On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 10:07:33 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures:? ? Diameter hull? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside? ? ? ? ?700 mm Diameter front porthole inside? ? ? ? ? ? 466 mm? (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) ? ? Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight.? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep.? ? Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? ? Carsten ? ? ? -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" ? ? ? ?The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place.? See attached photo.??Jon???On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote:?? I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction.? Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside.? ? All titan parts in the video seems undamaged.? ? Carsten ? ? ? ? ?_______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 15:05:40 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 19:05:40 +0000 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <509422964.998205.1688149803769@mail.yahoo.com> References: <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> <1457183317.886229.1688137523386@mail.yahoo.com> <509422964.998205.1688149803769@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <94hO3CwfHs3ISBJW-DQGfj0USM_yVy6LGf8GXMfOE9GRntjsleOdFQStiVInjUl_9gBBKHcD54YGGRhuIg1XZkF7P9bOEyz7RUKao0_Co3s=@protonmail.com> Particularly in light of the fact that, as River pointed out, non-standard geometries can be acceptable under PVHO-1, but require an expensive series of destructive tests to do so, whereas the standard geometries are well proven and compliant to class if you follow the guidelines. As we have seen, OceanGate did not seem predisposed to extensive verification testing. I also wonder about what sort of visual abberation / lens effect you would get from a window with one convex face and one flat face? With regard to the salvage, I wonder if the port was still intact when they found it, and was subsequently either destroyed or removed in order to facilitate handling of the end cap? Titanium (assuming ASTM B265 Grade 5 per the ABS rules, but who knows?) is only weakly paramagnetic, so a magnetic clamp isn't going to work, and absent any preexisting and accessable lifting lugs / shackles they would probably have had to clamp the head edge with a manipulator and then drop it in a tray for the ascent, or attach a pipe clamp to an edge, or sling it through the viewport opening as some of the surface video shows. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 30, 2023, 12:30, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: Sean, My understanding was similar to River's that the viewport was a non-standard PVHO design. It sort of looked to me like a solid piece, convex on exterior and flat on interior but I can't really tell from online photos alone. A properly certified spherical segment or even flat conical was not a huge engineering obstacle to overcome for Titanic's depth. Makes you wonder why they didn't go that route, assuming they didn't. Jon On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 12:02:28 PM EDT, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles wrote: That will be a spherical sector window with conical bearing surface. You can kind of see the inside surface abberation if you look closely at the window in your video (0:12 - 0:18). Certainly, a window with spherical outer face and flat inner face is not a standard geometry in any reference. The spherical sector window with conical face is a superior geometry because all points of the window are exclusively in compression. This is why PVHO-1 gives such windows a 20 year base service life, as opposed to 10 years for square edge or flanged. Sean -------- Original Message -------- On Jun. 30, 2023, 09:05, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote: According to an article I found the viewport diameter was 53cm which I believe was the outside dimension. Based upon a video I found with Rush putting his hand up to the inside viewport I would estimate the inside diameter closer to 300mm. The seat appears conical however the viewport had a convex outside surface. Hard to say if that means it was just a regular spherical segment with conical seats or a conical viewport with a convex exterior surface. https://www.insider.com/titan-missing-submersible-photos-interior-exterior-dock-launch-2023-6#the-titans-viewport-measured-21-inches-according-to-oceangate-thats-the-biggest-viewport-of-any-deep-diving-submersible-6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkytJa0ghc (See 0:13 to 0:29) Jon On Friday, June 30, 2023 at 10:07:33 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures: Diameter hull 1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. Jon On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles wrote: I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. Carsten ? _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 15:25:17 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 12:25:17 -0700 Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <2aee2d5f-faa9-8151-52be-e3a2860312fe@archivale.com> <700137912.517641.1688066092200@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Lessons learned,need more persons die ? El jue, 29 jun 2023 a la(s) 23:54, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles (personal_submersibles at psubs.org) escribi?: > That makes better sense. I was imagining tapped bushings drilled and glued > directly into the hull structure. > > Marc > On 6/30/2023 3:14 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles wrote: > > Marc, > > The head was bolted to a titanium transition ring that was bonded to the > carbon fiber cylinder. There's a video out there somewhere that shows the > transition ring being glued to the hull. > > Jon > > > On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:47:48 AM EDT, Marc de Piolenc via > Personal_Submersibles > wrote: > > > I'm curious about the end cap being totally intact (except for the missing > viewport). If I remember the other video, the entire end cap