[PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 91

Daniel Lance via Personal_Submersibles personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Wed Sep 20 21:22:52 EDT 2017 

Yes , Dye penetrate only works on surface defects .
In the hands of a skilled experienced technician ultrasound is amazing .
The Tech can you what type of defect , how big , how deep etc,etc . No
roping off the work area , and waiting to develop the film . I would go
with the UT .
Dan

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:43 AM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Jerry,
> Sean or Dan may be able to correct me but what little I know about that
> process mainly only shows cracks that have made their way to the surface
> and not all the way to the root.
>
> Thought more costly, X ray and ultra sound which is more accurate than X
> ray tell the whole story.
> Rick
>
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 7:18 AM Jerry Koontz via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>> Weld inspection can be done with Magnetic particle inspection. It is an
>> inexpensive method that works really well. I use the dry power and a car
>> battery. Works good.
>>
>> Here is some more information on that method.
>>
>> Magnetic particle Inspection (MPI) is a non-destructive testing (NDT)
>> process for detecting surface and slightly subsurface discontinuities in
>> ferromagnetic materials such as iron, nickel, cobalt, and some of their
>> alloys. The process puts a magnetic field into the part. The piece can be
>> magnetized by direct or indirect magnetization. Direct magnetization occurs
>> when the electric current is passed through the test object and a magnetic
>> field is formed in the material. Indirect magnetization occurs when no
>> electric current is passed through the test object, but a magnetic field is
>> applied from an outside source. The magnetic lines of force are
>> perpendicular to the direction of the electric current, which may be either
>> alternating current (AC) or some form of direct current (DC) (rectified AC).
>>
>> The presence of a surface or subsurface discontinuity in the material
>> allows the magnetic flux to leak, since air cannot support as much magnetic
>> field per unit volume as metals.
>>
>> To identify a leak, ferrous particles, either dry or in a wet suspension,
>> are applied to a part. These are attracted to an area of flux leakage and
>> form what is known as an indication, which is evaluated to determine its
>> nature, cause, and course of action, if any.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> To: "personal submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 7:17:31 AM
>> Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 51, Issue 91
>>
>> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Heads Question (Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 06:17:51 -0600
>> From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles"
>>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question
>> Message-ID: <7356e0c7-9a7d-4f7e-8305-3c5de3918232 at email.android.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Fatigue issues in weldments typically arise as a result of the geometry
>> of the weld, where fatigue sensitive details such as doubler plates, sharp
>> interfaces, inherent "cracks" at the apexes of partial penetration welds,
>> overlapping weld toes etc. cause local amplification of the service stress
>> ranges. Pressure hulls are inherently resistant to fatigue as a result of
>> the mandated geometries, CJP welds, and barring the high strength alloys,
>> the generally tougher nature of e.g. ASTM A516 Gr. 70 steel. I might go as
>> far as to say that a PSub is unlikely to see enough high stress cycles
>> within its lifetime to justify worrying about fatigue at all. Indeed, ABS
>> only requires a fatigue analysis under specific conditions:
>>
>> >From the ABS rules (2017):
>> Section 6/9:
>>
>> Fatigue? (2002) A? fatigue analysis? is? to? be submitted? when? it is?
>> anticipated? that the life time? full range pressure? cycles? N will
>> exceed? that obtained? from? the following? equation:
>>
>> N = [1160(3000? ?? T)/(Kf?? ?? 14500)]^2
>>
>> where
>>
>> T = temperature? in? degrees? C? (degrees? F)? corresponding? to?
>> application? of? the? cyclic? or repeated stress
>> K? =? 5688 SI/MKS units (4? U.S.? units)
>> f? = range? of? cyclic stress? kg/mm2? (lb/in2)
>>
>> Pressure cycles? of? less? than? full? pressure are to? be included? in?
>> N? in? the ratio? p/P? where? p? is? the? actual pressure of? the? cycle?
>> under? consideration? and? P? is? the design? pressure.
>>
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>>
>> On September 19, 2017 12:39:42 PM MDT, River Dolfi via
>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> >I'm sure Sean can also speak at length about this, but a single
>> >pressure
>> >test gives no information about fatigue life. The size of flaw in a
>> >weldment (and all welds have flaws) may not be constant over the
>> >service
>> >life of the vessel. Weld material with sufficiently low fracture
>> >toughness
>> >(aided by low temperatures) will have it's flaws elongate with each
>> >cycle,
>> >as predicted by the Paris Law of crack propogation, until eventually
>> >reaching a critical size and fracturing. This is compounded rather
>> >unpredictably by the corrosion typical of a marine environment.
