[PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Sat Apr 27 10:00:28 EDT 2019
Alan there is a desinfection liquid for Hospital breathing mask, Gasmask
and diver rebreather.
You can use it to clean the BCD after using it for scuba diving.
As emergency devices I would simple recommend simple use an unused new BCD.
Desinfection like something like these here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=desinfektionsmittel+rebreather&client=firefox-b-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3jtaUtPDhAhVBU1AKHeNXBR4Q_AUIDygC&biw=1130&bih=825
<https://www.google.com/search?q=desinfektionsmittel+rebreather&client=firefox-b-d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3jtaUtPDhAhVBU1AKHeNXBR4Q_AUIDygC&biw=1130&bih=825>
But at least a dive course were they training the emergency exit will also
much help to bring you to the safer side.
My deepest emergency surfaceing without a gear was from 24 meters (abt 80
feet) - my rebreather stalled.
My deepest emergency surfaceing with scuba gear was from 42 meter
(138feet), a sharp steel from the wreck of a WWII GB Submarine destroy my
dry suit on one leg side and it start very cold and fast flooding. Lucky no
bents or other issues after all - just exhaust.
So I have some training with BCB, Dive gears and Steinke Hoods.
If I should select I would first try the Steine Hood, than the BCD and at
last a small scuba gear. Simple becuas the scuba gear gives you no extra
bouancy. But this is my personal chooise. Other guys may have other
preferences.
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Datum: 2019-04-27T02:15:15+0200
Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion"
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Carsten,
yes you could rely on air out of your BCD but it is not regarded as a good
practice because of disinfectants used to clean out BCDs. You would need
to find a suitable sterilising product. But this is an emergency!
I think maybe, as I have said, an escape plan for every 100 ft based on the
volume of your sub, how quickly you can flood it, how quickly you can
equalise
your ears & what mixed gas you need to avoid getting narced, bent & O2
Poisoning. Beyond certain depths you would need to start breathing mixed
gas from a pony bottle or whatever as the hull equalised.
Now you have me thinking!!! What about an external scuba tank full of mixed
gas plumbed through to the cabin to breath from during the flooding of the
hull,
this would give you a lot more time to equalise your ears! Plumb this tank
to
act as a reserve ballast blow so it is not wasted. Leave the sub with the
pony
bottle full of mixed gas & inflate the horseshoe BCD with it, then breath
from
the BCD.
Alan
On 27/04/2019, at 9:45 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de
<mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de> via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Alan the pony is just for the first filling the vest in the moment you
leave the sub.
During the fast as possible way to the surface the air in the vest
expand all the
time and leave via the overpressure valve.
Imagine you have a vest of say 4 Liter. How much air will be in if you
leave the sub in 100 meter deeps?
Right - around 40 liters. During your way to the surface 36 liters will
leave via the overpressure vale.
Pretty much air to breath. The pony bottle is just there for the first
filling- so you have not to fill tthe
vest wih your lungs because this is exhaust gas and the process may
exhaust you also.
A filled 220 bar by 0,5 Liter pony bottle contains 110 liter expand
gas.
If we assume the vest has 4 Liters volume you can fill the vest up to a
depth equal to 27 bar or 270 meter dephts.
And you can breath all these 110Liter air from the vest except the last
4 liters which you need on the surface
for bouancy.
In real life it is may better first to leave the sub and than open the
valve to fill the vest.
Otherwise it makes you more bulky and you have the possibility to
scratch the vest somewere on your sub exit.
If you have no expiernce with such vest you should traning it in a 2-4
meter depth pool to get an feeling for it.
On Euronaut we have all that gear on board. Scuba vest, Steinke hoods
and dive gear including suits.
On a emergency exit of a sunen military argentinna submarnne which was
sunken in the 80ies or 90ies some crew members manage to escape from 40
meter depth. The guys with the Steinke Hoods and no dive expierence
survifed all.
The colleges with the scuba expierence use the dive gears - help the
other guys to get out -
and died later on decompression thickness. :-(
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Datum: 2019-04-26T23:03:14+0200
Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Sean / all,
the cold will certainly be a factor but you will be exposed to that for
some
time while the submarine fills with water & equalises. So the extra 15
seconds
grabbing an external tank won't be major.
