[PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
MerlinSub@t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Sun Jul 16 16:13:49 EDT 2017
There are many dead aircaft'sin the ocean,
but there are no dead submarine's in the sky..
:-)
-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
Datum: 2017-07-16T02:46:00+0200
Von: "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion"
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Hank,
I agree no rules; it's like putting traffic lights in at the junction of
two
metal roads in the middle of Alaska. If there is no traffic it doesn't
justify it. I mean how many submarines do you see buzzing about!
Aircraft can fall out of the air & kill innocent members of the public,
submarines just sink, so even that comparison isn't warranted.
Only issue I can see is surfacing, where you might come up in front
of a speed boat. Diving in shipping lanes or near underwater dam
outlets where you may get sucked in & block a pipe!
Alan
Sent from my iPad
On 16/07/2017, at 12:16 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
wrote:
Alan,
I think we might be over reacting if we think Psubs are dead with
rules. I just had a look at Canadian rules for ammeter built aircraft.
It is not a big deal, in fact you have to demonstrate that at least
50% of the aircraft is home built. The ministry will consider any
engine you want except solid rock fuel LOL
Basically you have to build with proper materials, demonstrate a
design that is airworthy and have it inspected.
It would not be the end of Psubs if we had to follow these rules, witch
I highly doubt in Canada anyways. Not that I want rules--that is the
last thing I want.
Hank
On Saturday, July 15, 2017 3:16 PM, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
I reiterate, this will be the death of home built non commercial
personal submarines.
Keith T.
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Date: 7/15/17 1:54 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
Hank,
you mightn't have seen Scott's post so have copied it below.
The MTS (Marine Technology Society) has been around since 1963 & has a
sub committee MUV (Manned Underwater
Vehicles). This committee is headed by Will Kohnen
mailto:willkohnen at hydrospacegroup.com
<mailto:willkohnen at hydrospacegroup.com>
They have been approached by authorities to give them some guidelines /
rules on how to deal with submersibles, & MUV
have set up a committee to do this. So the stick has already been
poked in the beehive! As Jon says, as a group we should
have been approached for our input early on; but we still have an
opportunity to insist on being involved!
Regards Alan
Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a
safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human
occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep
submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group
hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the
enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates.
Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an
"Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in
the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation,
would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of
starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand
submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us
by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to
contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The
safety officer from my company (Pisces VI) is on the board as well as
alot of very smart under water professionals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
Seems, poking a bee hive with a stick is bad! Why do anything? Alan
just say "In Canada, nobody bothers Psubs" This all started because
a group of attention seekers built a bathtub submarine for the wrong
reasons. I don't think (hope) they will get hurt-- did you see the
look on that kids face when he was having trouble--I bet he needed to
change his shorts when he got to shore. A good scare will stop them
from continuing and maybe they will build a space ship out of a hot
water tank, before something bad happens.
Hank
On Saturday, July 15, 2017 5:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Jon,
any thoughts on where we want to go with this?
My interest is that as Scott pointed out, other countries will follow
the U.S.
in this regard.
This could well have a positive outcome in that what was a grey area
that had
authorities scratching their heads, can now be clarified & the
regulations
quoted. It would make it easy for me & pacify the authorities here if I
could
say in America..... Do there have to be more rules or just a
classification of
submersibles as being under the same guidelines as other boats of a
similar size?
Regards Alan
Sent from my iPad
On 15/07/2017, at 2:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Jon,
My two bits for what it’s worth. Potentially hampering rules,
legislation, regulations, etc., are just what we don’t need more of . .
I am a life-member of MTS, but I think that Psubs simply asking to be
a ‘primary contributor’ would miss the point – BTW, who asked MTS to
become involved in subs – personal or commercial, in the first place?
As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded
with world-wide certification agency requirements – I’d hate to see yet
another player get their foot in the door!
Phil Nuytten
From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
OK get your point Jon on not being invited.
Lets insist in our inclusion.
Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by
in the
boat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to.
You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules
nobody
will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The
G.L. rules
& it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if
you go
down the "Rules " path, where does it end!
In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long
as you don't
injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees
without a
safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a
10 year
period 10% of members of the hang glider association died from
accidents.
If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the
rule makers
would step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine
& a small
boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if
somebody
surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy &
just
address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes!
Cheers Alan
Sent from my iPad
On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Alan,
My thoughts.
Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to
MTS. As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they
have attended ours. Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for
MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines
without first notifying us that they were doing so and without
inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. Having heard of it
second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to
feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? What
weight is given to our input? How do we resolve disputes? Is
there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our
contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who
really understand submarines" on their committee?
Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing
this situation. How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the
rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for
government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that
affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a
unifying set of regulations. Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat
Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have
to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by
the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those
disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making
activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute
their ideas. Sound like a good, rational, logical plan?
I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past
21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. The only reaction I
have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in
regulating personal submarines. So why is MTS so intent on
creating rules that restrict personal submarines? That is not a
rhetorical question.
Jon
On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:
Jon,
Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will
Konen.
Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire
to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers
involved
in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance &
Lance!
Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs
( I declined),
so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he
heads the
submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by
groups
like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have
been
wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying
to avoid
it.
In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is
surfacing,
where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft.
Perhaps
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