[PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.

Sat Jun 24 21:11:45 EDT 2017

Pete,A lottery win would help ,lol.  I will not rotate the sphere, I will launch it with me in it, in the correct orientation.   I will go old school with the batteries and use oil filled lead acid, for simplicity and low cost.  Personally if I were building a K350 variant, I would not  bother with pods, I would have AGM internal batteries.  Again for cost, simplicity and speed of construction, increase the hull diameter to 42 inches while your at it.   Emile has the perfect set up, I would copy that.Hank

    On Saturday, June 24, 2017 7:00 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 WOW ! Are you going to rotate the sphere to have the port ( I assume you mean View Port) where you want it ?
You seem to have cracked quite a few nuts that challenged Psubbers.
What about 

Thru hulls for control, power, life support, comm, etc.
Battery banks ( I'm especially interested in this. I am working on a design of a K350 variant and I don't the like battery pods

Thrusters  and compansation.
I hope you win the lottery some day.

      From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 6:38 PM
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.

Hi Pete,Elementary 12,000  will have a 48 inch by  3.25 in thick occupant sphere 516-70 steel, and it will weigh 8,000 lbs.  The port and hatch will be combined, and the hatch land will be a bolt in place part.  I will machine the conical opening with my own flange facing machine.  If I achieve the accuracy with the land that  I have with Elementary, 3000 that will be great, if not then I will have it re-machined professionally.  The new sphere will go in place of the sphere in Elementary 3000 and all the parts will be swapped out.  That is the plan Hank 

    On Saturday, June 24, 2017 2:22 PM, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Hank, What are your preliminary hull specs for Elementary 12000?
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 6/23/17, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.
 To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 Date: Friday, June 23, 2017, 8:44 PM

 Hank,yes the gas tanks may
 be expensive. You could possibly make
 a series of boxes for the petrol. Make a box out
 ofmarine
 ply, seal it with epoxy, drill a couple of holes in the
 bottom & glue ina flexible membrane
 across the inside bottom of the box. Then seal a top
 on with a
 valve for filling. Just brain storming here!Alan

 Sent
 from my iPad
 On
 24/06/2017, at 1:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
 <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:

 Alan,Those
 look amazing and expensive.  I am not saying it is not
 doable, I am just very nervous due to lack of
 knowledge.  I am sure with proper engineering and safety
 grounding it can be safe.  I would go with CNG type 4 tanks
 before I did gasoline.  I can buy one brand new tank that
 will provide all the buoyancy I need for 2,500-3,000  or I
 can buy a used tank that is current until 2030 for 1,100
 dollars plus shipping.  Also the CNG tank only adds 105 lbs
 plus compressed air weight to the  dry weight, making the
 sub easy to lift onto the deck of my proposed landing
 craft.Hank

    On Friday, June 23,
 2017 6:32 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:

  Hank,I had
 another quick Google on collapsible petrol
 containers.There
 is a huge variety, with manufacturers offering tailor
 made products.Here
 is a news item about them using them on the jetpack. They
 have a collapsible
 fuel tank strapped to their back.http://www.atlinc.com/newsreleases.htmlAlan

  From: hank pronk via
 Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
  To: Personal
 Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>

  Sent: Saturday, June
 24, 2017 11:16 AM
  Subject: Re:
 [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.

 Alan,I am
 still considering that idea but Sean said NO ;-(   It is
 cheap and I would have lots of exta buoyancy.  This is good
 for Elementary 3,000 but not Elementary 12,000.  I want to
 explore all ideas,  and will end up where I started with
 spheres in epoxy ;-)Hank

    On Friday, June 23, 2017 5:01 PM,
 Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:

  Hank,what happened to your
 idea of using composite tanks pressurised with
 air?As long
 as they were in test & you had multiple tanks, with a
 drop weight thatcould compensate for
 one failing, that would be ok wouldn't it?If you were filling to
 3000psi, they wouldn't see external pressure till
 6000ft.You
 could always test the idea at Nuytco.Alan

