[PSUBS-MAILIST] Lithium battery

Mon Oct 19 21:19:10 EDT 2020

They are only 6.5 hrs from me in southern california. Might be worth the
trip vs shipping costs.
Best Regards,
David Colombo

804 College Ave
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
(707) 536-1424
www.SeaQuestor.com

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 6:17 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> David, I will start with two, witch is equal to what Gamma has and Gamma
> never let me down for power.  That takes into account that you can drain
> them down and get lots more range.  I am doing this to save building a
> 3,000 foot rated pressure housing.  There is a big weight restriction in
> E3000
> Hank
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020, 6:57:22 PM MDT, David Colombo via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hank, is that the Trojan Trillium?  I looked over their website and in
> their brochures with a claim of >5000 cycles to 80%DOD, I find no warranty
> information . The Battleborn as an example at 12v 100Ah,  3500 cycles, has
> a 10 year warranty @ $995.
> Just curious as I am also looking at LIPO4 batteries.
>
> Best Regards,
> David Colombo
>
> 804 College Ave
> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
> (707) 536-1424
> www.SeaQuestor.com
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:34 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Alan,
> I need batteries for my project in the spring.  The Trojans are ABS
> approved and 1,300 dollars Cad each.
> They are pretty light for 110 amp hr.  I think 23 lbs
> Hank
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020, 1:15:09 PM MDT, Alan via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hank,
> I have a 48V bank of lifePo4 batteries that I have been testing my thruster
> with on an inflatable. I don't have a balance charger, but it's preferable!
> All electric vehicles, scooters, bikes, skate boards etc seem to have them
> these days.
> Mine are fairly heavy.
> If you can hold off a while, they are making great progress with the
> lithium
> sulphur battery. These batteries already have 4 X the energy density of
> lithium
> iron but they are working on upping the number of charge cycles.
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> On 20/10/2020, at 5:45 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks guys. I think I steering toward Trojan at 12V and 110 ah
> These are ABS certified for inside the occupant sphere.
> I will keep looking and listening
> Hank
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 19, 2020, at 10:30 AM, Jim via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hank,
> Nuytco switched to LiFePo4 several years ago; Phil said it was a
> “no-brainer” since the life span, charge cycles, energy density, etc.
> actually make them cheaper in the long run.  In comparing capacity,
> remember that you can only discharge an AGM down to 50% or so without
> significant damage, whereas you can take Li down to 10%.  The numbers can
> be misleading unless you make the proper adjustments in order to make an
> apples to apples comparison.  Taking into account space and fit
> considerations, here is a size chart:
>
> BCI Battery Group Size Chart
> *Group Size*LxWxH (inches)LxWxH (cm)
> *Group* 24 *Batteries* 10.25 x 6.8125 x 8.875 26 x 17.3 x 22.5
> *Group* 27 *Batteries* 12.0625 x 6.8125 x 8.875 30.6 x 17.3 x 22.5
> *Group* 31 *Batteries* 13 x 6.8125 x 9.4375 33 x 17.3 x 24
> *Group* 34 *Batteries* 10.25 x 6.8125 x 7.875 26 x 17.3 x 20
> More info is available at www.batteryequivalents.com
>
> The fail point inside Li batteries seems to be the Battery Management
> System (BMS). On the cheaper batteries, the terminals, buss bars, and
> wiring are often under-sized.  For a non-sub application my choice is
> Battle Born. They are a little more expensive than other 100 amp hour
> batteries in their class (about $950), but the construction and quality is
> certainly superior.  www.battlebornbatteries.com
> They have some good videos including on on designing and sizing battery
> banks.
> I’ll have to take a closer look at the info Cliff provided.
>
> On a related subject (again for a non-sub application), I started with a
> Bluetti AC200 all-in-one which includes Battery bank, a 2000W pure sine
> wave inverter and six 120v outlets.
>
> You can get a lot of good info on YouTube by searching Will Prowse.  It’ll
> be interesting to see what you come up with.
>
> Cheers,
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 19, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Hank, I have been doing a lot of research on this vary issue with my new
> boat, the R800.  I really like the Valence U27-12xp lithium Li FePO4 battery.
> There is a least one commercial private sub that uses these battery
> modules.  Do a search on YouTube for info/ teardowns on these batteries.
> What is good about them is battery chemistry is more stable than
> conventional LI batteries and heavy duty electronics.  Not your typical
> crappy Chinese electronics. They come in a group 27 form factor with a
> nominal 12V with a built in BMS in each module.  Each module has a 137AH
> capacity.
> These modules new are on the order of $2,500 each but are readily
> available on Ebay at $450 each.  Each module has a life of 3000-4000 cycles
> with used modules on Ebay with 10-300 cycles so lots of life left in them.
> They are set up so that an overall BMS unit manages the entire pack
> interfacing with each modules interval BMS.  These modules can be
> configured in just about any series/parallel arrangement you can think.
> For my boat, I am looking at  3S2P configuration, that is, 3 of
> these U27-12XP's in series with 2 banks, one in each pod in parallel. This
> would give a bank voltage of 36V and a bank capacity of 274AH or 9.9kWh.  I
> am using 36V the main propulsion bank to mate with the Minn Kota 101
> running at 36V nominal.  IF you want more capacity, you would put more more
> in parallel, i.e., 3SnP where n=1, 2...  I am also using these for the
> emergecy battery bank with a 0S2P configuration for 24V nominal.
>
> Communication with module and cells within each module is via. serial
> communication using RS-485.  After a bank has been wired, you can connect a
> laptop an plug into the overall BMS and integrated each module on aspects
> such as number of cycles, cell voltage and temperature, current  ...
>
> For PLC guys, because it uses standard RS-485 serial communication, the
> PLC can also interface with any are all of the modules.  See for a quick
> overview.
>
> Valence U-Charge XP Series Lithium Ion Batteries
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRh2PVWRnsI>
>
> Valence U-Charge XP Series Lithium Ion Batteries
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRh2PVWRnsI>
>
> On the downside of LI, it would be good to hear from Hugh Fulton, designer
> of the Q-Sub in New Zealand.  The last time I spoke with Hugh he said that
> he was on his third set of LI batteries and was not a happy camper on the
> battery front.
>
> As a comparison, below is a table of the Valence U27-XP compared with a
> Mighty Max ML110-12 AGM.
>
> Comparison - Valence U27-12XP and MightMax ML110-12
> Description U27-12XP ML110-12
> Configuration 3S2P 3S2P
> Type Li FePO4 AGM
> Group 27 30H
> Bank Voltage 36V 36V
> Capacity 276 220
> Watt Hours 9.9 7.9
> Max Discharge current 150A 900A
> Bank Cost (6 modules) $2,700 used $1,212 new
> Cycles 4000 500
> Weight (Lbs) 42.2 63.9
> Requires BMS Yes No
> Detailed cell sensors YEs No
> SOC measurement Yes No
> Interface with PLC via RS485 Yes No
>
> For a shallow diving psub, the advantage of LI energy density as compared
> with AGM is not that important as we normally add lots of ballast but for a
> deep diver, you normally have much less ballast due to the added thickness
> of steel in the hull so the energy density  becomes a very big advantage.
> For the comparison above you can see the weight of the U27-12XP is 34%
> less than the ML110-12 AGM.
>
> Let me know what you finally end up with.  I am assuming this is for the
> E3000?
>
> Cliff
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020, 07:22:26 AM CDT, hank pronk via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
> I am looking at going with Lithium batteries inside my sub.  Of coarse
> weight is the reason.  Has anyone gone down this road?
> What is best?
> Hank
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