[PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Fri Apr 26 02:46:45 EDT 2019
Hi Antoine, nice work, looks like a copy of Euronauts optronic mast.. :-)
Its 100 x 10 mm by 2 meters acrylic and as pipe normaly use in the chemical
industry up to an internal pressur of 80 bars.
Make sure that in not use condition it will be covered against sun light.
https://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/operational/IMG_2894.JPG
<https://www.euronaut.org/content/gfx/operational/IMG_2894.JPG>
vbr Carsten
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Datum: 2019-04-26T03:41:58+0200
Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion"
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Looks pretty impressive Antoine,
well done.
Alan
On 26/04/2019, at 11:01 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Rick,
I did mention the tilting buoy.
it is basically 1m long transparent acrylic tube 90mm diameter, and two
caps, with reinforcement rings inside to hold external pressure
I has a strobe light near the top of the buoy, then the satellite
tracker beneath, then further down a tilt switch which turns on the
connection between the probe and batteries once the buoy reaches a
verticality or thereabouts, further down there are batteries and lead
to keep the buoy upright.
the flash light s taken from a handheld safety flash light people
attach to lifevests like
https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/detail/acr-firefly-plus-flashlight-with-signal-strobe-1916-994
<https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/detail/acr-firefly-plus-flashlight-with-signal-strobe-1916-994>
the buoy sits flat on the top of the sub, but if I release the rope
spool (kite surf dynema line, 200meters), then it tilts up and lights
up. I tested it at night live and it works pretty well;
<image.png>
regards
Antoine
On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:54 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
someone posted earlier when people started sharing what they had on
board for emergency's that they had an emergency buoy that had a
strobe that was activated when it rotated 90 degrees but I can't find
it, must of accidentally deleted it. If whoever had that sees this, I
would appreciate knowing where you got it as I would like to add that
to my emergency buoy.
Thanks to everyone about sharing their views on bailout gasses. That
is what makes this site so valuable!!!
Rick
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 AM David Colombo via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time.
Accent rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a
recommended max accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth,
what volume of mixed gases would you need for a 10 minute accent
assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.
Best Regards,
David Colombo
804 College Ave
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
(707) 536-1424
www.SeaQuestor.com <http://www.SeaQuestor.com>
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a
question. Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers
corresponding to the oxygen percentage and the helium percentage,
so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12% oxygen, 65% helium, and
balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to describe
nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second
number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%.
Heliox and nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number
corresponding to the oxygen percentage since the balance gas is
implied. Heliox 16 is the same as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched
Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50% oxygen, balance nitrogen.
END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means
the gas mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic
effect comparable to breathing air at 80 fsw.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which
has a PPO2 of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push
the PPO2 to closer to the 1.6 maximum, because a higher
oxygen content implies a lesser decompression obligation, and
I would accept a slightly deeper END, because the nitrogen
uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression
obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400,
I'd suggest 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of
95 fsw, which is still reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not
and must not occur deeper than 70 fsw, and if at all
possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at the
switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to
get on 100% oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression
facility.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles
< personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Thanks Sean.
What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at 350 –
400 ft. Looking for a simple off the shelf mix for the
different depths. Then I can see how critical the depth
is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the
necessary valving. It might be impossible but if it is
achievable simply it would help me sleep. Regards, Hugh
From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:
personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org> ] On
Behalf Of Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid
the hypoxic zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its
treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure is negligible.
I would want my surface support or emergency response to
arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic
DCS, prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a
recompression facility can make the difference between
temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I could
be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced,
then 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I
were escaping without surface support, and would likely
have to signal and wait for some time for an evacuation,
I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone
in order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the
best shot at survival with a bend. In an escape scenario,
the ascent rate negates any decompression advantage of
getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only get
three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70.
I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical
arrangement facilitates the switch though. Breathing a
high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you must ensure
somehow that this is not possible.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via
Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
What about using a EAN50 for the second gas?
You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more
latitude on the minimum operating depth of the first gas.
At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas
which provides a better safety margin.
Just running some numbers for gas quantities...
At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would
consume around 9 CFM.
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On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Very well said Sean.
I do have some thought on your last statement about
choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would
even be a consideration at all in that situation. My
reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment
would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be
no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and
escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb
enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The
rate of ascent might be an issue.
The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas
which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the
surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many
have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow.
Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died
never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of
his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation.
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On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some
have perished doing so.
Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some
excellent examples of this.
The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6
atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally
considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot.
Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
218 fsw.
Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others.
It is also experienced differently while immersed as
opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is
greater.
It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the
partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be
before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen
partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a
single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of
oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally
eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and
neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
understanding of it.
The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs
are formed and more quickly a person may be affected.