 Sent from my iPad
 On
 24/06/2017, at 10:17 AM, hank pronk via
 Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:

 LOL,I
 checked on the compressibility and it will compress
 .5 percent, per 1,000 psi  same as hydraulic oil.   I have
 weighed two types of Olive oil today and the specific
 gravity is actually .86g\cc  so it is to heavy.  I
 can't seem to find the light weight stuff .703g\cc
   if you buy in bulk it is 5 dollars per kg  so
 far.I am
 not even sure I can drive down the road with that much gas,
 mind you it would be hidden behind panels on the sub.  Then
 there is the expansion while it sits in the hot weather.
  If the tree huggers heard about it they would crap in
 their pants and chase me down, luckily my truck can out run
 a VW van lol.Hank

    On Friday, June 23,
 2017 3:53 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:

  Hank,is that extra virgin or
 cold pressed? I wonder if it compressesunder
 pressure.Olive oil would be an
 expensive way to go. Whereas petrol costsnothing if you re-use
 it. Not
 sure why you fear gasoline; they let women pump it in to
 their cars
 at gas stations!Cheers Alan
 Sent
 from my iPad
 On
 24/06/2017, at 4:21 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
 <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:

 Alec,Thank
 you, I should have bought those instead of the 11 inch,
 grrrr.  I could go with those floats, but I do hope to
 build the next generation  Elementary sub.  I want to
 figure out the whole foam thing and possibly carry it over
 to the next sub.  Alan has really intrigued me with using
 gasoline, I am terrified of that idea but it has caused me
 to stumble onto another liquid.  In searching I have
 discovered that Olive Oil is even lighter
 than gasoline, and obviously safer for me and the
 environment.  I have no idea yet if it is an option, I only
 stumbled onto it this morning.   If anyone knows of a bad
 reason to use Olive Oil, please let me know.  Olive Oil is
 .703 g\cc and I can put it into plastic containers that
 are .93 g\cc Hank

    On Friday, June 23,
 2017 9:28 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:

  Actually there are
 trawl floats rated to 1800m. That should have you covered
 Hank! Check out #629 below.
 http://trawlworks.com/floats.html

 Best,

 Alec
 On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at
 1:21 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 wrote:
 These guys have 14"
 spherical buoys rated to 800 meters   - $120.00    with
 a positive buoyancy of 39 #    they are not syntactic. 
 The syntactics start at 30" in dia

 http://www.mooringsystems.com/
 buoyancy.htm   Brian 
 --- personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org wrote:

 From: james
 cottrell via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org>
 To:
 Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org>
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic
 foam.
 Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 16:52:56
 +0000 (UTC)

 Deep sea glass floats are rated for 10,000
 psi
 http://teledynebenthos.com/
 product/flotation_instrument_ housings/flotation-glass-
 spheres

 Greg

 From: Alan via
 Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org>
  To: Personal
 Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> 
  Sent: Monday, June 12,
 2017 6:18 PM
  Subject: Re:
 [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.

 Hank,if you
 are getting 3lb of floatation per gallon then you need
 184gallons of gas. 184 x 3 = 552 ( near
 enough).Cheers Alan

 Sent from my iPad
 On 13/06/2017, at 9:50 AM, hank pronk via
 Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

 Alan,I need 550 lbs flotation  and one imp
 gallon of water is 10 lbs and gas is 7 lbs that gives me 3
 lbs buoyancy per imp gallon that means I need 1650 gallons
 of gas.Hank

    On Monday, June 12,
 2017 3:43 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

 Hank,are you sure that's
 right!That would give 1900kg of floatation (
 nearly 2 ton)That is based on gasoline being .71
 of the weight of water. So every litreof gas
 gives you about 290 grams of floatation. Metric
 system is much easier for calculating these
 things.Cheers Alan

 Sent from my iPad
 On 12/06/2017, at 11:42 PM, hank pronk via
 Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

 Alan,Those
 are nice, I can see other uses for them.  If I use
 gasoline, I would need about  1,750 imperial gallons for
 Elementary.    I was mistaken about the  liquid paraffin,
 gasoline is better. 

