[PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear

Mon Apr 22 23:27:35 EDT 2019

Free diving / breath hold diving does not subject the diver to the same risks, because the total oxygen content in the free diver's lungs is limited to the surface contents at first submersion. SCUBA and surface supplied divers breathe additional gas under pressure, so despite having the same PPO2 at depth, the toxicity potential of a lung full of air is much greater when you are inhaling large quantities of it at the ambient pressure at depth.

218 fsw is the limit for air based on oxygen toxicity alone, though this is typically contraindicated on SCUBA due to the narcotic potential. Oxygen limits for a diver in the water (surface-oriented diving) are typically 1.6 ATM for decompression / recommended maximum, though a maximum of 1.2 to 1.4 is typical for planned bottom / working phases of the dive, and this is typically reduced as the dives get longer in order to reduce total cumulative exposure. 0.4 is the maximum that can be tolerated indefinitely, so that or less is used in saturation operations. Higher PPO2s can be tolerated in a gas space, so accelerated decompression in habitats or chambers can expose a diver to higher oxygen levels than can be tolerated in the water, due to the vertical pressure differential across the lungs.

Obviously a planned SCUBA dive to 300 fsw would employ different gases than you might use for submarine escape from that same depth, because cumulative exposure is a non issue when you're just locking out and rocketing to the surface. You would want to max out your PPO2 at 1.6 for escape, instead of planning about 1.2 for a bottom gas that might be appropriate for a dive, since the duration of that 1.6 will be minimal during an escape. Similarly, a SCUBA dive to that depth might employ 21/35, 35/25, 50/0 and 100/0 as decompression gases, requiring gas switches on the ascent. In an escape scenario, you can't easily switch gases, but it's almost a moot point because the exposure time is limited, and ascent rate / profile is well outside the bounds of any reasonable planned dive.

A submarine escape from that depth is essentially making a conscious decision to choose decompression sickness over drowning or asphyxiation in the cabin atmosphere in the disabled vessel.

Sean

-------- Original Message --------
On Apr 22, 2019, 21:03, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles wrote:

> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.   And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>
> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>
>  Great analysis  !
>
> Brian
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>
> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this.
> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning.
> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body..
> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)
> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air.
> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.
> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
> Tom
> Get [Outlook for Android](https://aka.ms/ghei36)
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>> Sean,
>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional
>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>> Alan
>>
>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Alec
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Shanee
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.
>>>>>> Rick
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Alec
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> CG requirements
>>>>>>>>> air horn
>>>>>>>>> whistle
>>>>>>>>> life jackets
>>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> safety
>>>>>>>>> fire blanket
>>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>>>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>>>>>> handheld radios
>>>>>>>>> uw radio system
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> repair kit
>>>>>>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>>>>>> electrical tape
>>>>>>>>> butyl tape
>>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>>>>>> spare wire
>>>>>>>>> splash zone
>>>>>>>>> JB weld
>>>>>>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>>>>>> steel strap
>>>>>>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>>>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>>>>>> multi-tool
>>>>>>>>> hammer
>>>>>>>>> scissors
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>> Shanee
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> :::::
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> :::::
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> :::::
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> :::::
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> Sean,
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
> Alan
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom.
>>
>> Sean
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.
>>> Alan
>>>
>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Shanee
>>>>>
>>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.
>>>>> Rick
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Alec
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> CG requirements
>>>>>>>> air horn
>>>>>>>> whistle
>>>>>>>> life jackets
>>>>>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> safety
>>>>>>>> fire blanket
>>>>>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>>>>> handheld radios
>>>>>>>> uw radio system
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> repair kit
>>>>>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>>>>> electrical tape
>>>>>>>> butyl tape
>>>>>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>>>>> spare wire
>>>>>>>> splash zone
>>>>>>>> JB weld
>>>>>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>>>>> steel strap
>>>>>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>>>>> multi-tool
>>>>>>>> hammer
>>>>>>>> scissors
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Shanee
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> :::::
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> :::::
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :::::
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :::::
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles mailing list [Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org](/eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org) http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
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