[PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question

Tue Sep 19 12:07:07 EDT 2017

Hank,
I do not in any manner consider myself an expert .  I am just relying on
what I learned during 36 years in the welding industry . My motto is if a
person keeps the right attitude he or she can learn something new everyday
!  :)
Dan

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Dan,
> I could tell you all about the million tests I did after loading the wire
> into my shiny welder and i could talk about the results, but, you are the
> expert and we should take your advice.  No question about it, i would not
> want to encourage anything else.
> Hank
>
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2017, 4:52:00 AM MDT, Daniel Lance via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>  Since the topic has come up in this current thread I want to state for
> the record that I would encourage anyone contemplating using the " Short
> Arc MIG welding process " to weld their submarine's pressure hull to
> consult a licensed qualified , experienced  Welding Engineer before doing
> so ( and NOT the Welding machine manufacturers sales rep) . MIG ( short arc
> ) should only be used on light gauge metals ( .1875" and below ) , when
> used on heavier thickness steel it produces welds brittle in nature and
> ultimately prone to cracking . This process is ill suited for building
> pressure vessels especially ones intended for PVHO . Steel has an inherent
> tendency to become brittle at low ambient temperatures ( think a northern
> latitude lake where the bottom temperature could possibly be in the upper
> 30s , 40s or 50 degrees F range ) add to that a welding process well
> documented to produce brittle welds and then factor in a bottom pressure of
> hundreds maybe even thousands of pounds per square inch. Chances are very
> good that the hull won't fail on the first dive or hydro test but basically
> what you have is the proverbial " one bullet in the revolver " situation
>  leading to a false sense of security .    Like I mentioned earlier consult
> a "Licensed" qualified , experienced Welding Engineer and heed his advice
> before loading that spool of wire in your shiny new welding machine or
> hiring the "expert welder from down the street . Like the old saying goes "
> what you don't know can hurt you " .
> Dan Lance
>
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 2:57 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Alec,
> Yup, I have heard it all from the stick welding only crowd.  I hear all
> the time "I like to turn it up and burn it in"  or  " I like to crank er
> up"  LOL.
> The fact is, too much penetration is bad because you introduce parent
> metal into the filler metal, and that is bad.  You need sufficient
> penetration and I have no problem achieving that.  I mig welded Elementary
> 3000 and it is 1 inch thick, with no problem, and it has been to 1,250 psi.
> Hank
>
> On Monday, September 18, 2017, 10:13:50 AM MDT, Private via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
>
> Yep, I think you're probably right! My only concern would be using mig on
> a pressure vessel though. I'm not an expert, but what I've always heard
> from those who are is that it's for high-productivity jobs but not for jobs
> like full penetration where quality trumps speed.
>
> On Sep 18, 2017, at 7:56 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
> Alec,
> I like a bevel on both sides, and I also do a mig pass on the inside then
> grind outside as you do.  When your welding such light material, the
> external grind job is creating the same shape weld grove as if you started
> with a bevel on both sides.  Same difference really.  The big difference is
> guys like Rick and Dan can do this all at ounce because they are
> professional welders.
> Hank
>
> On Sunday, September 17, 2017, 8:33:43 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
>
> Here's the method I used. The starting point is a bevel with the sharp end
> of course on the ID and the wide end of the wedge on the OD. An air gap of
> about 1/8" is left between the two parts.
>
> 1) TIG weld the root pass, from the *inside* of the hull, plugging the
> air gap.
> 2) Grind with an angle grinder from the outside into the root pass. Use a
> 1/4" wheel on the angle grinder. You need to get a clean shiny U shaped
> channel, pure like-new metal, with no visible discontinuities whatsoever.
> 3) Stick weld from the outside building up layers until meeting the plate
> thickness.
>
> Perhaps a double bevel would be needed for very thick material. The method
> I'm describing, I've used on material up to 1/2" with no problem.
>
> Dan, if I'm talking rubbish please set me straight!
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
> Definitely want to bevle both sides. If you don't, your wire/stick/Tig
> will short out way too soon becoming molten and not reaching the ID of the
