[PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform

Sat Jul 15 01:15:32 EDT 2017

Hi Phil,
Obviously you have way more experience than any of us in this regard. 
I definitely agree that NO ONE wants to be forced to follow any government mandates to pursue a hobby. Even the "bathtub" guys. If they are dumb enough to go to the bottom of crush depth and get injured, well then that is really just them being dumb and they sort of get what they deserve. 
And I also definitely see your point that being a contributor may actually move us closer to regulation. 
I think a relevant question at this point is do you think that regulations on personal submarines will be mandated at some point? 
If so, is there something that we could/should do in the interim?
I personally believe that it's your life and your responsibility to be safe. 
Maybe just offering a dialogue and a place to go for interested parties is enough. 
Thoughts?

Thanks!
Best personal regards
Greg

> On Jul 14, 2017, at 10:33 PM, Phil Nuytten via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> 
> Jon,
> My two bits for what it’s worth. Potentially hampering rules, legislation, regulations, etc., are just what we don’t need more of . . I am a life-member of MTS, but I think that Psubs  simply asking to be a ‘primary contributor’ would miss the point – BTW, who asked MTS  to become involved in subs – personal or commercial, in the first place?
> As as a commercial submersible manufacturer, Nuytco is already loaded with world-wide certification agency requirements – I’d hate to see yet another player get their foot in the door!
>  
> Phil Nuytten
>  
>  
> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:33 PM
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
>  
> OK get your point Jon on not being invited.
> Lets insist in our inclusion.
> Carsten is right. There are rules that manufacturers have to abide by in the
> boat building industry, that a private boat builder doesn't have to.
> You can point to ABS & GL as guidlines but if you make them rules nobody
> will comply. I spent $3000- on technical advice just to interpret The G.L. rules
> & it would cost $100,000 to get a sub certified. So as Carsten says if you go
> down the "Rules " path, where does it end!
> In general society doesn't care too much if you kill yourself as long as you don't
> injure anybody else in the process. In N.Z. children can climb trees without a
> safety harness, helmet or net underneath. In America I read that over a 10 year
> period 10% of members of the hang glider association died from accidents.
> If they were injuring others in the process that would be where the rule makers
> would step in. As I have said, the only difference between a submarine & a small
> boat with regard to the safety of others ( aside from passengers) is if somebody
> surfaced in the path of a speeding boat; so keep the law makers happy & just
> address that issue, perhaps include a ban on diving in shipping lanes!
> Cheers Alan
>  
>  
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On 15/07/2017, at 3:30 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Alan,
>> 
>> My thoughts.
>> 
>> Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS.  As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours.  Therefore, I find it rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor.  Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued?  What weight is given to our input?  How do we resolve disputes?  Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee?
>>  
>> Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation.  How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations.  Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas.  Sound like a good, rational, logical plan?
>>  
>> I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS.  The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines.  So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines?  That is not a rhetorical question.
>>  
>> Jon
>> 
>> 
>> On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Jon,
>> Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen.
>> Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire
>> to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved
>> in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance!
>> Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined),
>> so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the
>> submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups
>> like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been
>> wanting him to draught regulations for    years & he has been trying to avoid
>> it.
>> In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing,
>> where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps
>> some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be
>> in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the
>> submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use.
>> In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howling
>> gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket;
>> so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be
>> relevant.
>> Alan
>>  
>>  
>>  
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