As divers we stay within the safe known operating
parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive.
Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the
authorities is drowning but usually some other factor
caused that outcome.
In your escape situation, your exposure time might be
small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would
think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the
sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could
predispose to ox tox also.
If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the
greatest possibility of success.
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
There have been numerous successful escapes from around
150' depth. And free divers have set records going
close to 400' I believe.
Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at
218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?
Great analysis !
Brian
--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
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As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending
technician I feel qualified to comment on this.
Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2
content that is borderline at the surface. It would be
toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient
pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen ,
oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life
and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored
specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to
the surface.
The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at
elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this
could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable
when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
drowning.
Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing
this, what this means to you is that for dives of this
depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe
oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The
problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13%
oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is
because of the reduced partial pressure from lower
ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
oxygen into the body..
In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one
of two ways.
1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases
of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix
also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)
2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas
on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure
for the depth. These are very expensive and require far
more training than open circuit scuba.
I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can
say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely
use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to
extreme risk of drowning.
16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain
life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of
297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by
augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as
nitrogen (27%)
The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth
equivalent exposure using air.
Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go
with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all
bets are off.
Something else to consider is that in a bailout
situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub
could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to
equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be
breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air
becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.
I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my
best to help.
Tom
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On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
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--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
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Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
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There have been numerous successful escapes from around
150' depth. And free divers have set records going
close to 400' I believe.
Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at
218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?
Great analysis !
Brian
--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
_______________________________________________
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending
technician I feel qualified to comment on this.
Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2
content that is borderline at the surface. It would be
toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient
pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen ,
oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life
and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored
specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to
the surface.
The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at
elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this
could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable
when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
drowning.
Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing
this, what this means to you is that for dives of this
depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe
oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The
problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13%
oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is
because of the reduced partial pressure from lower
ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
oxygen into the body..
In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one
of two ways.
1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases
of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix
also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)
2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas
on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure
for the depth. These are very expensive and require far
more training than open circuit scuba.
I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can
say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely
use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to
extreme risk of drowning.
16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain
life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of
297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by
augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as
nitrogen (27%)
The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth
equivalent exposure using air.
Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go
with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all
bets are off.
Something else to consider is that in a bailout
situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub
could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to
equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be
breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air
becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.
I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my
best to help.
Tom
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
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--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some
have perished doing so.
Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some
excellent examples of this.
The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6
atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally
considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot.
Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
218 fsw.
Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others.
It is also experienced differently while immersed as
opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is
greater.
It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the
partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be
before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen
partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a
single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of
oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally
eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and
neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
understanding of it.
The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs
are formed and more quickly a person may be affected.
As divers we stay within the safe known operating
parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive.
Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the
authorities is drowning but usually some other factor
caused that outcome.
In your escape situation, your exposure time might be
small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would
think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the
sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could
predispose to ox tox also.
If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the
greatest possibility of success.
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
There have been numerous successful escapes from around
150' depth. And free divers have set records going
close to 400' I believe.
Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at
218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?
Great analysis !
Brian
--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
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As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending
technician I feel qualified to comment on this.
Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2
content that is borderline at the surface. It would be
toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient
pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen ,
oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life
and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored
specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to
the surface.
The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at
elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this
could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable
when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
drowning.
Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing
this, what this means to you is that for dives of this
depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe
oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The
problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13%
oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is
because of the reduced partial pressure from lower
ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
oxygen into the body..
In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one
of two ways.
1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases
of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix
also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)
2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas
on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure
for the depth. These are very expensive and require far
more training than open circuit scuba.
I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can
say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely
use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to
extreme risk of drowning.
16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain
life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of
297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by
augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as
nitrogen (27%)
The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth
equivalent exposure using air.
Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go
with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all
bets are off.
Something else to consider is that in a bailout
situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub
could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to
equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be
breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air
becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.
I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my
best to help.
Tom
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
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<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
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There have been numerous successful escapes from around
150' depth. And free divers have set records going
close to 400' I believe.
Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at
218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?
Great analysis !
Brian
--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
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As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending
technician I feel qualified to comment on this.
Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2
content that is borderline at the surface. It would be
toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient
pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen ,
oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life
and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored
specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to
the surface.
The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at
elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this
could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable
when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
drowning.
Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing
this, what this means to you is that for dives of this
depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe
oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The
problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13%
oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is
because of the reduced partial pressure from lower
ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
oxygen into the body..
In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one
of two ways.
1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases
of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix
also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)
2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas
on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure
for the depth. These are very expensive and require far
more training than open circuit scuba.
I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can
say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely
use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to
extreme risk of drowning.
