[PSUBS-MAILIST] DNVGL

River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Sun Oct 22 14:54:44 EDT 2017 

Don't give up hope (yet) Alan!

If you check the DNVGL documentation requirement definitions (RU SHIP Pt1,
CH3, sec 2, sub-sec 1.2) you will find that type approval (TA) is basically
a short-cut method to avoid being required to submit design paperwork for
direct approval (AP) by DNVGL. If allowed, you can submit a type approval
instead of having your component individually approved.

The good (and bad) news is, the manned submersible rules (RU UWT pt5 chp6
sec2 subsec 5.2) state that *everything* on a sub is AP, subject to
approval, so there is no need to use exclusively TA components. Even if you
built a sub with only type-approved components, you still need to provide
engineering documents, manufacturer certificates, and they all need
re-approved by the society on a case-by-case (read: expensive and slow)
basis.

Or atleast that's what I understand from my reading of the rules. I'm an
engineer, not a lawyer god-damn-it!

Thanks,

-River J. Dolfi

On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 11:36 AM, via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

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>    1. Re: DNVGL (via Personal_Submersibles)
>    2. Re: DNVGL (Alan via Personal_Submersibles)
>    3. Markham submarine (Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles)
>    4. Re: Markham submarine (Alan via Personal_Submersibles)
>    5. Fw: actuator (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 19:56:06 -0500
> From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DNVGL
> Message-ID: <20171022005606.16494.qmail at server268.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Alan,
>
> I believe you mean there is no Negative or Positive connected to the
> frame. Earth is neither negative or positive. We are going through the full
> process and have been working with Jonathan Struwe from DNVGL. Our
> batteries are lead acid and are coincidentally the exact same as DSV Alvin
> uses.
>
> Thank you,
> Scott Waters
>
> >  -------Original Message-------
> >  From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> >  To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> >  Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DNVGL
> >  Sent: Oct 21 '17 19:38
> >
> >  Scott, River.
> >  I had a technical advice contract with DNVGL. The reason being so that
> >  I
> >  could build to their specifications without going through their
> >  $100,000
> >  process. Costs you about the same as an expensive lawyer, but it all
> >  depends on how many questions you have.
> >  The electrical rules for submarines over-ride the electrical rules for
> >  ships.
> >  If you were totally familiar with their electrical rules you could
> >  wire up a
> >  super tanker! A lot in there as they have to cover computerised
> >  control.
> >  Sean is right about no earths in submarines.
> >  The electrical through hulls need to be constructed so that if the
> >  cable is
> >  sheared off, no water can ingress. I saw a lot of through-hull
> >  fittings at
> >  UI New Orleans & not all had this ability. I guess if you are building
> >  for a
> >  predominantly ROV market it isn't so necessary.
> >  DNVGL normally have reps at UI. I spent quite a bit of time picking
> >  their
> >  brains when I went there.
> >  They are flexible in some areas & have a golden rule that no one
> >  failure
> >  can result in a major event.
> >  What sort of batteries have you got?
> >  Deep Sea Power & Light have an ABS type certification on their oil
> >  compensated
> >  battery.
> >  http://www.deepsea.com/?s=sea+battery
> >  South West Electronics have a compensated lithium battery. They were
> >  looking to get type approval from one or more of the big certifiers
> >  but I don't
> >  know if they did, or whether it's in process.
> >  https://www.swe.com/seasafe-subsea-modules/
> >  Alan
> >
> >  Sent from my iPad
> >
> >  On 22/10/2017, at 6:11 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles
> >  <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> >
> >  > Scott and I have been driving ourselves crazy trying to interpret
> >  > the DNVGL rules on subsea electrical cables. We think that the
> >  > essence of the problem is that DNVGL lacks rules specific to
> >  > oil-compensated external battery banks (except being subject to
> >  > "approval by the society"), and to the best of our knowledge DNVGL
> >  > has yet to certify any submersible with external ambient batteries.
> >  >
> >  > One rule in particular is making us scratch our heads.. UWT pt4 ch8
> >  > sec2-1.3 states that "All cables in the outer area shall comply with
> >  > (cargo ship cable rules section). All cables shall have an EARTHED
> >  > braiding or screen around the conductors and be equipped with an
> >  > insulating outer sheet." If this is applicable to the main battery
> >  > cable, damage could potentially create an incredibly dangerous
> >  > ground fault condition where high voltage is passed to the sphere.
> >  > While this requirement makes sense for low-voltage electronics who
> >  > require protection from electromagnetic interference, it appears to
> >  > be nonsense when applied to a high-voltage DC power cable.
> >  >
> >  > Thanks,
> >  >
> >  > -River J. Dolfi
> >
> >  > _______________________________________________
> >  > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> >  > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> >  > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> >
> >  -------------------------
> >  _______________________________________________
> >  Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> >  Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> >  http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 14:49:32 +1300
> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DNVGL
> Message-ID: <14BFB98A-2F58-441F-BF41-17126199E698 at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>
> Scott,
> earth can mean a common return path for electrical current, as
> in a car. That is what I was referring to.
> Didn't know you were going through the whole process. What fun!
> I have kind of given up on it as I am building a lot of stuff myself,
> like lights, thrusters, solenoid ballast valves & electronic contents
> gauge.
> All these would need to go through their type approval process.
> I believe they have a list of DNVGL type approved items that you can
> choose from if you want something off the shelf.
> Something I found amusing was that they said you need 4 days emergency
> food. I asked them what they meant by this, "2 chickens in a chilli bin"
> They specified seven oceans emergency rations!
> Cheers Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On 22/10/2017, at 1:56 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> >
