[PSUBS-MAILIST] Submersible Rules

Thu Jul 20 03:01:08 EDT 2017

Thanks Jon, 
you should be a politician!
With regard to a category for non classed subs that are built commercially; 
this is an issue encountered in other industries. 
You can build a boat in your garage & sell it on ebay, but if you build
50 of them then you are categorised as  commercial, however the same boat will
now need to comply with industry standards. 
Graeme Hawke is pushing the boundaries with his unclassified subs; his latest dragon submersible has I think 24 hrs life support instead of 3 or 4 days that ABS or GL require! 
Our current certification regulations may be extreme for shallow diving vessels, 
but relevant for commercial deep diving vessels. 
I wouldn't want to be draughting any rules, as on the one hand you don't want an 
unsafe sub taking an unwitting public down; but what is safe? In other underwater sports 
such as scuba diving, you can buy equipment that numerous people die using every 
year (146 World wide 2016).  
There is the bionic dolphin that could potentially dive under the water at speed & 
entangle in an obstacle giving you a short period of time to get out if you survived
the impact. Also in the mix are ambient subs, wet subs & scooters!
Would be pleased for you to get involved with the decision process if you felt
inclined!
Regards Alan

Sent from my iPad

> On 20/07/2017, at 4:34 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> 
> Alan,
> 
> Thanks for reaching out and forwarding us Will's response.  There's a lot here to consider and the current applicable US law is complicated requiring careful reading and interpretation, but I have some initial thoughts.  I also want to be careful not to suggest that the Rev 1.0 Operating Categories chart forwarded to us are anything more than an initial "stake in the ground", however it does show us where the current thought process is leading and also is all we have to digest and consider at this time.  First, let me address some contradictions that exist between the email and the MTS category chart.
> 
> Quote...there is no need to change much in the Psubs community.
> Quote...the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want
> Unfortunately the MTS chart does not preserve our rights at all, and will remove our freedom to do some of what we want.  For example, under current US law all K-boat type submarines are able to work commercially as a Subchapter-C UNINSPECTED vessel.  So if a boat owner wants to give you $100 to find something they dropped overboard, or you work a deal with a harbor master to inspect boat mooring footings, or some town administration wants to hire you to take photos of mussel invasion at the local pond, you can do that legally.  The suggested change by MTS takes that opportunity away completely.  Why?  What reason is there for taking away the opportunity to make money with your private vessel?
> 
> Quote...recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as no money changes hand.
> This is an oversimplification of current law.  As a Subchapter-C UNINSPECTED vessel, all kinds of money can change hands.  True, we can't take passengers for hire, but we can certainly be hired by someone that wants us to perform a task.  And why not.  From a functional perspective, shall we believe there is some difference between spending time 30 feet underwater watching fish swim by as a recreational "past time" and spending time 30 feet underwater filming the bottom for an underwater survey that's gong to fetch us a fee?  The changes suggested by MTS take this opportunity away completely.
> 
> Quote...The moment there is a single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger for Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine.
> I'm not sure Will meant this the way he wrote it.  Whether an airplane, train, automobile, commercial submarine, research submarine, tourist submarine, or private submarine, society has good reason to ensure that vessels which carry passengers for hire meet strict standards.  The issue I see here is that some of the requirements for vessels that carry passengers for hire are simply not realistic for small submarines.  For example, 46 CFR 180.70(a)(1) would require a K-boat to carry a 20 inch life buoy.  Perhaps this is what Will meant to allude to, and if so it is a much deeper topic than what the MTS chart provides for.
> 
> It is not clear to me what Will means when he speaks of the need for companies to be able to operate without regulations if they are classed, presumably by an industry accepted classing entity such as ABS, GL, etc.  The USCG regulations appear to be primarily operational (life preservers, flares, etc) whereas vessel certification does not address these issues.
> 
> One point I absolutely disagree with is the statement that there is a need for a separate category for non-classed submarines built by commercial entities because "this is NOT a PSUB anymore".  As I stated in a previous email, from a regulatory perspective there is absolutely no recordable difference between a non-classed submarine fabricated commercially in a multi-million dollar facility and a non-classed submarine fabricated in a two stall garage by an amateur.  This is the beauty of certification in that it not only identifies vessels which have been recorded as meeting specific standards, it also equalizes all vessels that have not been recorded as meeting those standards.  This must be so or else certification is rendered meaningless.  By what standards would we assess that a non-classed commercially built submarine is somehow better than an non-classed amateur built submarine?  Let us suppose we do a blind test...we will take a non-classed commercially built submarine and a non-classed amateur built submarine and sit them in a parking lot.  We will invite an ABS inspector to that parking lot, point to the two submarines and say "Here are two non-classed submarines.  You are an ABS inspector, please point out the better built, safer submarine."  If such inspector cannot, or will not do so, there is no difference between those submarines from a regulatory perspective.
> 
> Now, as per the MTS chart itself there are a couple of things that stand out. 
> 