What I fear most is bursting my ear drums, & freezing water in the
inner ear.
I imagine this would be very painful, maybe like brain freeze, but I am
only guessing.
Some people have more problems than others equalising & once you start
to
feel pain in your ear from pressure it is more difficult to equalise.
I think some control on the flooding speed to let you equalise your
ears would
be an asset. Pitty to burst your ear drums when you might be doing a
simple
escape from 100ft.
As Emile & Carsten showed with their practice escapes; they could get
out
relatively easily, & with a bit of air ( 6 cu ft pony bottle ) you
could get to the
surface easy enough.
If I were escaping from deeper I would use a pony bottle with mixed gas
some
time after the equivalent of 150ft & this would buy me a bit of time to
equalise
& save my ears, then escape & use my large mixed gas tank to go to the
surface
making stops if I felt able.
There is sense in you saying Keep It Simple, but if you pre plan &
practice, a
more complex but safer escape is possible. Maybe work out how long it
is going
to take to fill your particular sub at varying depths, how quickly you
could equalise
for varying depths. How long your pony bottle would last you & have a
knowledge
of what stops would be best for the varying depths you may escape from.
At least that would take away a lot of the fear of the unknown & reduce
panic.
BTW I am a diver & amateur speleologist so used to cold wet tight
spaces.
Alan
On 27/04/2019, at 12:17 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Alan - Don't overthink this. A buoyant emergency ascent can get you
to the surface in less than 60 seconds if you are not purposefully
attempting to limit your ascent rate. How long can you hold your
breath (not that you should)? A gas source helps you avoid a
hypoxic blackout, but with a hood of any description you shouldn't
drown. You'll just end up rebreathing some of the hood gas. As we
discussed earlier, hypothermia will be an issue, as will the
exposure time - it is actually better to get up from depth ASAP
than to spend time messing around at depth and then having a bunch
of stuff slowing your ascent while deep. My point about the gas
consumption was to illustrate how impractical it would be to carry
sufficient gas to enable an ascent as a diver would do it.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 25, 2019, 23:39, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
More thoughts on escape...
Went in to a couple of dive shops today looking at pony
bottles.
The smallest they were selling were 19 cu ft. I did see a 13 cu
ft they were
filling. Both looked too big for my intended dual purpose use
of a horse shoe
BCD as a life jacked. A bit clutsy getting in to the sub
wearing a BCD & large
tank. They make a 6 cu ft pony bottle but I would have to
import it & it would
only get me to the surface from about 100ft.
I had the thought of filling a 6 cu ft pony bottle with mixed
gas & having an
80 cuft mixed gas tank outside the hull. It could have an
octopus regulator
( to avoid free flow) permanently on the 80 & a quick
disconnect fitting on it that
a hose attaches to for use as a reserve ballast blow.
So you breath through your pony reg while flooding & escaping,
then when
outside use the 80 cu ft tank reg while detaching the ballast
hose, attaching
the BCD connection and un latching the tank.
It could be practiced in the garage with your eyes closed &
done in about 15
seconds. Any thoughts on this?
Alan
On 26/04/2019, at 1:38 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Thanks Carsten,
I am thinking I may go with something similar; a horse
collar BCD with a
13 cu ft pony bottle. (BCD below).
It could double as a life jacket, has manual inflation &
push button inflation.
I would have a regulator off the pony bottle as well.
The BCD has an over inflation valve but if you wanted your
air to last in an emergency
you could breath expanding air out of the BCD through the
manual inflation
mouth piece. With a BCD as apposed to a life jacket you
have the chance to
slow your ascent & do a decompression stop.
I am not sure what the maximum depth is that I could come
up from with a 13 cu ft
tank.
I could use this for shallow dives or as a supplement for
snorkelling, so it won't be
sitting in a sub doing nothing.
Alan
<image1.PNG>
On 25/04/2019, at 7:42 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de
<mailto:MerlinSub at t-online.de> via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
We figure out that the best escape equipment will be a
Steinke hood (hard to get now)
or a traditional scuba west with a small on board air
bottle.