> > Alan,
> >
> > I believe you mean there is no Negative or Positive connected to the
> frame. Earth is neither negative or positive. We are going through the full
> process and have been working with Jonathan Struwe from DNVGL. Our
> batteries are lead acid and are coincidentally the exact same as DSV Alvin
> uses.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Scott Waters
> >
> >> -------Original Message-------
> >> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> >> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DNVGL
> >> Sent: Oct 21 '17 19:38
> >>
> >> Scott, River.
> >> I had a technical advice contract with DNVGL. The reason being so that
> >> I
> >> could build to their specifications without going through their
> >> $100,000
> >> process. Costs you about the same as an expensive lawyer, but it all
> >> depends on how many questions you have.
> >> The electrical rules for submarines over-ride the electrical rules for
> >> ships.
> >> If you were totally familiar with their electrical rules you could
> >> wire up a
> >> super tanker! A lot in there as they have to cover computerised
> >> control.
> >> Sean is right about no earths in submarines.
> >> The electrical through hulls need to be constructed so that if the
> >> cable is
> >> sheared off, no water can ingress. I saw a lot of through-hull
> >> fittings at
> >> UI New Orleans & not all had this ability. I guess if you are building
> >> for a
> >> predominantly ROV market it isn't so necessary.
> >> DNVGL normally have reps at UI. I spent quite a bit of time picking
> >> their
> >> brains when I went there.
> >> They are flexible in some areas & have a golden rule that no one
> >> failure
> >> can result in a major event.
> >> What sort of batteries have you got?
> >> Deep Sea Power & Light have an ABS type certification on their oil
> >> compensated
> >> battery.
> >> http://www.deepsea.com/?s=sea+battery
> >> South West Electronics have a compensated lithium battery. They were
> >> looking to get type approval from one or more of the big certifiers
> >> but I don't
> >> know if they did, or whether it's in process.
> >> https://www.swe.com/seasafe-subsea-modules/
> >> Alan
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >>
> >> On 22/10/2017, at 6:11 AM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles
> >> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Scott and I have been driving ourselves crazy trying to interpret
> >>> the DNVGL rules on subsea electrical cables. We think that the
> >>> essence of the problem is that DNVGL lacks rules specific to
> >>> oil-compensated external battery banks (except being subject to
> >>> "approval by the society"), and to the best of our knowledge DNVGL
> >>> has yet to certify any submersible with external ambient batteries.
> >>>
> >>> One rule in particular is making us scratch our heads.. UWT pt4 ch8
> >>> sec2-1.3 states that "All cables in the outer area shall comply with
> >>> (cargo ship cable rules section). All cables shall have an EARTHED
> >>> braiding or screen around the conductors and be equipped with an
> >>> insulating outer sheet." If this is applicable to the main battery
> >>> cable, damage could potentially create an incredibly dangerous
> >>> ground fault condition where high voltage is passed to the sphere.
> >>> While this requirement makes sense for low-voltage electronics who
> >>> require protection from electromagnetic interference, it appears to
> >>> be nonsense when applied to a high-voltage DC power cable.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> -River J. Dolfi
> >>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> >>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> >>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> >>
> >> -------------------------
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> > _______________________________________________
> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 00:02:06 -0400
> From: Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: psubs list <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Markham submarine
> Message-ID: <a78e2abb-8044-7c1d-69cf-6dd2d004661e at ohiohills.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Does anyone have the entire Popular Science article from June, 1968?? I
> found someone who might be interested in building the thing, but I can't
> get the whole PS thing.? Google books didn't let me find a few of the
> pages.
>
> There's a source for the plans online but the article provides more
> information.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Mike
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 19:42:33 +1300
> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Markham submarine
> Message-ID: <3AD8B768-4DEE-4553-8F06-E5D39348D2A8 at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii
>
> Michael,
> you can buy it on amazon.
> https://www.amazon.com/Popular-Science-Astronaut-Exciting-Adventure/dp/
> B001PL5V2A
> Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On 22/10/2017, at 5:02 PM, Michael Holt via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone have the entire Popular Science article from June, 1968?  I
> found someone who might be interested in building the thing, but I can't
> get the whole PS thing.  Google books didn't let me find a few of the pages.
> >
> > There's a source for the plans online but the article provides more
> information.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> > Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> > http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2017 16:32:12 +0000 (UTC)
> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
>         <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Fw: actuator
> Message-ID: <401687781.1998185.1508689932939 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>  Hi All,Here is a picture of my first electric liner actuator that is
> fully submersible. ?The actuator can lift 50lbs ?at 1 inch per second
> approximately. ?The actuator cost me 50 dollars Canadian to make. ?This one
> has a 4 inch stroke and is well suited for the second sage on the
> manipulator. ? ?I can either air compensate ?or oil compensate the
> actuator. ?I can also put 160 psi inside permanently and use with no
> compensation to an undetermined depth. ?Hank
>    ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: hank pronk <hankpronk at live.ca>To:
> hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>Sent: Sunday, October
> 22, 2017, 10:24:59 AM MDTSubject: Fw: actuator
>
>
>
>
>
> From: xxx xxxxx <mp13 at live.ca>
> Sent: October 22, 2017 10:23 AM
> To: Hendrik
> Subject: actuator?
>
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>
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