> A separate category for tourist submarines is going to prove difficult I think.  There is currently no definition for a "tourist" in the law and I think defining one will be problematic.  A tourist is probably always a passenger for hire, but is a passenger for hire always a tourist?  And if a tourist is differentiated from a passenger for hire, under what rules does a submarine operate if they have on board both a tourist and a passenger for hire?  I think the justification for separating out tourist submarines based upon the idea that having just one passenger for hire forces a small vessel to operate under the rules of an Atlantis submarine is somewhat weak.  A better approach would be to exempt certain sized submarines from certain equipment required under passenger carrying rules based upon the size of the vessel.
> 
> The differentiation between Commercial, Private, and home-built seems unnecessary.  What is the difference between "Private" and "Home-built" submarines?  Here again, this seems to be an attempt to perceptually diminish the integrity of a home-built submarine.  I counter that such an assumption is arbitrary between unclassed vessels.  Furthermore, why should unclassed submarines not be able to perform commercial work.  Classing has no bearing upon whether a vessel is capable of performing a certain task for compensation.  That determination should be left to the parties involved.  Is it not obvious to anyone else that these MTS suggested changes ensure that only those entities which have the means to class a vessel will have the supply of vessels that are authorized to do commercial work?  Am I the only one that sees a conflict of interest in such rules being proposed by an organization that is primarily made up of, and caters to, commercial entities that have the means to produce classed submarines?
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7/18/2017 5:52 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I recently emailed Will Kohnen from the position of a foreigner concerned
>> that any submersible regulations that his organization draughted would 
>> eventually be adopted by my Country.
>> I also mentioned lack of consultation with Psubs. Below is his reply.
>> 
>> I am extremely sensitive to the Psubs issues and there is no need to change
>> much in the Psubs community. It is rather everybody else that needs
>> attention. There are many Psubs members that participate in the dialogue and
>> also talk with Jon. I would encourage Psubs to come and participate and you
>> may find life is a happy place. I don't know what else to say.
>> 
>> The US Coast Guard current regulations are reasonably clear that any
>> self-built, recreational submersible can do whatever they want, as long as
>> no money changes hand. This works for Psubs, no problem, and there is no
>> reason to change that. There is the slight footnote in the regulations that
>> notwithstanding, the Captains of the port can ignore the rules and decide to
>> allow or deny operations as they see fit. This can lead to a lot of
>> confusion and inconsistency. Again, the problem is not with Psubs (although
>> the tenure is tenuous), but with the rest of the industry that is trying to
>> make a viable economic development in the field. The moment there is a
>> single person in the sub that pays $1, it is considered a "Passenger for
>> Hire" and you are treated like an Atlantis submarine. That leaves an awfully
>> large gap between Psubs and Atlantis and to suggest that the entire industry
>> has to position itself on one side or the other is a bit lacking in
>> granularity. The industry has moved and evolved since 1993.
>> 
>> So, No - the Psubs will always remain free to do what they want, and it may
>> even be helpful for the world at large that this freedom be better defined
>> so as to secure this right. In the US, since the US Coast guard has come
>> under Homeland Security, the freedom of Psubs (and everybody else) is one
>> incident away from serious "Broad-level" regulation, written by folks in
>> govt that really don't give a hoot for the sub industry. So it may not be a
>> bad idea to be pre-emptive.
>> 
>> That's all.
>> What we are discussing in much greater detail is the need to allow companies
>> to operate "Without" Coast Guard regulations if the sub is Classed and
>> carries less that 6 "Occupants", and where we define what an "Occup0ant" is,
>> as NOT a passenger. This would open up the economic feasibility for
>> companies to do submarine work and charge money without the egregious Coast
>> Guard certification (which still remains perfectly fine and applicable if
>> you want to run a 40 passenger sub and carry innocent tourists underwater).
>> 
>> There should also be a separate category for companies making subs that are
>> made commercially but which are not Classed, and also carry 6 "occupants" or
>> less. If you build a number of subs and you sell them commercially,
>> unclassed, this is NOT a Psub anymore, or at least there needs to be a clear
>> line. When Oceangate or Deepflight build subs that cannot be classed, for
>> one reason or another, these are not Psubs. Where do they fit in the
>> spectrum? Due to the economic impact and higher public profile of such subs,
>> it behooves everyone to pay some attention to the proper "Categorization" of
>> each group so that they are not all treated with one broad brush. This is
>> fairly basic industry positioning for the well being of the industry and the
>> protection of each group.
>> 
>> I don't think the Coast Guard in any nation can properly sort that out, not
>> in the US, NZ, AUS, Europe or China....
>> So that leaves us to think, be pragmatic, invest some time, energy, goodwill
>> and work in good faith so we may end up with a regulatory environment that
>> lets the entire MZUV industry become economically viable, while also
>> preserving the freedom of the hobbyist.
>> 
>> I've attached a rough categorization of sub types to include the "Atlantis
>> Pax" subs (remaining as they are, the "Psubs" as they are today and added,
>> Commercial Sub, Uninspected Subs and Submarines, which were never attended
>> to and which may in the future.
>> 
>> The door is wide open at the conference and I hope Psubs will increase its
>> participation beyond a handful of individuals.
>> 
>> There is no big rush but it is worth pushing forward. The govt's everywhere
>> would be more than happy to find a template they can adopt and use as a
>> baseline for their handling of these issues.
>> 
>> Again, thank you for reaching out and I hope we get to discuss this in more
>> detail as we go.
>> All the best
>> Will
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>> 
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> 
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