is bolted onto > the pressure hull cylinder after the passengers have boarded. End cap > titanium, pressure hull laminated carbon fiber reinforced composite. I'm > thinking of differences in response to temperature changes and varying > external pressure. Could this have been a shear failure separating the > entire front assembly from the rest of the hull? I remember an earlier > message on this board mentioning scary sounds from the acoustic sensors - > strain at the bolted joint? It would be interesting to see what is left of > the bolts if they are ever recovered. > > Marc de Piolenc > > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing listPersonal_Submersibles at psubs.orghttp://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > > -- > Archivale catalog: http://www.archivale.com > Mass Flow (ducted fans): http://massflow.archivale.com > ProZ profile: https://www.proz.com/profile/639380 > Substack account: https://fmarcdepiolenc.substack.com > Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ph/piolenc > > _______________________________________________ > Personal_Submersibles mailing list > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 16:17:29 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 22:17:29 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1688156249227.187398.03e74020ef2f3fbc98fbb4c36a8ff27f4fc7b977@spica.telekom.de> I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: Diameter hull 1600 mm (given) Diameter front porthole outside 614 mm Diameter front porthole inside 436 mm But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to Diameter hull 1381mm Diameter front porthole outside 530 mm (given) Diameter front porthole inside 376 mm If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat of 60? I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat conical frustrum window. According to PVHO-1-1987 t /Di = 0,348 with t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) (for Short term critical presssure) But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical Edge. and flat inside. The code has no figures for such a window. But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t = 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm (for Short term critical presssure) The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5 windows to destroy dephs and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. Carsten . -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x). regards Antoine On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures: Diameter hull 1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. Jon On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From personal_submersibles at psubs.org Fri Jun 30 16:28:40 2023 From: personal_submersibles at psubs.org (MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles) Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2023 22:28:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site In-Reply-To: <1688156249227.187398.03e74020ef2f3fbc98fbb4c36a8ff27f4fc7b977@spica.telekom.de> References: <046701d9aa11$494ba340$dbe2e9c0$@gmail.com> <1552731559.94914.1687994295801@mail.yahoo.com> <346821887.364750.1688052403265@mail.yahoo.com> <1688053666837.117707.6c1367a3156dc68235ec412e799451893c799b84@spica.telekom.de> <779941605.505302.1688065851882@mail.yahoo.com> <1688131778929.174000.e64d9d14a7e2cb0679634d114c847f8888124b79@spica.telekom.de> <1688133743379.171690.cffbdedc4b8080f1875c9a5e6fe9a2788787c752@spica.telekom.de> <1688156249227.187398.03e74020ef2f3fbc98fbb4c36a8ff27f4fc7b977@spica.telekom.de> Message-ID: <1688156920189.234936.3b5bc4dac2242290453ef3511a96d718c73eb640@spica.telekom.de> If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4 it was good for around 1000 m. With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow: Diameter hull 1600 mm (given) Diameter front porthole outside 614 mm Diameter front porthole inside 436 mm But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to Diameter hull 1381mm Diameter front porthole outside 530 mm (given) Diameter front porthole inside 376 mm If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat of 60? I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat conical frustrum window. According to PVHO-1-1987 t /Di = 0,348 with t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm at 40 Mpa (4000m) (for Short term critical presssure) But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical Edge. and flat inside. The code has no figures for such a window. But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t = 0,195 x 376 = 73 mm To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 + 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm (for Short term critical presssure) The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5 windows to destroy dephs and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation. Carsten . -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200 Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles" An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" Hello Carsten, for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I believe it is 4x). regards Antoine On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03?PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm I come to the following rough figures: Diameter hull 1600 mm Diameter front porthole outside 700 mm Diameter front porthole inside 466 mm (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as entrance..) Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight. Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200 Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep. Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness? Carsten -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200 Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the retaining ring in place. See attached photo. Jon On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org > wrote: I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction. Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside. All titan parts in the video seems undamaged. Carsten _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: