[PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 107, Issue 4

Thu Nov 10 16:22:18 EST 2022

Jon,
Have you considered two smaller banks of 50ah batteries spread across both
pods? Unfortunately, the popular 12v 100ah LiFePO4 batteries on the market
are all just a little to big to fit in the kittredge pods.

I'm with you. From a maintenance point of view alone, LiFePO4 is the way to
go.

River J Dolfi
Rdolfi7 at gmail.com
412-997-2526

On Tue, Jun 7, 2022, 20:26 via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

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>    1. Re: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 107, Issue 2
>       (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 03:25:28 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: "personal_submersibles at psubs.org"
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>,
>         "personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org"
>         <personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 107,
>         Issue 2
> Message-ID: <1467532091.766897.1654658728231 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>  Hugh, how big are the files?? Can you email them to me?
> >From what I've seen and heard with others experience, I feel 50ah per
> trolling motor is plenty.? I'm using 36v 101# minnkota's and would like to
> use a 36v 100ah battery that could power two motors.? Length is not an
> issue but the diameter of the pods limits the width cross-section.? I'll
> have to measure again to get the exact size but it's about 8.75 inches.
> Rebel sells a 36v-100ah LiFePO4 for $1595 (US) but won't fit in my battery
> pods.? I might be able to get it to fit inside the sub though.
> Jon
>
>
>     On Monday, June 6, 2022, 06:18:07 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>  Hi Jon, Hank, et co.
>
> I have been repackaging LiFePO4 for 10 years now since I started.
> This is the main thing that has kept me from getting my sub in the water.
>
> First thing you need to decide on is the Life PO4 type.? Either cylindrical
> or Prismatic.? Cylindrical batteries have better performance.? I am using
> 15
> Ah cells (headway 40152S 15Ah )which have a 10C discharge i.e. 150 amps.?
> We
> have made a test circuit where we discharge them at 150 amps and see what
> the current drops to in each cell.? I have 560 cells.? The problem with
> them
> is that you need multiple CMU (cell management Units) to balance them and
> then report via CAN to the BMS.? These cells are 40mm diam x mounted in
> hexagonal plastic interlocking mounts and you can build different shapes.?
> I
> have a number of different strings of 8 cells (24v) in parallel and series.
> The idea of these is to have an air space around each cell and to provide
> good cooling.
>
> Due to the pain in my butt from having all these CMU's to deal with I am
> now
> changing over to Prismatic which are rectangular.? The ones I am using are
> 120Ah and I am able to get 1.5 times the total energy for the sub.? i.e.
> 32kwh instead of 22 kwh.? Now I am able to use far fewer CMU's and simplify
> the system and packaging but only able to get 2C discharge (240 amps per
> cell).? These cells are a lot cheaper and easier to manage and
> package/service etc..
>
> The problem with sub batteries is the length of time between uses and
> keeping the system charged.
>
> This is a lengthy subject and I have a fair bit of experience in problems
> that I have had.?
> I suggest you put together the wish list you have and the operating voltage
> and total amphours you are wanting to achieve.
>
> I would not recommend removing the BMS and CMU's from the packs.
>
> Jon if you can tell me where I can drop a bunch of documents I am sure I
> can
> assist with my experience in these.? I have had some cells let go and
> others
> punctured.? Both types.
>
> I am also importing electric vehicles with lead acid and going to convert
> to
> LiFePo4.
>
> Cheers to all,
> Hugh
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org> On
> Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles
> Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2022 7:50 AM
> To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 107, Issue 2
>
> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to
> ??? personal_submersibles at psubs.org
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> ??? http://www.whoweb.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> ??? personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> ? 1. Re: Repackaged LifePo4? (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles)
> ? 2. Re: Repackaged LifePo4? (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles)
> ? 3. Re: Repackaged LifePo4? (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 11:27:39 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
> ??? <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> ??? <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4?
> Message-ID: <1768746693.7700625.1654514859732 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>  I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the battery
> pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the original battery
> weight.? I believe I can literally power the entire submarine with just two
> LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to.? That's attractive to me in terms of
> maintenance.
> Jon
>
> ? ? On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:?
>
>  The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is
> designed
> using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but worth
> considering.?Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his
> three
> models and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but
> have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space limitations and
> possible weight differences.?Rick ?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> ?Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning.? I've been following
> some
> of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see what's
> inside and also test various functions of them.? I've notice with all of
> them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the
> container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered.? At
> first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the
> container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which
> seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur.? So
> I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can
> provide
> LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes.
> Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to
> current
> battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging current
> market LifePO batteries into smaller containers.? I can't see any reason
> not
> to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would want to
> hear.
> Jon
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 08:25:20 -0600
> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
> ??? <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> ??? <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4?
> Message-ID: <E937B7EF-67DE-429B-9F2A-92E5AC3A33A4 at yahoo.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Jon, I had the same idea and cut the top off one of my batteries. In my
> case
> there is little space saving height wise but there could be savings on the
> width.? The BMS sits on top of the cells.? There is no significant padding
> under the cells.? If you are willing to remove the BMS board, you could
> reduce the heigh by about 2 inches.? This would be very doable if you built
> a cage.
> Hank
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jun 6, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> > I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the battery
> pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the original battery
> weight.? I believe I can literally power the entire submarine with just two
> LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to.? That's attractive to me in terms of
> maintenance.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> >> On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is
> designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but worth
> considering.
> >> Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models
> and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but have
> decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space limitations and
> possible weight differences.
> >> Rick
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >> ?
> >> Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning.? I've been following
> some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see
> what's
> inside and also test various functions of them.? I've notice with all of
> them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the
> container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered.? At
> first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the
> container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which
> seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur.? So
> I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can
> provide
> LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes.
> >>
> >> Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to
> current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging
> current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers.? I can't see any
> reason not to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would
> want to hear.
> >>
> >> Jon
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> >
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> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:49:46 -0700
> From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles
> ??? <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> ??? <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4?
> Message-ID:
> ??? <CAHHFyEGjyRy2TnWcQHLWWH8xnJsrC2z+ciy1Y=VeNY-PqvG7LA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi Jon, I am currently using a single battery in the VAST interior AGM,
> weight of 58 lbs, dim 13.3x6.875x8.5" tall, 92 AH. My replacement lipo4 is
> 43.1 lbs, dim 19.02x6.7x9.45" tall, and 200AH.
> This battery I will be laying on its side which gives me an additional 2
> inches of vertical height, which will give me better access to the scrubber
> location.The loss of weight of 14.3 lbs will be cast as a lead weight and
> placed in my drop weight tray. Better center of gravity and less weight in
> the aft section.
> I have played with the idea of having the cells placed as an arc between
> the
> internal t ribs as an alternative by building my own lipo4 battery pack. It
> would certainly give back valuable? space in the VAST with such a design,
> just not sure I have the bandwidth to add another design project to my
> current schedule, but you never know.
> My thoughts on the battery pods, are to use the lipo4 as they come, figure
> out how to add lead weights in the hollow area beneath the batteries for
> some cast lead strips. At a cost $500 per battery or more depending on the
> AH desired, I wouldn't cut them open. Might be cheaper to build your own.
> David
>
> On Mon, Jun 6, 2022, 7:26 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> > Jon, I had the same idea and cut the top off one of my batteries. In
> > my case there is little space saving height wise but there could be
> savings on
> > the width.? The BMS sits on top of the cells.? There is no significant
> > padding under the cells.? If you are willing to remove the BMS board,
> > you could reduce the heigh by about 2 inches.? This would be very
> > doable if you built a cage.
> > Hank
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jun 6, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <
> > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> > I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the
> > battery pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the
> > original battery weight.? I believe I can literally power the entire
> > submarine with just two
> > LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to.? That's attractive to me in terms of
> > maintenance.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via
> > Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is
> > designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but
> > worth considering.
> > Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models
> > and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but
> > have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space
> > limitations and possible weight differences.
> > Rick
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <
> > personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> > Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning.? I've been following
> > some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see
> > what's inside and also test various functions of them.? I've notice
> > with all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly
> > smaller than the container they are inserted into and use padding keep
> > them centered.? At first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the
> > cells against the container but also noticed that padding is not used
> > on the bottom which seems to me where most movement that might cause
> > chafing would occur.? So I'm left to assume manufactures are simply
> > using padding so they can provide LifePo batteries in industry standard
> battery group sizes.
> >
> > Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to
> > current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about
> > repackaging current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers.?
> > I can't see any reason not to do it but am sure there are some
> > opinions out there I would want to hear.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> >
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