[PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform

Sat Jul 15 17:15:46 EDT 2017

I reiterate, this will be the death of home built non commercial personal submarines. 
Keith T.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Date: 7/15/17  1:54 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform 
Hank,you mightn't have seen Scott's post so have copied it below.The MTS (Marine Technology Society) has been around since 1963 & has a sub committee MUV (Manned UnderwaterVehicles). This committee is headed by Will Kohnen mailto:willkohnen at hydrospacegroup.comThey have been approached by authorities to give them some guidelines / rules on how to deal with submersibles, & MUV have set up a committee to do this.  So the stick has already been poked in the beehive! As Jon says, as a group we shouldhave been approached for our input early on; but we still have an opportunity to insist on being involved!Regards Alan
Just a FYI, the HOV group at Underwater Intervention has put together a safety board to make national rules and regulations on all human occupied submarines. They are proposing breing back the deep submergence pilot association to be the official not for profit group hosting the proposals. When they finish, the coast gaurd will be the enforcement agency. They are following alot of how the FAA regulates. Home made submarines that are not classed would fall under an "Experemental" category just like ultralite aircraft. This will be in the USA only for now, but any countries wanting to enforce regulation, would be encouraged to just adopt the same rules as the USA instead of starting from scratch. It is smart that people who really understand submarines are making the rules instead of the rules being made for us by lawmakers after a imminet accedent happens. If anyone would like to contribute, Will Khonen from Interspace is heading up the group. The safety officer from my company  (Pisces VI) is on the board as well as alot of very smart under water professionals.

       From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2017 11:58 PM
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform

Seems, poking a bee hive with a stick is bad!  Why do anything?  Alan just say  "In Canada, nobody bothers Psubs"    This all started because a group of attention seekers built a bathtub submarine for the wrong reasons.  I don't think (hope)  they will get hurt-- did you see the look on that kids face when he was having trouble--I bet he needed to change his shorts when he got to shore.  A good scare will stop them from continuing and maybe they will build a space ship out of a hot water tank, before something bad happens.Hank 

    On Saturday, July 15, 2017 5:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Jon,any thoughts on where we want to go with this?My interest is that as Scott pointed out, other countries will follow the U.S.in this regard. This could well have a positive outcome in that what was a grey area that hadauthorities scratching their heads, can now be clarified & the regulationsquoted. It would make it easy for me & pacify the authorities here if I couldsay in America..... Do there have to be more rules or just a classification of submersibles as being under the same guidelines as other boats of a similar size?Regards Alan

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On 15/07/2017, at 2:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles  <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Jon,
My two bits for what it’s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation, 
regulations, etc., are just what we don’t need more of . . I am a life-member of 
MTS, but I think that Psubs  simply asking to be a ‘primary contributor’ 
would miss the point – BTW, who asked MTS  to become involved in subs – 
personal or commercial, in the first place?
As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with 
world-wide certification agency requirements – I’d hate to see yet another 
player get their foot in the door!

Phil Nuytten

From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles 

Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General 
Discussion 
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to 
inform

OK get your point Jon on not being invited.
Lets insist in our inclusion.
Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers 
have to abide by in the
boat building industry, that a private boat builder 
doesn't have to.
You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you 
make them rules nobody
will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just 
to interpret The G.L. rules
& it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. 
So as Carsten says if you go
down the "Rules " path, where does it end!
In general society doesn't care too much if you kill 
yourself as long as you don't
injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children 
can climb trees without a 
safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America 
I read that over a 10 year
period 10% of members of the hang glider association 
died from accidents.
If they were injuring others in the process that 
would be where the rule makers
would step in. As I have said, the only difference 
between a submarine & a small
boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from 
passengers) is if somebody 
surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the 
law makers happy & just 
address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving 
in shipping lanes!
Cheers Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
wrote:

  Alan,

  My thoughts.

  Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, 
  neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS.  As organizations, we have attended 
  their conventions and they have attended ours.  Therefore, I find 
  it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting 
  personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and 
  without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor.  Having heard of 
  it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel 
  assured that our input and contributions will be valued?  What weight is 
  given to our input?  How do we resolve disputes?  Is there a voting 
  system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because 
  they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their 
  committee?

  Logic has to make sense 
  in all directions so let's try reversing this situation.  How about PSUBS 
  starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be 
  used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include 
  rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a 
  unifying set of regulations.  Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, 
  Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the 
  rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going 
  to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they 
  hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them 
  they can contribute their ideas.  Sound like a good, rational, logical 
  plan?

  I have reached out to the 
  CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship 
  with PSUBS.  The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they 
  are not interested in regulating personal submarines.  So why is MTS so 
  intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines?  That is not 
  a rhetorical question.

  Jon

  On Friday, July 14, 
  2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
  wrote:

  Jon,
  Scott said that if anyone wanted to 
  contribute to contact Will Konen.
  Perhaps you could approach him on our 
  behalf & convey our desire
  to be involved in the process. There 
  were a couple of Psubbers involved
  in the submersible side of UI when I 
  was there. I think Vance & Lance!
  Will had a slot to fill in the 
  lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined),
  so he seems to have a pretty positive 
  attitude toward us. As he heads the
  submersible side of the UI he has been 
  a target & questioned by groups
  like Coast Guard about "what do we do 
  about submarines". They have been
  wanting him to draught regulations for 
  years & he has been trying to avoid
  it. 
  In my thinking, the only real issue 
  with submersible operations is surfacing,
  where a submarine may come up in the 
  path of a surface craft. Perhaps

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