> hull and you will have to do a lot of back gouging before reaching your
> first pass.
> Rick
>
> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 3:54 PM Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
> I have found that I get a better weld if both sides are beveled .
>
> Brian
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> wrote:
>
> From: Private via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question
> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:30:01 -0400
>
> Hi David,
>
> Absolutely, you want it with the flange. Any impression otherwise was my
> "mind typo" that I was trying to clarify in the second email. If you can
> avoid beveling it yourself, however, it'll save quite a job. You only need
> one of the two edges beveled, either the head flange or the end of the
> cylinder it will mate to, and it doesn't matter which. Greg has a good
> point, but I suppose a key factor is whether you'll be welding yourself or
> contracting out. I learned to do my own, with an awful lot of help from Dan
> Lance.
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:50 PM, james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi David,
>
> In my experience it was cheaper and faster to hire an ASME tank fabricator
> to produce a steel cylinder with the head (or heads) welded on. Mine came
> machine welded with an ASME code stamp.
> If your design will feature external frames, ask them for both heads
> welded on. If your design will feature internal frames (done later) ask
> them to weld one end only. This will be cheaper in the long run and better
> built. It's hard to beat pressure vessel code machine welding. Specify NO
> backing strips.
>
> Another tip- call it a "vacuum tank".
>
> Greg Cottrell
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:20 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Heads Question
>
> Hi Alec,
> I just spoke with the company that Roberto mentioned here in California to
> place an order for dished head for the SeaQuestor. I will be using the
> 36"OD x .375 A516-70 steel what they call Elliptical 2:1 Ratio ASME Code
> Type. It comes with a 2" flange which is really a 36" od ring shape as part
> of the forming. This would mate up to the 36"OD first hull section. I'm
> thinking that this would give me the best welding condition with two
> matched surfaces that I would bevel for full pen welding. I'm curious why
> not to have the flange?   My cost here is $480.00 + $96 to have it shipped
> to northern California from southern California. even though its only a
> nine hour drive one way, I think my time would be worth more than $5 hr to
> pick it up. LOL Unless of course its cheaper in Canada (Hank), I might make
> the trip and could serve as support crew for the Gamma. Any thoughts out
> there from fellow Psubers would be appreciated.
>
> Best Regards,
> David Colombo
>
> 804 College Ave
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=804+College+Ave+Santa+Rosa,+CA.+95404+(707&entry=gmail&source=g>
> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=804+College+Ave+Santa+Rosa,+CA.+95404+(707&entry=gmail&source=g>
> (707
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=804+College+Ave+Santa+Rosa,+CA.+95404+(707&entry=gmail&source=g>)
> 536-1424
> www.SeaQuestor.com <http://www.seaquestor.com/>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
> org <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>> wrote:
>
> Ugh, mental typo. I meant "un-beveled" and "bevel them yourself", not
> "un-flanged" and "flange them yourself".
>
> !!!!!!!
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Roberto,
>
> I believe the short description for what you need is flanged, beveled, and
> code. You could get them unflanged, but it takes quite a while to make a
> flange with an angle grinder. The flanges if I recall are 2". Do set up a
> project page or something so we can follow progress!
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.o rg <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
> wrote:
>
> Hi, lost the plans cd for the k250, i am  interested in the  head
> selection, i found a seler in california and have
> flanged ,beveled ,code, non code,
>
> Will apreciate your support in this ( until i found the plans cd )
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.or g <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/l istinfo.cgi/personal_submersib les
> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>
> ______________________________ _________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org http://www.psubs.org/mailman/
> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs. org <Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/ listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles
> <http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://www.whoweb.com/pipermail/personal_submersibles/attachments/20170919/a8d18d2f/attachment-0001.html>