>> >
>> >All I know is that I know nothing. But sometimes I think we should pool
>> >our
>> >money and buy an ultrasound machine...
>> >
>> >-River J. Dolfi
>> >
>> >412-997-2526 <(412)%20997-2526>
>> >rdolfi7 at gmail.com
>> >
>> >On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:29 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <
>> >personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to
>> >>         personal_submersibles at psubs.org
>> >>
>> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >>
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>> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >>         personal_submersibles-request at psubs.org
>> >>
>> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >>         personal_submersibles-owner at psubs.org
>> >>
>> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> >> than "Re: Contents of Personal_Submersibles digest..."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Today's Topics:
>> >>
>> >>    1. Re: Heads Question (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Message: 1
>> >> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 17:23:42 +0000 (UTC)
>> >> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
>> >>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> >> To: Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles
>> >>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question
>> >> Message-ID: <674133299.2545129.1505841822312 at mail.yahoo.com>
>> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >>
>> >>  Dan, Rick,I would argue that you guys are indeed experts. ?I am
>> >> not,,,but,, I am an expert experimenter and tester . ?My welder has a
>> >60%
>> >> duty cycle and I have welded and tried to destroy the weldments and
>> >> actually wrecked a jack trying . ?I test welded and bent and tortured
>> >> material and not once did a weld break. ?Again you guys are the
>> >experts but
>> >> Elementary 3000 had 392,500 lbs trying to push the hatch through the
>> >> opening with no issues at all. ?I can talk about my welding all day
>> >long
>> >> but it is the pressure test that says it all. ? I would have tested
>> >it a
>> >> lot higher but that was the limit of the chamber.How can you explain
>> >my
>> >> pretty welds holding ?6,500 lbs per inch? ?If my welder can only weld
>> >sheet
>> >> metal, why did it not fail? ? I am a pretty luck guy, maybe that is
>> >it
>> >> ;-)Hank
>> >>
>> >>     On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 11:00:50 AM MDT, Rick Patton via
>> >> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  Mig welds can be deceptive sometimes. I have seen very pretty
>> >factory
>> >> fellet mig welds come threw my doors in both aluminum and mild steel
>> >where
>> >> the weld had completely let go of one of the two sides due to lack of
>> >> penetration.? The prep or process wasn't done correctly but yet it
>> >still
>> >> looked good.?This is not the case with TIG or stick. There is a
>> >saying
>> >> amongst Welders that if a stick weld looks good, it probably is. If
>> >it is a
>> >> critical weld, you still want to X ray or UT it but you will always
>> >have
>> >> penetration on both sides unlike mig. Beginners and novice welders
>> >> sometimes gravitate towards Mig as it is easier than stick but a
>> >pressure
>> >> vessel that you are going to be in, then l would stick with stick
>> >"pun
>> >> intended " or if your insistent on Mig, have it done professionally
>> >or make
>> >> darn sure your using the correct equipment as Dan inferred.?Rick?
>> >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 9:08 AM Daniel Lance via
>> >Personal_Submersibles <
>> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hank,I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .? I am just
>> >relying
>> >> on what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto
>> >is if
>> >> a person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new
>> >> everyday ! ?:)Dan
>> >> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
>> ><
>> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  Dan,I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading
>> >the
>> >> wire into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but,
>> >you are
>> >> the expert and we should take your advice.? No question about it, i
>> >would
>> >> not want to encourage anything else.Hank
>> >>     On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via
>> >> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  ?Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state
>> >for
>> >> the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the "
>> >Short
>> >> Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to
>> >> consult a licensed qualified , experienced ?Welding Engineer before
>> >doing
>> >> so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG (
>> >short arc
>> >> ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) ,
>> >when
>> >> used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature
>> >and
>> >> ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for
>> >building
>> >> pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an
>> >inherent
>> >> tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a
>> >northern
>> >> latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the
>> >upper
>> >> 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well
>> >> documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom
>> >pressure of
>> >> hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds p!