    On Sunday, June 11,
 2017 11:36 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

  Maybe
 something like this collapsable plastic fuel
 tank, inside a protective fibreglass housing, or
 a grate arrangement.  https://www.bdoutdoors.com/
 atl-fuel-bladder-extra/Alan
 Sent from my iPad
 On 12/06/2017, at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via
 Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

 Alan,Yes I
 have, it is very simple and effective.  There are of coarse
 some hazardous logistical problems not to
 mention environmental concerns.  I would opt for
 diesel fuel to reduce the fire hazard.  Any time you have
 plastic and gas it is dangerous.  Last week I did a barge
 job replacing dock piles.  When I walked up and down the
 plastic dock floats, every time I touched the steel piles I
 got a spark.  Actually Liquid paraffin is even better at
 .8g\ccHank 

    On Sunday, June 11,
 2017 5:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

 Hank,have you looked at using
 gasoline?More volume required for the same
 floatation as syntactic foam,but apart from the
 holding tanks it would cost you nothing, as
 youcould use it after the dive. If you designed
 right you could fill the tanksat your
 destination.Alan

 Sent from my iPad
 On 12/06/2017, at 6:03 AM, hank pronk via
 Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

 Greg,that sounds good,
 I would love to find a more cost effective foam.  I still
 want to build one more sub that goes much deeper, but the
 foam cost is not manageable.  I estimate I can build a
  Titanic capable sub  for 100,000 and 80,000 of that is
 foam.  ;-(Hank

    On Sunday, June 11,
 2017 8:29 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

  Greg,There has to be good reason to make foam by
 other means than standard practices.   Cost would be the
 biggest reason, and using wax will probably work, but is
 there a saving?  Using wax means you have to use a
 deeper rated sphere to offset the loss of reinforcement
 provided by the resin.  I have no idea what the cost
 difference would be.  Maybe the cost is still much
 better.  When I look at Cliff's report, the resin is
 not the expensive part.  Perhaps the direction should be,
 to look for a replacement for the spheres.  In Cliff's
 report it shows the resin triples the sphere's
 performance.  That implies that the true strength comes
 from the resin.  Maybe a sawdust resin or a styrofoam
 granule resin is worth looking at also.  Maybe it is a
 simple as air entrained resin?Fun to
 think about anyways.Hank 

    On Sunday, June 11,
 2017 6:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

  Hi Scott,Thanks
 for the offer, but I need foam for 3,000
 feet.Hank 

    On Saturday, June 10,
 2017 9:03 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> wrote:

 Hank,
 Hola from Costa Rica!
 Depends on if they are glass or
 carbon fiber spheres and what size they are. They are all
 pretty durable. We are actually cutting up the foam on
 Pisces and reattaching it to get the shapes we
 want. 
 I do have a
 ton of syntactic foam that is cert to 400m that I'd sell
 you for super cheap. Like all of it for $200
 Thanks,Scott
 Waters

 Sent from my
 U.S. Cellular® Smartphone
 -------- Original message
 --------From: hank pronk via
 Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> Date: 6/10/17  12:38 PM  (GMT-06:00)
 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
 <personal_submersibles at psubs.
 org> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic
 foam. 
 I have an idea, but not sure if it will work. 
 My idea is to fill a neutrally buoyant container with macro
 and micro spheres.  After the container is as full as
 possible, then fill with an environmentally friendly oil. 
 This would be more buoyant than using a resin and less
 complicated and cheaper.  My concern is, how well will the
 spheres stand up against breaking from being in contact with
 the other spheres and the container.   Are these spheres
 delicate?
  Hank______________________________
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