Both give you the high lift capacity you need to make
an fast rise.
For bigger subs and cold waters light diving suits will
help muxh.
Second it will help you a lot if you allready a diver
or had make a course.
We make some years ago some exercieces with a semi
finish Psub scuttled in a pool .
First go out were really bad feelings and schock about
the water rush in and the cold and so.Have these in
mind: panic.
But after 3-4 times and with the knowledge it was fun
to do the escape exercice.
With training and the right gear I see no problem to
get out of a sub even from much greater dephts.
The releasing signal bouy should have a stopper on the
reel. Otherwise a 300 m rope bouy will drived far away
with a sub sunken in 30 m .
And make the life of the rescue diver much harder. The
rope shall resitance the force a human can pull on it -
say 150 Kg at least.
Somebody on the surface can come to the conclusion to
lift the baot on these rope- better make a mark on the
Bouy "Sunken submarine - dont pull on the rope!"
vbr Carsten
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Datum: 2019-04-25T00:07:11+0200
Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Perhaps a Psub plan for escape from down to 100ft, as
you could do this
100 times out of 100 if you knew what you were doing.
Also even though most subs are capable of diving deeper
there is more
probability that entanglements like ropes & nets are
going to be encountered
In shallower depths.
BTW the pressure in the sub is going to increase
incrementally quicker as it
floods & you need to keep equalising your ears like mad
toward the end or
you'll burst your ear drums, & aside from that pain,
will have freezing water
going in to your inner ear. That would increase your
chances of failure.
Alan
On 24/04/2019, at 4:12 PM, Stephen Fordyce via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Hi all,
This is an interesting discussion I've been meaning
to weigh in on - as an experienced tech/deep/cave
diver rather than a sub person.
My feel is that unless the escapee is an
experienced diver (and even then), the chances of a
successful escape from below 50m/150ft depth are so
low as to be almost negligible. And I'd suggest
having a plan for such is (almost) an entirely
false sense of security - and energy should be
diverted elsewhere to reduce risk.
A few of the scarier things like narcosis and the
bends have had a lot of airtime, but basic stuff
like keeping a diving mask clear (and one that's
probably fogging up), panic-breathing a soggy SCUBA
reg and dealing with the thermal shock of sudden
immersion are likely to cause death by drowning
much earlier. Don't underestimate the thermal shock
and how useless it makes you with no exposure suit.
Breathing a regulator without a mask is a skill in
itself. You're probably already suffering from
fatigue, stress, high CO2 and/or low O2 from
waiting for rescue and getting to such a desperate
point. All of these cause significant mental
impairment before you even start on the escape.
Forget about planning to hold stops on the way up,
switch gases or do decompression. Even if you're
lucky enough to still be conscious and thinking in
the latter stages of the rapid ascent, personal
buoyancy control is unlikely to be possible.
So if you're going to attempt to escape, I suggest
the best chance for survival is to plan on a very
simple setup (per person), buoyancy for a
rapid/undignified ascent, and needing urgent
medical attention and oxygen on the surface. Maybe
carry a cylinder of trimix on board to give
yourself a better chance of being able to think,
but it's a big weight/cost premium if it's enough
to be useful. Use a divers (with closed bottom)
"lift bag" and a loop around at the armpits as a
quick and easy way to get a person shooting
upwards. CO2 inflatable life jacket to keep
unconscious head above water on surface. (Inflate
at depth while conscious - won't fill much, but
will expand on way up) Might be better put towards
things like extra life support duration. Consider
doing regular practise drills that are as realistic
as possible.
Highly skilled divers mess up basic skills in
stressful situations and die with sad regularity.
Don't imagine your (and passengers) chances of
winging it at depth will be anything other than
tiny. 30m/90ft and shallower they are a bit better.
I hate to be negative, but perhaps for deep PSUB
diving, the inability to escape is just one of
those residual risks that can be accepted for a
recreational activity.
