[PSUBS-MAILIST] Lithium battery

Mon Oct 19 20:56:54 EDT 2020

Hank, is that the Trojan Trillium?  I looked over their website and in
their brochures with a claim of >5000 cycles to 80%DOD, I find no warranty
information . The Battleborn as an example at 12v 100Ah,  3500 cycles, has
a 10 year warranty @ $995.
Just curious as I am also looking at LIPO4 batteries.

Best Regards,
David Colombo

804 College Ave
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
(707) 536-1424
www.SeaQuestor.com

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:34 PM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Alan,
> I need batteries for my project in the spring.  The Trojans are ABS
> approved and 1,300 dollars Cad each.
> They are pretty light for 110 amp hr.  I think 23 lbs
> Hank
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020, 1:15:09 PM MDT, Alan via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hank,
> I have a 48V bank of lifePo4 batteries that I have been testing my thruster
> with on an inflatable. I don't have a balance charger, but it's preferable!
> All electric vehicles, scooters, bikes, skate boards etc seem to have them
> these days.
> Mine are fairly heavy.
> If you can hold off a while, they are making great progress with the
> lithium
> sulphur battery. These batteries already have 4 X the energy density of
> lithium
> iron but they are working on upping the number of charge cycles.
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> On 20/10/2020, at 5:45 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks guys. I think I steering toward Trojan at 12V and 110 ah
> These are ABS certified for inside the occupant sphere.
> I will keep looking and listening
> Hank
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 19, 2020, at 10:30 AM, Jim via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hank,
> Nuytco switched to LiFePo4 several years ago; Phil said it was a
> “no-brainer” since the life span, charge cycles, energy density, etc.
> actually make them cheaper in the long run.  In comparing capacity,
> remember that you can only discharge an AGM down to 50% or so without
> significant damage, whereas you can take Li down to 10%.  The numbers can
> be misleading unless you make the proper adjustments in order to make an
> apples to apples comparison.  Taking into account space and fit
> considerations, here is a size chart:
>
> BCI Battery Group Size Chart
> *Group Size*LxWxH (inches)LxWxH (cm)
> *Group* 24 *Batteries* 10.25 x 6.8125 x 8.875 26 x 17.3 x 22.5
> *Group* 27 *Batteries* 12.0625 x 6.8125 x 8.875 30.6 x 17.3 x 22.5
> *Group* 31 *Batteries* 13 x 6.8125 x 9.4375 33 x 17.3 x 24
> *Group* 34 *Batteries* 10.25 x 6.8125 x 7.875 26 x 17.3 x 20
> More info is available at www.batteryequivalents.com
>
> The fail point inside Li batteries seems to be the Battery Management
> System (BMS). On the cheaper batteries, the terminals, buss bars, and
> wiring are often under-sized.  For a non-sub application my choice is
> Battle Born. They are a little more expensive than other 100 amp hour
> batteries in their class (about $950), but the construction and quality is
> certainly superior.  www.battlebornbatteries.com
> They have some good videos including on on designing and sizing battery
> banks.
> I’ll have to take a closer look at the info Cliff provided.
>
> On a related subject (again for a non-sub application), I started with a
> Bluetti AC200 all-in-one which includes Battery bank, a 2000W pure sine
> wave inverter and six 120v outlets.
>
> You can get a lot of good info on YouTube by searching Will Prowse.  It’ll
> be interesting to see what you come up with.
>
> Cheers,
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 19, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Hank, I have been doing a lot of research on this vary issue with my new
> boat, the R800.  I really like the Valence U27-12xp lithium Li FePO4 battery.
> There is a least one commercial private sub that uses these battery
> modules.  Do a search on YouTube for info/ teardowns on these batteries.
> What is good about them is battery chemistry is more stable than
> conventional LI batteries and heavy duty electronics.  Not your typical
> crappy Chinese electronics. They come in a group 27 form factor with a
> nominal 12V with a built in BMS in each module.  Each module has a 137AH
> capacity.
> These modules new are on the order of $2,500 each but are readily
> available on Ebay at $450 each.  Each module has a life of 3000-4000 cycles
> with used modules on Ebay with 10-300 cycles so lots of life left in them.
> They are set up so that an overall BMS unit manages the entire pack
> interfacing with each modules interval BMS.  These modules can be
> configured in just about any series/parallel arrangement you can think.
> For my boat, I am looking at  3S2P configuration, that is, 3 of
> these U27-12XP's in series with 2 banks, one in each pod in parallel. This
> would give a bank voltage of 36V and a bank capacity of 274AH or 9.9kWh.  I
> am using 36V the main propulsion bank to mate with the Minn Kota 101
> running at 36V nominal.  IF you want more capacity, you would put more more
> in parallel, i.e., 3SnP where n=1, 2...  I am also using these for the
> emergecy battery bank with a 0S2P configuration for 24V nominal.
>
> Communication with module and cells within each module is via. serial
> communication using RS-485.  After a bank has been wired, you can connect a
> laptop an plug into the overall BMS and integrated each module on aspects
> such as number of cycles, cell voltage and temperature, current  ...
>
> For PLC guys, because it uses standard RS-485 serial communication, the
> PLC can also interface with any are all of the modules.  See for a quick
> overview.
>
> Valence U-Charge XP Series Lithium Ion Batteries
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRh2PVWRnsI>
>
> Valence U-Charge XP Series Lithium Ion Batteries
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRh2PVWRnsI>
>
> On the downside of LI, it would be good to hear from Hugh Fulton, designer
> of the Q-Sub in New Zealand.  The last time I spoke with Hugh he said that
> he was on his third set of LI batteries and was not a happy camper on the
> battery front.
>
> As a comparison, below is a table of the Valence U27-XP compared with a
> Mighty Max ML110-12 AGM.
>
> Comparison - Valence U27-12XP and MightMax ML110-12
> Description U27-12XP ML110-12
> Configuration 3S2P 3S2P
> Type Li FePO4 AGM
> Group 27 30H
> Bank Voltage 36V 36V
> Capacity 276 220
> Watt Hours 9.9 7.9
> Max Discharge current 150A 900A
> Bank Cost (6 modules) $2,700 used $1,212 new
> Cycles 4000 500
> Weight (Lbs) 42.2 63.9
> Requires BMS Yes No
> Detailed cell sensors YEs No
> SOC measurement Yes No
> Interface with PLC via RS485 Yes No
>
> For a shallow diving psub, the advantage of LI energy density as compared
> with AGM is not that important as we normally add lots of ballast but for a
> deep diver, you normally have much less ballast due to the added thickness
> of steel in the hull so the energy density  becomes a very big advantage.
> For the comparison above you can see the weight of the U27-12XP is 34%
> less than the ML110-12 AGM.
>
> Let me know what you finally end up with.  I am assuming this is for the
> E3000?
>
> Cliff
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020, 07:22:26 AM CDT, hank pronk via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hi All,
> I am looking at going with Lithium batteries inside my sub.  Of coarse
> weight is the reason.  Has anyone gone down this road?
> What is best?
> Hank
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