16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain
life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of
297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by
augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as
nitrogen (27%)
The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth
equivalent exposure using air.
Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go
with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all
bets are off.
Something else to consider is that in a bailout
situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub
could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to
equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be
breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air
becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.
I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my
best to help.
Tom
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On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
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Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
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Very well said Sean.
I do have some thought on your last statement about
choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would
even be a consideration at all in that situation. My
reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment
would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be
no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and
escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb
enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The
rate of ascent might be an issue.
The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas
which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the
surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many
have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow.
Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died
never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of
his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation.
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some
have perished doing so.
Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some
excellent examples of this.
The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6
atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally
considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot.
Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
218 fsw.
Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others.
It is also experienced differently while immersed as
opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is
greater.
It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the
partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be
before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen
partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a
single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of
oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally
eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and
neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
understanding of it.
The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs
are formed and more quickly a person may be affected.
As divers we stay within the safe known operating
parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive.
Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the
authorities is drowning but usually some other factor
caused that outcome.
In your escape situation, your exposure time might be
small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would
think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the
sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could
predispose to ox tox also.
If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the
greatest possibility of success.
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
There have been numerous successful escapes from around
150' depth. And free divers have set records going
close to 400' I believe.
Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at
218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?
Great analysis !
Brian
--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
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As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending
technician I feel qualified to comment on this.
Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2
content that is borderline at the surface. It would be
toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient
pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen ,
oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life
and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored
specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to
the surface.
The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at
elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this
could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable
when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
drowning.
Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing
this, what this means to you is that for dives of this
depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe
oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The
problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13%
oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is
because of the reduced partial pressure from lower
ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
oxygen into the body..
In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one
of two ways.
1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases
of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix
also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)
2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas
on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure
for the depth. These are very expensive and require far
more training than open circuit scuba.
I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can
say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely
use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to
extreme risk of drowning.
16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain
life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of
297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by
augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as
nitrogen (27%)
The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth
equivalent exposure using air.
Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go
with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all
bets are off.
Something else to consider is that in a bailout
situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub
could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to
equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be
breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air
becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.
I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my
best to help.
Tom
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
There have been numerous successful escapes from around
150' depth. And free divers have set records going
close to 400' I believe.
Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at
218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?
Great analysis !
Brian
--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
_______________________________________________
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending
technician I feel qualified to comment on this.
Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2
content that is borderline at the surface. It would be
toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient
pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen ,
oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life
and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored
specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to
the surface.
The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at
elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this
could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable
when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
drowning.
Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing
this, what this means to you is that for dives of this
depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe
oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The
problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13%
oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is
because of the reduced partial pressure from lower
ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
oxygen into the body..
In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one
of two ways.
1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases
of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix
also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)
2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas
on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure
for the depth. These are very expensive and require far
more training than open circuit scuba.
I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can
say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely
use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to
extreme risk of drowning.
16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain
life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of
297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by
augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as
nitrogen (27%)
The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth
equivalent exposure using air.
Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go
with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all
bets are off.
Something else to consider is that in a bailout
situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub
could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to
equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be
breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air
becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.
I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my
best to help.
Tom
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
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<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
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Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some
have perished doing so.
Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some
excellent examples of this.
The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6
atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally
considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot.
Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
218 fsw.
Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others.
It is also experienced differently while immersed as
opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is
greater.
It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the
partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be
before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen
partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a
single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of
oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally
eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and
neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
understanding of it.
The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs
are formed and more quickly a person may be affected.
As divers we stay within the safe known operating
parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive.
Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the
authorities is drowning but usually some other factor
caused that outcome.
In your escape situation, your exposure time might be
small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would
think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the
sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could
predispose to ox tox also.
If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the
greatest possibility of success.
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
There have been numerous successful escapes from around
150' depth. And free divers have set records going
close to 400' I believe.
Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at
218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?
Great analysis !
Brian
--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
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As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending
technician I feel qualified to comment on this.
Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2
content that is borderline at the surface. It would be
toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient
pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen ,
oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life
and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored
specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to
the surface.
The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at
elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this
could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable
when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
drowning.
Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing
this, what this means to you is that for dives of this
depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe
oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The
problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13%
oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is
because of the reduced partial pressure from lower
ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
oxygen into the body..
In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one
of two ways.
1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases
of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix
also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)
2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas
on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure
for the depth. These are very expensive and require far
more training than open circuit scuba.
I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can
say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely
use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to
extreme risk of drowning.
16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain
life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of
297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by
augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as
nitrogen (27%)
The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth
equivalent exposure using air.
Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go
with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all
bets are off.
Something else to consider is that in a bailout
situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub
could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to
equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be
breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air
becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.