>> >>  er square inch. Chances are very good that the hull won't fail on
>> >the
>> >> first dive or hydro test but basically what you have is the
>> >proverbial "
>> >> one bullet in the revolver " situation ?leading to a false sense of
>> >> security . ? ?Like I mentioned earlier consult a "Licensed" qualified
>> >,
>> >> experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice before loading that
>> >spool
>> >> of wire in your shiny new welding machine or hiring the "expert
>> >welder from
>> >> down the street . Like the old saying goes " what you don't know can
>> >hurt
>> >> you " .Dan Lance
>> >> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
>> ><
>> >> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  Alec,Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.? I
>> >hear
>> >> all the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in" ?or ?" I like to
>> >crank
>> >> er up" ?LOL.The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you
>> >introduce
>> >> parent metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.? You need
>> >sufficient
>> >> penetration and I have no problem achieving that.? I mig welded
>> >Elementary
>> >> 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to
>> >1,250
>> >> psi.Hank
>> >>     On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via
>> >> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using
>> >mig on
>> >> a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always
>> >heard
>> >> from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not
>> >for jobs
>> >> like full penetration where quality trumps speed.
>> >> On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
>> >> <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  Alec,I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the
>> >inside
>> >> then grind outside as you do.? When your welding such light material,
>> >the
>> >> external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you
>> >started
>> >> with a bevel on both sides.? Same difference really.? The big
>> >difference is
>> >> guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are
>> >> professional welders.Hank
>> >>     On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via
>> >> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>  Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the
>> >sharp
>> >> end of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An
>> >air gap
>> >> of about 1/8" is left between the two parts.
>> >> 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the inside of the hull, plugging the
>> >air
>> >> gap.?2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root
>> >pass.
>> >> Use a 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny
>> >U
>> >> shaped channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities
>> >> whatsoever.3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until
>> >meeting
>> >> the plate thickness.
>> >> Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The
>> >method
>> >> I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem.
>> >> Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >> Alec?
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via
>> >Personal_Submersibles
>> >> <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your
>> >wire/stick/Tig
>> >> will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID
>> >of the
>> >> hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching
>> >your
>> >> first pass.Rick?
>> >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles
>> >> <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled
>> >.?Brian
>> >>
>> >> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From: Private via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
>> >org>
>> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>> ><personal_submersibles at psubs.
>> >> org>
>> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question
>> >> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400
>> >>
>> >> Hi David,
>> >> Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was
>> >my
>> >> "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you
>> >can
>> >> avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only
>> >need
>> >> one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of
>> >the
>> >> cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a
>> >good
>> >> point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding
>> >yourself or
>> >> contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help
>> >from Dan
>> >> Lance.
>> >> Best,
>> >> Alec
>> >> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via
>> >Personal_Submersibles
>> >> <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi David,
>> >> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank
>> >fabricator
>> >> to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine
>> >came
>> >> machine welded with an ASME code stamp.?If your design will feature
>> >> external frames, ask them for both heads welded on. If your design
>> >will
>> >> feature internal frames (done later) ask them to weld one end only.
>> >This
>> >> will be cheaper in the long run and better built. It's hard to beat
>> >> pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO backing strips.
>> >> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank".
>> >> Greg Cottrell
>> >>
>> >>       From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles
>> >> <personal_submersibles at psubs. org>
>> >>  To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>> ><personal_submersibles at psubs.
>> >> org>
>> >>  Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM
>> >>  Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question
>> >>
>> >> Hi Alec, I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in
>> >> California to place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I
>> >will be
>> >> using the 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1
>> >Ratio
>> >> ASME Code Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od
>> >ring
>> >> shape as part of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first
>> >hull
>> >> section. I'm thinking that this would give me the best welding
>> >condition
>> >> with two matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding.
>> >I'm
>> >> curious why not to have the flange? ? My cost here is $480.00 + $96
>> >to have
>> >> it shipped to northern California from southern California. even
>> >though its
>> >> only a nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more
>> >than $5
>> >> hr to pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank),
>> >I
>> >> might make the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma.
>> >Any
>> >> thoughts out there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Best Regards,
>> >> David Colombo
>> >>
>> >> 804 College Ave
>> >> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
>> >> (707) 536-1424
>> >> www.SeaQuestor.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles
>> >> <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not
>> >> "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself".
>> >> !!!!!!!
>> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Roberto,
>> >> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged,
>> >beveled, and
>> >> code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to
>> >make a
>> >> flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set
>> >up a
>> >> project page or something so we can follow progress!
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >> Alec
>> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via
>> >Personal_Submersibles
>> >> <personal_submersibles at psubs.o rg> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am? interested in the? head
>> >> selection, i found a seler in california and have?flanged ,beveled
>> >,code,
>> >> non code,
>> >> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd )
>> >> ______________________________ _________________
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>> >>
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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