Cheers,
Steve Fordyce
Melbourne, Australia
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:57 hank pronk via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
I think all submarines should have an escape pod
or jettisoning occupant sphere. I admit I made a
mistake with my escape pod by making it only for
one. An easy fix that I will likely tackle, and
that is to stretch the pod making it big enough
for two. E3000 has a jettisoning occupant
sphere.
Hank
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019, 5:39:01 PM MDT, TOM
WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
A compact bail out rebreather might be the most
surviveable solution however it would require a
significant commitment in training, maintenance
as well as the cost of the equipment itself. I
personally have not been following the
development of bailout rebreathers, although i'm
aware that some are working on this. My dive
group relies on planning for open circuit bailout
in the event of rebreather failure.
If money is no object, I am partial to the ISC
Megalodon classic CCR. In terms of robustness and
deep water capability, you will find none
better.
It will get you home and flies itself. It is an
electronic CCR which maintains PPO2 for the user.
This is the unit I dive myself and feel very
confident in.
KISS classics, which are a simple and reliable
mechanical CCR apparatus, often come up on the
used market in affordable price ranges.
Both would require significant equipment specific
training but would get you out of a 400 ft jam
with only two small cylinders and gas to spare.
CCR duration is driven by metabolic rate and is
the same irrespective of operational depth. Even
the lowest end units will give you an hour plus.
On ascent, rebreathers do require the diver to be
monitoring the oxygen level display in the
breathing loop and very likely adding oxygen
manually - particularly in the mCCR type on a
fast ascent.
The other benefit of this setup is that an air
cell for buoyancy can be integrated easily in one
compact package.
It sounds like a lot of effort for the non diver,
but it is a functional answer to the risks of a
sub disabled in deep water.
What is a life worth?
How much risk can one accept for a hobby?
Food for thought anyhow.
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:34 PM -0400, "Alan via
Personal_Submersibles" <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
As an alternative to possible death or even
worse, the loss of your submarine,
I am in early stages of designing a buoy release
mechanism that is used
for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon
that can be activated
with an electro magnet.
Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a
tensioning mechanism & have an
automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide
down the braid but is fixed
to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope
to the ring & let down untill
latch attaches to submarine. Pull up"
The automatic latch is a device that Phil
described & provided a drawing for,
but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic
boat latch ( used on release
& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am
still searching & if anyone
knows of one that may be suitable I would be
interested.
Alan
On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
There is a significant difference between
submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive
with regard to both the dive profile and the
equipment that you can reasonably carry. An
escape is more akin to what is known as a
buoyant emergency ascent in recreational
diving, where you need to get to the surface
yesterday and all other considerations are
secondary. In this specific case, trying to
keep to a slow ascent rate would
significantly increase the incurred
decompression obligation that you must
necessarily then blow off as you ascend
through the shallows, introducing an even
greater risk. You also have the hypothermia
issue to deal with if you are not equipped
with exposure protection specifically
intended for submersion at depth. Being cold
reduces decompression effectiveness. In order
to keep to a target ascent rate or perform
decompression stops, you would need diving
instrumentation (depth gauge and timer),
would need the skills and experience to
perform gas switches and hold stops, and
would need significantly more bulky equipment
to have enough gas to perform a proper
decompression (slow ascent, gas switches,
etc.).
When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear
twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back
with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for
the planned depth and time), plus three or
four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the
decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25,
EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of
argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as
an escapee you are not so equipped. Far
better to lockout as quickly as possible and
rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get
clear of those depths where you are ongassing
the most, and if at all possible, to slow the
ascent as you approach the surface, and then
have your surface support or emergency
responders administer oxygen as transport is
arranged to recompression. To be clear, an
emergency escape from a disabled submarine at
these depths is not even remotely a good idea
- it is simply a marginally better idea than
dying on the bottom.
To illustrate, if you were to attempt a
continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average
depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5
atmospheres absolute. If you assume a
surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. /
minute (high, but typical of a diver who is
stressed or working hard, which is inevitable
in a submarine escape scenario), that
corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the
average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min
ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft.
of gas consumed just for the continuous
ascent with no decompression stops, without
consideration for the gas consumed while
blowing down and locking out. You can judge
for yourself the practicality of carrying an
80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency
escape purposes.