I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my
best to help.
Tom
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
There have been numerous successful escapes from around
150' depth. And free divers have set records going
close to 400' I believe.
Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at
218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?
Great analysis !
Brian
--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
_______________________________________________
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As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending
technician I feel qualified to comment on this.
Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2
content that is borderline at the surface. It would be
toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient
pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen ,
oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life
and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored
specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to
the surface.
The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at
elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this
could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable
when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
drowning.
Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing
this, what this means to you is that for dives of this
depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe
oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The
problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13%
oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is
because of the reduced partial pressure from lower
ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
oxygen into the body..
In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one
of two ways.
1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases
of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix
also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)
2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas
on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure
for the depth. These are very expensive and require far
more training than open circuit scuba.
I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can
say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely
use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to
extreme risk of drowning.
16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain
life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of
297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by
augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as
nitrogen (27%)
The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth
equivalent exposure using air.
Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go
with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all
bets are off.
Something else to consider is that in a bailout
situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub
could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to
equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be
breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air
becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.
I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my
best to help.
Tom
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via
Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
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Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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Sean,
Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die
intoxicated in the sub.
I think every sub would have to develop their own
equations for escaping
at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a
best scenario for
escape for those classes of submersibles.
Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the
surface. A conventional
life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable
ones wouldn't
Inflate much against the water pressure.
We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed
under your arms
and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution
for 1 passenger.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to
alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a
bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be
bent at the surface than narced to the extent that
I'm unable to leave the bottom.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of
the water coming
through the flood valve because of the compression of
the air in the sub.
Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the
equalisation required
to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub
slows right down toward
the end. Also he advised that getting out at over
300ft is near impossible
due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that
you can't get out anyway.
Alan
On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had
been non-obvious to me in connection with
bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours -
just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the
sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball
valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to
bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which
happens to be the normal pressure for household
plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long
to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch
while it was parked on your driveway and stuck
the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that
is, and it will depend on the volume of your
cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute
no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom
line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously
sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is
3".
Best,
Alec
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Shanee
Depending on the depth that you have to flood
the sub and make a free accent to the surface,
it really depends on how fast you need to
equalize to try and get to the surface before
exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting
bent on course. Only the air cavity's are
affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but
my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as
I remember from the old navy tables, you only
have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to
make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
have to flood the sub as fast as I can to
minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the
surface before getting bent and the negatives to
that are that most people can't clear their ears
that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing
your ear drums which in turn is really painful
and screws up you equilibrium which is going to
hamper your safe accent to the surface in a
timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in
my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the
surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as
minimal as possible.
Rick
On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also,
forgetting food, water, blankets and a first
aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty
for my whole life!
Steinke hoods are probably a good idea,
although I'm terrified of them myself. Does
anyone have any information on what pressure
change effects happen physiologically during an
emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
familiar with what happens when you descend and
ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens
with a sudden and extreme pressure increase.
Other than all your organs getting squished, of
course.
Thanks for your input everybody!
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via
Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi Shanee,
That's a pretty comprehensive list you have,
and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a
pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
thing... a flashlight.
Best,
Alec
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee
Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering what everyone's onboard
safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose'
gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are
(so far):
CG requirements
air horn
whistle
life jackets
fire extinguisher
safety
fire blanket
2x scuba masks
2x spare air
primary gas analyzer
backup gas analyzer
spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
handheld radios
uw radio system
repair kit
gorilla tape
electrical tape
butyl tape
zip tie assortment
spare battery terminals
spare wire connectors
spare wire
splash zone
JB weld
steel tie wire
steel strap
e6000 glue
hose clamp assortment
screwdriver set
adjustable wrench
multi-tool
hammer
scissors
What's in your kits?
Best,
Shanee
--
Institute for Emergence//Community
Submersibles Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers
are impervious to our verbal cultures, while
the substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy
freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to
forget our carnal inherence in a
more-than-human matrix of sensations and
sensibilities. Our bodies have formed
themselves in delicate reciprocity with the
manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an
animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in
subtle interaction with other eyes, as our
ears are attuned by their very structure to
the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our
minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
_______________________________________________
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Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
<http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
--
Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles
Project
:::::
'The fact remains that political frontiers are
impervious to our verbal cultures, while the
substantially nonverbal civilization of
playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom
of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
:::::
'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our
attention hypnotized by a host of human-made
technologies that only reflect us back to
ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget
our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our
bodies have formed themselves in delicate
reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds,
and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have
evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes,
as our ears are attuned by their very structure
to the howling of wolves and the honking of
geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
voices, to continue by our lifestyles to
condemn these other sensibilities to the
oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own
senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds
of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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