Sean
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David
Colombo via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and
scary at the same time. Accent rates form
the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max
with a recommended max accent rate of 30
ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what
volume of mixed gases would you need for
a 10 minute accent assuming you choose
not to swim 60ft/min.
Best Regards,
David Colombo
804 College Ave
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
(707) 536-1424
www.SeaQuestor.com
<http://www.SeaQuestor.com>
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As an alternative to possible death or even
worse, the loss of your submarine,
I am in early stages of designing a buoy release
mechanism that is used
for surfacing safely but has an emergency beacon
that can be activated
with an electro magnet.
Thoughts are to use 150 lb braid with a
tensioning mechanism & have an
automatic boat latch mechanism that can slide
down the braid but is fixed
to the buoy with instructions, "tie a long rope
to the ring & let down untill
latch attaches to submarine. Pull up"
The automatic latch is a device that Phil
described & provided a drawing for,
but there may be a cheap & suitable automatic
boat latch ( used on release
& retrieve on boat launching) on the market. I am
still searching & if anyone
knows of one that may be suitable I would be
interested.
Alan
On 24/04/2019, at 10:51 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
There is a significant difference between
submarine escape and a planned SCUBA dive
with regard to both the dive profile and the
equipment that you can reasonably carry. An
escape is more akin to what is known as a
buoyant emergency ascent in recreational
diving, where you need to get to the surface
yesterday and all other considerations are
secondary. In this specific case, trying to
keep to a slow ascent rate would
significantly increase the incurred
decompression obligation that you must
necessarily then blow off as you ascend
through the shallows, introducing an even
greater risk. You also have the hypothermia
issue to deal with if you are not equipped
with exposure protection specifically
intended for submersion at depth. Being cold
reduces decompression effectiveness. In order
to keep to a target ascent rate or perform
decompression stops, you would need diving
instrumentation (depth gauge and timer),
would need the skills and experience to
perform gas switches and hold stops, and
would need significantly more bulky equipment
to have enough gas to perform a proper
decompression (slow ascent, gas switches,
etc.).
When I dive to these depths on SCUBA, I wear
twin cylinders (>100 cu. ft. each) on my back
with the bottom gas (10/70 or whatever for
the planned depth and time), plus three or
four off-board cylinders (80s) carrying the
decompression gases (typically 21/35, 35/25,
EAN50 and oxygen), plus a small bottle of
argon for drysuit inflation. Obviously, as
an escapee you are not so equipped. Far
better to lockout as quickly as possible and
rapidly ascend (with buoyant assist) to get
clear of those depths where you are ongassing
the most, and if at all possible, to slow the
ascent as you approach the surface, and then
have your surface support or emergency
responders administer oxygen as transport is
arranged to recompression. To be clear, an
emergency escape from a disabled submarine at
these depths is not even remotely a good idea
- it is simply a marginally better idea than
dying on the bottom.
To illustrate, if you were to attempt a
continuous ascent from 300 fsw, the average
depth is 150 fsw, which is about 5.5
atmospheres absolute. If you assume a
surface air consumption rate of 1 cu. ft. /
minute (high, but typical of a diver who is
stressed or working hard, which is inevitable
in a submarine escape scenario), that
corresponds to 5.5 cu. ft. / min at the
average depth of the ascent. At a 30 ft/min
ascent rate, that's 10 minutes, or 55 cu. ft.
of gas consumed just for the continuous
ascent with no decompression stops, without
consideration for the gas consumed while
blowing down and locking out. You can judge
for yourself the practicality of carrying an
80 on a PSub sized vessel just for emergency
escape purposes.
Sean
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 12:32 PM, David
Colombo via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and
scary at the same time. Accent rates form
the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max
with a recommended max accent rate of 30
ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what
volume of mixed gases would you need for
a 10 minute accent assuming you choose
not to swim 60ft/min.
Best Regards,
David Colombo
804 College Ave
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
(707) 536-1424
www.SeaQuestor.com
<http://www.SeaQuestor.com>
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